which side of paradise are you on

this side or that side

just wondering

cuz this world sure seems like a paradise some times

blink and it could just disappear

but if i put toothpicks to prop my eyelids up (willingly)

i see it more
and more
and more

so which side of paradise are you on


this side

or that side

I see the Paradise that we could have, but I am NOT blind and we NO longer have the Paradise this Planet was meant to be. Every where I go I see SICK people doing SICK things. Are some of these SICK people capable of doing good things and do some of these SICK people do good things?

Yes, but it's NOT enough.

We should NOT settle!

We should Not become complacent!

We should be the change we want to see and a whole lot more.

What have you done today to share our message?

Have you saved anyone's life today?

Have you made this world a better place other than just looking through the world through rose colored glasses?

Have you done all you could do to put an end to all of the NEEDLESS Suffering on this Planet or are you in DENIAL and think that there is NO Suffering or there is NO Right or Wrong?

How can anyone see any Paradise on this Planet when 40,000 children die every day of starvation?

How can anyone see any Paradise on this Planet when 262,000,000 people were murdered by their Governments in the last century?

Oh, but we’re NOT supposed to be talking about Politics - we don’t want the Sheep to be talking about the Wolves. Of course, the Wolves are in Sheep’s Clothing and most people can’t see their disguise, so they defend the Wolf that they think is best and then, they get offended whenever anyone attacks their Wolf.

So are you really doing enough to make a difference or are you just a Useful Idiot?

Peace and Love..........John

If you are in a forum pontificating about politics, or anything else, you are not doing enough. I am not doing enough. None of us are doing enough.

John, once you know that the house is on fire, then what? Either put out the fire or run the hell away from it. Anything but sitting and discussing how much destruction the fire is doing.

Buddha gave the Fire Sermon. He was saying: "Wake up!"

You speak on these issues but do you really feel you are accomplishing what you have set out to do? As you note, you tell some people things and they become offended. This is because they're just not ready yet. Some people cling to Team Whoever because the idea of separation is still tantalizing on some level.

The ego loves to notice how Other is different and does not like to find unity. Personally, I love being different and I love originality but I also try to see Oneness at the end of the day.

Hey BW,

Yes, we are Herd Animals and yes, it’s hard to break away from the Herd. But when the Herd is heading for a cliff, we need to turn the Herd around. When the Ship is heading for an Iceberg we need Trim Tabs to turn the Rudder on the Rudder and I’m still trying to find the best way for us to reach the Tipping Point.

So please take my Raw Vegan Survey - [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Peace and Love..........John

Here's a follow-up on my posts above...

When I mentioned that 262,000,000 people were murdered by their Governments in the last century, I forgot to mention that that was during peacetime.

I'd also like to add that the Tipping Point is the Rudder and all of us have the POTENTIAL to be Trim Tabs!!!

And finally for janetc, take my Raw Vegan Survey - [www.rawfoodsupport.com] and tell me I'm NOT doing enough!!!

Peace and Love..........John

john rose



to me, paradise is giving my best shot and having no regrets
i didn't know any other kind of paradise existed

john rose


<<Have you made this world a better place other than just looking through the world through rose colored glasses? >>

i certainly hope i have ( otherwise, the years of sacrifices i have made would have been in vain LOL

i appreciate your compliment that i see things through rose colored glasses. yep. this is absolutely true. thank you!
even when taking action hurts ( i could get tired, irritated, angry, ,feel its too much work, never enough time, very little "external" rewards etc.), it still ULTIMATELY feels FANTASTIC because when sacrifices are made from one's own choice, that is self sovereignty and when i know WHY i'm doing something regardless of how i FEEL ( short term), there is always a profound and very deep undertow of satisfaction that overrides all the disappointments and frustrations

its like a mother , when she is giving birth, it could be hours and hours of labor and pain and excruciating brutality

but deep inside, she could be THRILLED during the entire process of sheer horror because she keeps the ultimate vision in mind

so the mother, even during childbirth, is in paradise

she is not ignorant to all the risks, pain, sacrifices etc.

she is in gratitude
and works extremely hard to remain in that sacred placce

Your mother giving birth analogy is a perfect example of being in Plato’s Cave because Life is an Illusion. The mother who is in PAIN during childbirth is Ignorant because she is NOT supposed to be in PAIN. I love your attitude and I love your perspective, but we CANNOT IGNORE the fact that people are SUFFERING NEEDLESSLY because they are IGNORANT!!! This is the Flaw in Eastern Philosophy and is also the Flaw in many aspects of “Spirituality”!

Once again, I resonate with your perspective because we both understand the WHYs and we both have tons of Empathy, but we must do more than just look for something Positive amongst the Negatives - we must understand that the Negative is part of our Feedback System and it behooves us to take Responsibility and Correct our Mistakes.

Peace and Love..........John

I am going to point out that neither of you have given birth.

When giving birth I didn't personally go through the pain so many women talk about but I find the statements above to be a little disrepectful to the experiences of those women who do.

Surely there is another example, one that you have gone through yourself, that you could use. No?

I'm all about that Byron Katie loving what is business too but la, pushing a human out of your vag is not to be taken lightly folks.

Lots of women get offended when a man talks about something that they haven’t experienced, like child birth or menstruation, and yes, coco, I remember our past conversations about the latter. I also understand my limitations, but I have coached several women during a raw pregnancy and I remember you recently commenting on your relatively PAIN-Free birth experiences and I KNOW that PAIN is relative to how TOXIC we are and most women are TOXIC because they are eating COOKED FOOD and that’s why most women experience so much PAIN!!!

In nature, cats purr when they give birth as Herbert Shelton points out in CHAPTER XXVII – “Effects of Cooking” in “The Science and Fine Art of Food and Nutrition - The Hygienic System: Volume II”…

“The British sociologist, Anthony Ludovici, recounts an instructive experience with cats. He bred cats for the purpose of studying the process of birth. He discovered that cats actually enjoy the process of birth, that they purr while their kittens are being born. Mr. Ludovici realizing that animals never cook their foods, took it for granted that his cats should have raw meat. Then, on one occasion, he was called away to the country and left one of his female cats in the care of some friends. When her kittens were born shortly after his return, her flanks heaved helplessly for several hours and she groaned almost like a human being. He despaired of her ever delivering her kittens. Inquiry revealed that his friend had fed the cat on cooked meat, vegetables, bread and milk and milk puddings. Further investigation revealed that not merely the happiness of cats during parturition but of other animals also, is inseparably connected with optimum condition during gestation--pregnancy. He found he was able to produce pleasurable or painful parturition at will by feeding his cats in different manners and keeping them indoors or outdoors. He discovered that he could do the same thing with bitches and, upon inquiry among shepherds, discovered the same thing among sheep. He tells of difficulties among cows and horses fed in certain very unwholesome ways. I have never seen difficulty in cows, and I have watched the birth of many calves, but these cows were supplied with good pasturage and were outdoors all through gestation. Not merely raw flesh foods, but uncooked foods of all kinds, are best for food.”

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2013 04:46AM by John Rose.

coco

i didn't give birth
but there are other things that are just as painful ( if not more painful)
than physically giving birth
suffering is suffering and childbirth does not have the monopoly on that domain
and people are still happy do do things that activate stress (pain, suffering)
on the surface, a lot of ordeals are painful
but if it is in alignment with one's principles/values
then, there is also a concurrent happiness
this has been my experience
i'm not saying anything mind blowing here
pretty easy and incredibly basic to understand

though i'll admit
its not the easiest thing to experience ( probably the most difficult)
but the happiness cannot be denied
it is the reason for doing anything
ultimately

if i am doing something very difficult ( and "stressful"
and concentrate my focus to WHY i'm doing something
then, there is a sort of joy
that is hard to describe
the stress may still be there
but the joy can be greater

being true to self
and living in integrity ( whatever that looks like)

living in the solution
going towards one's goals
expressing one's principles in action

these things are not easy
there are moments of total joy
but usually there is a mix of stress/pain and joy

and nobody sees that joy
unless they are you
and know what your values/principles/goals are

its a private joy

the high of doing one's absolute best
with what one has
making one's OWN decisions
dealing with the consequences

in doing so
you own yourself
completely
no matter who you work for
or who your clients are



john rose

in regards to your pointing out that there is suffering in this world
and a lot of extreme injustices
this is obvious to anyone who takes a pico second to simply observe what is going on globally

suffering, pain, stress, fear are natural and even appropriate responses (positive feedback, as you pointed out) to life's numerous exigencies

these cannot be denied
however, i do not bow down to negativity and am not under the illusion that paying homage to anger is the same as rolling up one's sleeves and actually doing something about it

these are two ENTIRELY different things

hell is observing all the suffering that is taking place
and creating a conflagration of insanity by constantly spewing the obvious

paradise is being aware of such things
and doing one's best in the midst of such insanity

John, I was raw with the first and totally and completely not raw or even veg with the second. I did not have the pain that many women talk about either time.

Ver, it is very shaming to tell a woman that the pain she experiences during childbirth is in any way her fault. I'm just sayin'.

I think we would all experience pain if we were to break an arm or leg bone. What we do with that is something else entirely but to say the pain could not exist, well, I'm not sure that's so realistic.

coco


<< Ver, it is very shaming to tell a woman that the pain she experiences during childbirth is in any way her fault. I'm just sayin'.>>

i don't know how to respond to this since i don't know what you are talking about
where did i tell a woman that the pain she experiences during birth is in any way her fault? the mere notion is absolutely ludicrous

I am referencing the following quote, that's what I objected too and felt that you were missing the point of. I don't disagree with your assessment about a woman knowing she is labouring for her ultimate gain when giving birth, certainly. I'm saying that talking about the birth experience from the outside is, imo, ridiculous. And yes, plenty of things are painful. But birth is... indescribable. The body literally opens between two plains of existance, becomes a portal, a doorway, a vessel, something "other". It's not "pain" in the typical sense of the word but it is huge. I have never actually read a sufficiently eloquent expression of that experience.

Anyhow, this:

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your mother giving birth analogy is a perfect
> example of being in Plato’s Cave because Life is
> an Illusion. The mother who is in PAIN during
> childbirth is Ignorant because she is NOT supposed
> to be in PAIN.

I will simply say here that often a women who pursues a natural pregnancy, childbirth, nursing and baby-time comes up against a lot of flak, surprisingly, from the natural community if she doesn't succeed. That is not something I think either of you would have any knowledge of because you haven't had the experience yourself, and that's ok, I don't expect you to know so I'm going to shed some light on it from my experiences and those of my fellow mamas. There's a LOT of judgement about those things and about parenting that comes from those without kids themselves and also from other parents who do things differently. Recently my homeschooling friends have been posting ad nauseum about the benefits and "betters than" of homeschooling and finally I just had had it and told them all I was starting to feel like garbage about sending mine to public school. The ensuing discussion was an eye opener for all of us. They post because of all the negativity they get from their family, friends and greater community, not to rub the noses of the public school gang into it. So there we all are second guessing our parenting choices and getting defensive about it on all sides.
Listen, there's nothing, NOTHING more awesome and enormous than being responsible for the entire every-little-tiny-thing of another being, it's so hugely overwhelmingly terrifiying you just can't imagine this until it's your reality. I had younger siblings, cousins, children I nannied, it just doesn't touch being a parent.
Guardians of little people often take their responsibility very seriously, it is tied directly into every single other aspect of their lives and consiousnesses. so glib statements about how pregnancy should be etc, those are not groovy. They are really heavy, really heavy indeed. Talking about things we haven't experiences ourselves is a tricky business. This one, well, I don't know how it can be compared to anything else. I'm going to say that assumptions made about giving birth don't thrill me to hear. Do it and then tell me how it went for you. Until then, and even after, I don't think it's fair to say how things "should" go. It sure isn't fair to say that the woman owns that pain, that she could have somehow averted it if she was "better" or more evolved or whatever. That is an enormous physical experience, the body-mind-spirit equation gives equal weight to each aspect of one's being, does it not? So one doesn't out-value another... There is just no way to entirely turn off the physical body with the mind when that body is engaged in something so engrossing. And, in fact, that's the exact opposite of what happens. Man, that pain or big physical sensation or whatever you want to call it is there for a reason. It's there to root you so firmly in your body, in this world, more than ever before, while you're acting like a gateway to the "before life" realm. So that one or both of you don't slip off into it.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2013 09:45PM by coco.

coco,

firstly, i was giving you my mother's experience
LOTS of pain, ( and incidentally tremendous risk due to the circumstances) but concomittantly extremely happy that i made it alive
and i think she knew what she was talking about when she shared her experience with me

secondly, i still don't understand why you are directing the statement that i shame women in relation to the pain they are experiencing

are you getting me confused with someone else, e.g. john rose?

if you can find a quote where i allude to that, please quote it

because i don't see it

i feel like you are speaking to an imaginary version of myself that does not exist

did the imaginary la veronique state that somewhere in an imaginary thread?

if so, that's interesting

it means i have a doppelganger

meanwhile, you are confusing me because i have no idea what you are talking about

if you are referring to john rose's thread, direct it to him

" i am not my brother's keeper"

I quoted John, I made the statement to YOU because you seemed to be stating that childbirth is like any other "painful" experience, with which I disagree. When I said that dismissing a woman's experience of pain during childbirth was not on I was talking about this from you.

"i didn't give birth
but there are other things that are just as painful ( if not more painful)
than physically giving birth
suffering is suffering and childbirth does not have the monopoly on that domain
and people are still happy do do things that activate stress (pain, suffering)
on the surface, a lot of ordeals are painful
but if it is in alignment with one's principles/values
then, there is also a concurrent happiness"

I don't disagree about the resultant happiness Ver, our thoughts are aligned there. But the rest of that does read as dismissive to me. If you don't agree, well like I said, you didn't give birth yourself so how would you know? Birth is NOT like other experiences. Read my last post again with more of an open mind perhaps.

<<<But birth is... indescribable. The body literally opens between two plains of existance, becomes a portal, a doorway, a vessel, something "other". It's not "pain" in the typical sense of the word but it is huge. I have never actually read a sufficiently eloquent expression of that experience.>>>



Coco, obviously when you gave birth that was your experience, however I have heard other women who were not a fan of pregnancy nor the birthing process. I can't remember which celebrity (I think it was Valerie Bertinelli) who said that one child was enough for her due to the experience she had. I realize that you may not put stock in tv stars' wisdom, but I am sure I could find a decent amount of women who were not ecstatic while delivering their child. Maybe it has something to do with the counter-intuitive ways in which bringing a baby into the world is handled by the medical profession.

I am just not a fan of the idea that having a child is magical 100% of the time. It depends upon the consciousness of the mother. There are mothers who lock their kids in cages and beat them to death. Giving birth doesn't automatically turn a woman into a yogini and not giving birth doesn't make one an ignorant schlub. Not saying you were implying that but it seems to be the meme promoted by some mothers. THEY have this superior wisdom that those without kids couldn't possibly touch.

By the way, ever read "Spiritual Midwifery?" Ina Gaskin is the wife of Steven Gaskin and they founded The Farm in TN, a very long-running commune that has its own publishing company. I picked up a copy at a book fair last month for $1. It's very interesting and amusing to read all the hippie language and pics.

Hey coco,

Did you read my Thread on Raw Foods & Greek Mythology - [www.rawfoodsupport.com] ?

As I pointed out in that Thread, the Fall of Mankind is when we started Eating Cooked Food and this is when we were "Kicked out of the Garden" and according to Genesis 3:16 - To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your PAIN in CHILDBIRTH, In PAIN you will bring forth children; ..."

Now I don’t believe everything I read in the Bible, but this seems more than just a coincidence because PAIN is relative to how many Toxins we have inside of us and I agree with you, there are some things we CANNOT fully understand without having the Experience and YOU Lack this Experience just as much as I because you might have been RAW when you gave birth, but you were NOT 100% CLEAN!!!

For those interested in the relationship between PAIN & Toxins, check out my Thread - Raw Food, Toxins & Pain… - [www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Peace and Love..........John

coco

u think and feel whatever you want
but know this: those are YOUR sentiments
not mine

no matter what you insist

"dismissive" of a woman's experience of childbirth?

how the heck do you think i GOT here in the first place?

its not by giving birth to myself

coco

i wasn't dismissing a woman's pain during childbirth
i was dismissing your projection of your own thoughts as being tantamount to my intentions

and no, i do not have any intentions of giving birth just to have the right to create a metaphor

not in this lifetime

no thank you

Not to derail this thread, but ('BUT' erases everything, sayeth Dr. Laura) to me, having a child is like a sci-fi movie. The thought of having a living entity inside of me horrifies me to no end. I can't even fathom it. Kudos to those who reproduce because I find it very courageous.

Wow, just wow. I just Googled what the percentage is of human reproduction and found this:

<<<According to research cited by the American Association of University
Professors, 87% of women and 81% of men reproduce>>>

[answers.google.com]

That number is staggering to me. The vast majority of adults do it. So I am in quite the minority!

No wonder I feel like child-free people don't get a lot of respect and pegged as irresponsible, childish, and selfish. Not you, Coco, but the talk of motherhood got me on this jag.

Sorry to take this briefly in another direction but I gotta stick up for the 13%!

I am new to this forum and to NH. I began changing my diet 3 years ago, trying several things, reading, studying, asking questions. I am an addiction counselor so I totally "got it" that I was addicted to sugar and wheat. I finally got off them, dropped 90 lbs in 3 years of lots of starts and stops, mostly out of not really knowing what I was doing.

I've been reading a lot of your posts on here. I got interested in NH through the book Fit for Life and have implemneted much of it. The thing catching my eye now is something you said on another thread about not to put anything else in until something comes out. A bell went off inside me! For years I have had varying levels of constipation and right now I am "stuck" with 30 lbs still to lose and have begun to feel aweful again. Tired, sore achy joints, menopause symptoms heightened. I feel toxic. My fingers and toes even tingle again like when I was on sugar, but only after eating fruit.

I just got a folder from a Napropathic Dr. on doing cleansing. I just sort of intuitively know I need it. The folder was on coffee enemas. I'm going to try it this weekend.

Thank you for your posts. I imaging a lot more than me are benefiting from them even when we don't always reply.