hi all

i just posed a question to powerlifter and he gave me an excellent answer

you can see it in the molasses thread

i was still however, a little confused ( not so much by powerlifter's answer, which made sense) but the whole idea of how increasing iron can increase ferritin levels

that much i did not understand

it was my ( limited) understanding that ferritin was the protein storage bin for iron

thus someone could have perfect iron levels but low ferritin

powerlifter elucidated that low vitamin C, thyroid problems, heaven metal toxicity and intestinal disorders could cause low ferritin levels

thus addressing those issues was key

that much made sense to me

what i didn't understand however is how increasing iron ( in any form) including synthetically ( fumarate/sulfate), supplementing "naturally" via iron tablets etc.

could possibly increase ferritin levels since they were simply the STORAGE bin for iron

i have read how people increased ferritin levels by increasing iron but i don't understand that at all... in my understanding, that is like saying that a team lacked baseball mitts and they decided to increase the number of baseball mitts they had by donating more baseballs

i really would like to understand this

i think its an important subject and the subtleties that it poses is remarkable



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2013 08:30PM by la_veronique.

Here is powerlifter's post. It is very good.

Hey la_veronique,

<<From what ive researched low ferritin levels can be the result of a number of conditions such as thyroid disorders, celiac/intestinal diseases and even vitamin C deficiency. Serum iron levels aren't a great indicator of true iron levels in the body because they only show what is unbound and currently circulating in the blood.

Low ferritin levels can be indicative of iron deficiency anemia.

As you say vegans have been shown to have lower levels of serum ferritin this is because plant iron non-heme is poorly absorbed by the body. Consuming vitamin C rich foods alongside iron rich plant foods can help to increase absorption. Quite a few studies have shown even around half of vegans have low ferritin levels.

Serum ferritin tests should be used alongside serum iron to give a better indicator of true iron levels in the body. So many physicians rely on serum iron alone and can miss excess iron disorders such as hemochromatosis. Although ferritin levels can be sensitive and show increased levels when the individual is suffering from inflammation or infection.

To increase ferritin levels supplementation may be needed if iron deficiency anemia is diagnosed. Otherwise correcting the secondary issues whether thyroid, low vitamin C intake or lack of iron rich foods in the diet, which are causing low ferritin levels is recommended.

You bring up a great point about iron biounavaibility where the body can't utilize the iron it is getting well, this again can be the result of whole body issues and usually involve other minerals such as zinc deficiency, toxic metal imbalances and malabsorption issues as described above, which disrupts enzyme function and iron transport proteins. Many physicians routinely prescribe iron but if the body isn't using what its been given then excess iron will result. >>

so, once again, to make it clearer, i understand how addressing key issues of low ferritin like :

1. vitamin c deficiency
2. metal toxicity
3. intestinal disorders etc. needs to be addressed

but again, how does increasing iron levels increase ferritin levels

another thought arose

when a person says ferritin levels, i guess they mean the number of ferritin ( baseball mitts) that are BOUND to iron ( baseballs)?

thus if u lack ferritin ( bound iron levels) you need to add more iron ( baseball )

but this makes no sense for those who have PERFECT iron levels and still have very low ferritin levels

i guess i just need a lot more clarity on this issue

my favorite sources for iron are spinach, broccoli, sunflower , kale, and bok choy


would this be good enough?

i understand that plants have the non heme type of iron ( thus not as easily absorbed as the heme type ( found in non vegan products)

but i intend to get all my iron from plant sources only ( including nuts seeds sprouted legumes etc. ) though i haven't sprouted any beans yet like lentils etc. ( is that a good idea?)

what does everyone else do for their iron /ferritin

thanks in advance

and thanks again for your response powerlifter

hi powerlifter

thanks for your response

greatly appreciated

i looked up ferritin a bit more and it says that the unbound ferritin is called apoferritin

so i guess you are talking about the BOUND ferritin

so is it correct for me to assume that when they take ferritin levels ( lab) they are simply looking at the ferritin that is bound?

that would make sense then that if you increase the iron levels you increase the BOUND ferritin levels

thus if you want more baseballs in mitts ( bound ferritin) you simply donate more baseballs

is my understanding correct?

hence if someone is having low ferritin levels and PERFECT iron levels it means there is something that is messing with the BINDING of the iron to the ferritin

so , either the ferritin can't catch ( bad mitt) or something is preventing the baseball ( iron ) from being thrown well to the ferritin ( mitt)

hence all the issues you elucidated on like the vitamin c deficiency, thyroid issues , intestinal function issues etc.

my confusion stemmed from thinking that ferritin levels pointed to BOTH

bound
and unbound ferritin

but if ferritin levels are SOLELY measuring BOUND protein ( ferritin with iron)

then all would make sense

is my understanding on base? or do i need to adjust my position further?

thanks again!

powerlifter

<<It really depends on the individual i find, there are many which absorb non-heme plant iron fairly well and seem to suffer no issues. There are many individuals who don't absorb non-heme iron well however and have low iron levels as a result. Which is why we see many vegans having low ferritin levels according to studies.

There is also the issue for many woman who can lose significant amounts of iron during menstruation and as such they might require richer sources of iron which i won't name or often supplementation.

Consuming vitamin C rich foods alongside iron rich plant foods like i was saying in the other thread can help increase absorption of non-heme iron.

Have you had any bloodwork done if you suspect low iron ?. If you are vegan it would be wise to mention to your doctor to have a look at vitamin b12 levels also. And vitamin D if he is willing.>>

this is very helpful
thank you!

the funny thing is i don't eat that much spinach but i eat a LOT of kale and spinach has far more iron than kale so i suspected that i have low iron levels since it is non heme but yeah i've also heard that vegans don't necessarily have problems absorbing it just cuz its non heme so that is good to know

my energy levels is consistently very good so maybe i'm just imagining i have low iron levels simply cuz i get iron from plants only and far more kale than spinach ( like a ratio of 10 to 1 LOL ima gonna up the spinach level

the vitmin D issue is confusing to me so i'll probably start a thread on it too
but good idea to get that checked along with b- 12 ( i take a sublingual supplement) but i also do sea veggies ( but not sure if those are all analog but i love them anyways so i eat them)

thanks again !

Hi La Veronique,

Good stuff from powerlifter! I thought I'd add the following. Turns out it's pretty long though (sorry).

From La Veronique:

"i have read how people increased ferritin levels by increasing iron but i don't understand that at all... in my understanding, that is like saying that a team lacked baseball mitts and they decided to increase the number of baseball mitts they had by donating more baseballs"

That's a pretty good analogy. The part that's missing is that when something in the body needs the iron, the ferritin mitt has to let the iron baseball go, AND the only way to make that happen is to destroy the ferritin mitt. So the ferritin mitt is constantly being destroyed and remade - or "degraded and resynthesized" so that new iron can continually be caught and stored until it's needed.

We make new ferritin in response to messages sent to the DNA within our cells. When the cell content of iron is high, we need ferritin to store the iron - so ferritin is transcripted from DNA to mRNA, which is then translated into ferritin protein. When the cell content of iron is low, we don't need more ferritin to store the iron - so "iron response elements" are repressed in ferritin mRNA, and the mRNA can't translate into ferritin protein.

Our bodies also regulate the whole process to make sure we don't absorb too much iron. When ferritin (stores of iron) are high, the liver releases hepcidin protein. The hepcidin travels to enterocytes (intestinal cells) and degrades the ferroportin that would otherwise transport the iron out of the enterocyte to the transferrin protein that transports it. Without the ferroportin, the iron can't get into our blood and therefore also can't be taken up by body tissues.

Consequently, iron will build up in the enterocytes - but no problem, because enterocytes only live 3-5 days. When their time is up, they're excreted, along with the iron and everything else they've collected.

If for some reason though, the hepcidin function is not working correctly or sufficiently enough to compensate for high iron uptake, the iron will continue to be transported from the enterocyte into the blood, and the result can be "hemochromatosis" (iron toxicity).

__________________________________________________________________

La Veronique wrote:

"but this makes no sense for those who have PERFECT iron levels and still have very low ferritin levels"

A serum iron test detects the amount of iron that is circulating in the blood attached to transferrin - which is iron's normal transportation mode. A ferritin test detects the amount of iron that is circulating as ferritin, which is iron's normal storage mode.

My GUESS is that if a person has lots of iron in transport but not a lot in storage, there's either an abnormal disconnect between the two, or the person has accessed some iron recently, but not enough yet to make sufficient ferritin.

I think it's a great question, and my information is incomplete. I'm looking though.

La Veronique also wrote:

"hence if someone is having low ferritin levels and PERFECT iron levels it means there is something that is messing with the BINDING of the iron to the ferritin "

Could be, IMO. Wish I knew more.

Also, the opposite is true: a person can have a PERFECT ferritin level and still have very low iron levels. Serum ferritin level is usually a good indicator of overall iron body stores, because of the normal equilibrium between serum ferritin and tissue ferritin.

BUT ferritin is a "positive acute phase protein", meaning that it will go up during and following inflammation. So if a person is ill, their serum ferritin may be high or normal, while the person's overall iron status is actually low.

___________________________________________________________________

La Veronique wrote:

"i looked up ferritin a bit more and it says that the unbound ferritin is called apoferritin

so i guess you are talking about the BOUND ferritin

so is it correct for me to assume that when they take ferritin levels ( lab) they are simply looking at the ferritin that is bound?"

Unbound iron is not acceptable to a healthy body, because it has redox activity that sets off production of free radicals. Binding also keeps the iron from being used by harmful bacteria for their own growth.

Binding takes place via oxidation. Apoferritin is a protein shell for short term iron storage. Apoferritin surrounds the iron and then oxidizes/binds it into the ferric state. Ferritin is formed from apoferritin with many bound iron atoms.

FYI, transferrin also binds iron - both dietary iron and the iron lost from hemoglobin degradation. Red blood cells have a lifespan of about 120 days. When they die, the iron is picked up by transferrin and recycled.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> the funny thing is i don't eat that much spinach
> but i eat a LOT of kale and spinach has far more
> iron than kale so i suspected that i have low iron
> levels since it is non heme but yeah i've also
> heard that vegans don't necessarily have problems
> absorbing it just cuz its non heme so that is good
> to know

Non heme iron is only absorbed on average between 3 - 4%. Lots of things block iron absorption such as oxalic acid, phytic acid, tannins etc. By removing certain anti-nutrients we can bring that 3% absoprtion up to over 20% total (over 600% increase), sometimes even more. If your food has lots of tannin (common) the non heme in your food is going to be bound up (around 97% on average), and the only way to solve this problem without removing phytic acid and tannins is to have at least 50 mg of vitamin C with the meal, but even then, the non heme iron will still be slightly bound up by the tannins and phytic acids. The problem is...many vegans are buying their produce from shops and vitamin C loss from post harvest handling and general aging of the post harvest fruit might not have the vitamin C levels to over-ride tannins and phytic acids, especially if the food has been mass handled and display and storage areas are not adequate.

It is also said that the plant iron we consume is actually a non organic mineral because certain enzyme reactions don't occur to convert the mineral to organic form. Same problem with zinc. But if we ferment we can create the enzyme reaction to make the conversion from inorganic iron to organic.

www.thesproutarian.com

suncloud wrote :


<<That's a pretty good analogy. The part that's missing is that when something in the body needs the iron, the ferritin mitt has to let the iron baseball go, AND the only way to make that happen is to destroy the ferritin mitt. So the ferritin mitt is constantly being destroyed and remade - or "degraded and resynthesized" so that new iron can continually be caught and stored until it's needed.>>



whoahHH!!.. that's pretty cool so no USED ferritin just circulates around but they get made spankin brand new each and every time...that's like getting a new house for every iron.. pretty cool how the body is all about going FIRST CLASS ! Also reminds me of how when a bee stings someone ( thus injects that person with the formic acid thing, the bee then dies)



<<We make new ferritin in response to messages sent to the DNA within our cells. When the cell content of iron is high, we need ferritin to store the iron - so ferritin is transcripted from DNA to mRNA, which is then translated into ferritin protein. When the cell content of iron is low, we don't need more ferritin to store the iron - so "iron response elements" are repressed in ferritin mRNA, and the mRNA can't translate into ferritin protein.>>

smart little cookie that DNA... what a master sensor!


<<Our bodies also regulate the whole process to make sure we don't absorb too much iron. When ferritin (stores of iron) are high, the liver releases hepcidin protein. The hepcidin travels to enterocytes (intestinal cells) and degrades the ferroportin that would otherwise transport the iron out of the enterocyte to the transferrin protein that transports it. Without the ferroportin, the iron can't get into our blood and therefore also can't be taken up by body tissues.>>

ima gonna reward my nice little liver for doing all that work... maybe give it some dandelion juice tomorrow !

<<Consequently, iron will build up in the enterocytes - but no problem, because enterocytes only live 3-5 days. When their time is up, they're excreted, along with the iron and everything else they've collected.>>

soo... are the intestinal cells the FIRST body of cells that get the iron? just curious... also does this mean that the intestinal cells is the one that gets the SURPLUS irons ONLY which is then destroyed in 3-5 days? if its not surplus only, i want my body to hold onto the iron so i don't have to eat so much spinach LOL

<<If for some reason though, the hepcidin function is not working correctly or sufficiently enough to compensate for high iron uptake, the iron will continue to be transported from the enterocyte into the blood, and the result can be "hemochromatosis" (iron toxicity).>>

wheww!! i'm sure lucky that i don't have this. i feel bad for those that do though.
its a tough life they've got. really... they do.

<<Also, the opposite is true: a person can have a PERFECT ferritin level and still have very low iron levels. Serum ferritin level is usually a good indicator of overall iron body stores, because of the normal equilibrium between serum ferritin and tissue ferritin.

BUT ferritin is a "positive acute phase protein", meaning that it will go up during and following inflammation. So if a person is ill, their serum ferritin may be high or normal, while the person's overall iron status is actually low.>>

WOW!! so, like powerlifter says, its a good idea to be tested for both serum and ferritin levels. thanks for that info suncloud! just wondering though... why WOULD the iron levels go up during inflammation ( i guess i could hazard a guess but my brain is kind of half operative right now LOL


<<Unbound iron is not acceptable to a healthy body, because it has redox activity that sets off production of free radicals. Binding also keeps the iron from being used by harmful bacteria for their own growth.

Binding takes place via oxidation. Apoferritin is a protein shell for short term iron storage. Apoferritin surrounds the iron and then oxidizes/binds it into the ferric state. Ferritin is formed from apoferritin with many bound iron atoms.

FYI, transferrin also binds iron - both dietary iron and the iron lost from hemoglobin degradation. Red blood cells have a lifespan of about 120 days. When they die, the iron is picked up by transferrin and recycled.>>

okay... i guess the key word for apoferritin then is "short term" that makes sense . i'm glad, i dislike those pesky free radicals

so... do they also test for trasferrin as well? if not, why not?

well suncloud thanks for your super pellucid information. i enjoyed learning about the mysterious iron and it was extremely helpful

THANK YA!!

hey sproutman

you wrote:

<<Non heme iron is only absorbed on average between 3 - 4%. Lots of things block iron absorption such as oxalic acid, phytic acid, tannins etc. By removing certain anti-nutrients we can bring that 3% absoprtion up to over 20% total (over 600% increase), sometimes even more. If your food has lots of tannin (common) the non heme in your food is going to be bound up (around 97% on average), and the only way to solve this problem without removing phytic acid and tannins is to have at least 50 mg of vitamin C with the meal, but even then, the non heme iron will still be slightly bound up by the tannins and phytic acids. The problem is...many vegans are buying their produce from shops and vitamin C loss from post harvest handling and general aging of the post harvest fruit might not have the vitamin C levels to over-ride tannins and phytic acids, especially if the food has been mass handled and display and storage areas are not adequate.>>

oh... okay.. so i'm a little confused

my understanding in what u wrote here is that vitamin C will help with iron absorption but do NOTHING to ameliorate the phytic acid, tannin and oxalate problem right? i can see how one good thing is possible without doing another good thing. in other words, just gets one bird (vitamin absorption) with one stone ( increase vitamin C)

u mentioned in other posts that pro biotics could play a key role in helping with the oxalate problem...

what could be done to help with the tannin and phytic acid issue?

<< It is also said that the plant iron we consume is actually a non organic mineral because certain enzyme reactions don't occur to convert the mineral to organic form. Same problem with zinc. But if we ferment we can create the enzyme reaction to make the conversion from inorganic iron to organic.>>

hey sproutman

i heard of inorganic and organic iron but i feel lost here

it is my understanding that organic, in chemistry definition, simply refers to compounds that have carbon in them ( loosely speaking)

so what do you mean by "organic" here?

isn't iron just Fe in the periodic element?

confused but not hopeless





It is also said that the plant iron we consume is actually a non organic mineral because certain enzyme reactions don't occur to convert the mineral to organic form. Same problem with zinc. But if we ferment we can create the enzyme reaction to make the conversion from inorganic iron to organic.

Yeah ferritin is considered one of the best and most sensitive tests for diagnosing iron deficiency anemia and other iron disorders.

However as explained in the other thread and what suncloud brought up again is a great point. Serum ferritin levels can raise in the presence of inflammation and infection in the body. As such its wise to not assume that elevated serum ferritin always equals iron overload.

The elevated ferritin levels in presence of inflammation or infection is a protective mechanism by the body to keep free iron away from infection or inflammation and puts it into storage, elevating ferritin levels.

Simply put apoferritin is just a type of protein which binds to iron and forms ferritin.

Like i was saying above if you suspect these issues, then seeing a professional is essential and having some blood work done can't hurt, if anything for peace of mind. Always best to explain to your doctor your diet if you are a vegan because they don't typically test vitamin B12 or D at least here in the UK as standard.

Natu Health Food Store



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2013 12:00PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter says:

<<The elevated ferritin levels in presence of inflammation or infection is a protective mechanism by the body to keep free iron away from infection or inflammation and puts it into storage, elevating ferritin levels. >>

thanks for sating my curiosity !
wow.. inflammatory agents sure are huuuuuungry for iron!
they wanna be like popeye and get stronger so the DNA says " better make more "


<<Simply put apoferritin is just a type of protein which binds to iron and forms ferritin.>>

thanks for this clarification. i can see it better now.

thanks powerlifter!

Its funny because whilst so many minerals/metals are essential for health in small amounts, in excess they can have devastating consequences to your health.

Not even taking into account the likes of mercury, lead, aluminium etc. Healthful minerals such as iron, zinc, copper etc can all cause havoc if they are aloud to build up for any reason in the body.

Rebalancing mineral levels is essential for the correction of many common health problems. Many individuals suffer from common bio-chemical mineral imbalances such as low zinc/copper excess, excess iron is actually a very common disorder also known as hemochromatosis.

Each mineral shares a unique relationship with other minerals such as zinc and copper or sodium and potassium for example. As such mineral supplements should only be used under the guideance of a qualified practictioner because high doses can displace and antagonize other minerals. Not only that but certain vitamins can lower or increase the absorption of many minerals like we explained with vitamin C increasing iron absorption.

High dose vitamin C will also lower copper and has the ability to cause copper deficiency with excessive supplemented dosages. Proper mineral balance is like i say a very interesting topic and we will no doubt continue to see more research linking toxic heavy metals and mineral imbalances such as copper toxicity to behavioural and mental health disorders, weak immune system and other diseases that result.

Toxic metals will also replace where healthful minerals such as zinc, calcium, selenium etc are meant to go if deficient. So something to think about if your diet provides low levels of these vital nutrients.

Enviromental toxicity is one of the most common causes of cancer afterall.

Natu Health Food Store



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2013 12:29PM by powerlifter.

wow

what an eye opener

i knew someone who had the condition where there was iron overload
he had to have blood drawn from him on a regular basis
as a result ( kinda like dialysis)
he was just grateful he had it diagnosed when he did
cuz he did not know why he was feeling so weak/tired

but it was really a LOTTTTT for him to deal with
his uncle had it too

so maybe it was also genetic?

<<Each mineral shares a unique relationship with other minerals such as zinc and copper or sodium and potassium for example. As such mineral supplements should only be used under the guideance of a qualified practictioner because high doses can displace and antagonize other minerals. Not only that but certain vitamins can lower or increase the absorption of many minerals like we explained with vitamin C increasing iron absorption.

High dose vitamin C will also lower copper and has the ability to cause copper deficiency with excessive supplemented dosages. Proper mineral balance is like i say a very interesting topic and we will no doubt continue to see more research linking toxic heavy metals and mineral imbalances such as copper toxicity to behavioural and mental health disorders, weak immune system and other diseases that result.

Toxic metals will also replace where healthful minerals such as zinc, calcium, selenium etc are meant to go if deficient. So something to think about if your diet provides low levels of these vital nutrients.>>

this is very interesting
and a lot to think about

i like getting vitamin C from food
i always felt a bit wary about supplements for that reason ( cuz u don't know what they will do exactly since they are not synergistic but isolated compounds)

but i take b -12 and am looking into (maybe) taking vitamin D
any opinions on Vitamin d supplements ?

either that or eat some of those foods that sproutman mentioned ( in his really detailed post) and jprindl
though not sure if i will get enough

not clear if sunlight takes care of BOTH types of vitamin d

plus the harmful rays

its a fine line to walk

but i walk it anyways ( just like everyone else

powerlifter

what should be done to balance copper/zinc ratios

or sodium/potassium ratio

what should the ratio be

any food suggestions?

also, are these ratios affected primarily due to metal toxicity?

i was vaccinated as a baby and i'm thinking maybe i still have those toxic metals inside of me

though i've done a lot of cilantro juice but still... who knows whats in the air

powerlifter

i see u posted on the vitamn d thread

thanks!

i'm reading it

powerlifter

yeah that iron thing... man... i got 3 bunches of spinach yesterday
ha ha.. ( and of course, kale)

i do spirulina too

zinc/copper ratio

looking forward to learning more



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2013 09:45PM by la_veronique.

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> my understanding in what u wrote here is that
> vitamin C will help with iron absorption but do
> NOTHING to ameliorate the phytic acid, tannin and
> oxalate problem right? i can see how one good
> thing is possible without doing another good
> thing. in other words, just gets one bird (vitamin
> absorption) with one stone ( increase vitamin C)
Exactly, it only kills one bird with one stone. The vitamin C will not solve the phytic acid, tannin and oxalate problems. All vitamin C does is reduce anti nutrient effects on iron, but we still have the other nutrient binding problems that need to be delt with.


>
> u mentioned in other posts that pro biotics could
> play a key role in helping with the oxalate
> problem...
>
> what could be done to help with the tannin and
> phytic acid issue?
Probiotics do break down tannins.
Digestive enzymes with phytase will break down phytic acid. You would need about 50 mg of phytase to break down the nasty phytic acids imo from observing lots of studies done.



>
> << It is also said that the plant iron we consume
> is actually a non organic mineral because certain
> enzyme reactions don't occur to convert the
> mineral to organic form. Same problem with zinc.
> But if we ferment we can create the enzyme
> reaction to make the conversion from inorganic
> iron to organic.>>
>
> hey sproutman
>
> i heard of inorganic and organic iron but i feel
> lost here
>
> it is my understanding that organic, in chemistry
> definition, simply refers to compounds that have
> carbon in them ( loosely speaking)
>
> so what do you mean by "organic" here?
>
> isn't iron just Fe in the periodic element?

>
>
>

Ah yes, the old reliable chemistry eh. I'll have to get back to this, but there is much more to the story than what these chemists like to tell us with their narrow views. l'm currently summerising 1,000's of pages of science research, so when l come across the explanations l will let you know hopefully.

www.thesproutarian.com

instead of having a kale salad i had a spinach salad with tomatoes

for dressing , i just grinded some sunflower seeds and added water and lemon juice

i feel darn good!

sproutman says

<<Feel like a young boy with youthful zest and energy for life.>>

by gosh then you ARE!!