Hi everyone,
By which vegetable foods I can get vitamin B12 and D, apart from the sun for vitamin D?
Thanks so much.

Well, if you do not get enough vitamin d children get rickets right? And b 12? what happens to you then?

I see in my organic shop they sell a spray you put under your tongue and for vitamin d, there are drops you can take as well.

I feel like some places of the world where its half dark or always raining,
( Seattle) lots of people commit suicide, they get depressed, or you think its Vitamin d deficiency?

I knew a kid who was a teacher at Tree of Life rejuvenation, the guy who lives in the teepee. He told me he had a b12 deficiency before he came there and he was taking chlorella and spirulina for it. I think people back then were taking seaweeds..Then later Gabriel found out the b12 in seaweeds is analog, meaning, it wont do anything to you. Its tough. I dont know. Noone is god and can say for sure.

Eat @#$%&?





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 08:35PM by coconutcream.

I would supplement b12. You could get psychological problems like depressions, etc. Everything else is "debatable". Most vegan haters point out the deficiencies while hiding the studies of the toxins (all types of cancers) from their diets. If you take a couple supplements you would have eliminated the "deficiencies". But a non vegan can never eliminate the toxins

Check out this site about the dangers of not being vegan:

[nutritionfacts.org]

nothing personal, but maybe you should rename your site rawfoodsucks.com it even nportratits a a frozen pic of Dr Graham

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nothing personal, but maybe you should rename your
> site rawfoodsucks.com it even nportratits a a
> frozen pic of Dr Graham

lol why ? out of the 50 posts ive done on that blog only a meager two are on raw food or vegan.

raw food is great, all raw food and dogmatic diets however isnt



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 08:49PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> raw food is great, all raw food and dogmatic diets
> however isnt

but who defines dogmatic? wouldn't your statement be dogmatic? isn't a deviation of your non vegan diet dogmatic?

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to supplement then supplement away no
> ones argueing or stopping you, some people wish to
> get these nutrients naturally from diet. Others
> will have found that the there body didn't
> tolerate the b12 supplements so they have no
> choice but to utilize a dietary source.
>

well, why don't you then speak about the cancers that you would get from the bacteria toxins of meat (b12)? Why don't you say all the bad stuff that carries your advice? All I am doing is to exercise the same freedom to speak as you do.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:17AM by Prana.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just because excessive red meat intake is linked
> to the development of some cancers such as those
> in the stomach, doesn't mean that red meat is
> inherently bad within a balanced diet.

check this about cancer growth from small amounts of meat:

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]


> Your free to speak about the negative effects of
> these foods all you want, unlike you im not
> opposed to honest discussion and im quite happy to
> hear the good and bad sides of these foods. From
> there i can make my own balanced opinion which
> works for me.
>


chek this out about bacteria toxins (cannot be washed out or cooked out) from animal parts

[nutritionfacts.org]

"A landmark study in the New England Journal of Medicine shows that choline in eggs, poultry, dairy and fish produces the same toxic TMAO as carnitine in red meat, which may help explain plant-based protection from heart disease."

PL, why aren't you receptive of landmark studies?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:17AM by Prana.

That last line was written by Dr Greger by the way, not from the original study author incase anyone is wondering.

Yes animal foods produce TMAO we've been through this, this once again doesn't mean there inherently bad for you. But it does show us that excessive levels of animal foods is probably not a good idea, we already know this though.

How would you have lived your new age 21st vegan diet before supplements came along ?. If B12 supplements are banned for generic sale other than to treat deficiency today from tomorrow how do you plan to live healthy, seeing as your vegan diet isn't nutritionally complete without them ?

[chriskresser.com]

Finally, this paper did not prove that eating choline-rich foods (or any other foods) increases TMAO levels over time. In fact, the researchers themselves seem to suggest this is unlikely in the discussion section of the paper. They said: “the high correlation between urine and plasma levels of TMAO argues for effective urinary clearance of TMAO.” In other words, even if eating food does increase total TMAO levels, most people are able to quickly and efficiently clear that TMAO from their blood by excreting it in the urine.

The original study author condluded a high fiber, VEGETARIAN diet, not VEGAN.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 09:36PM by powerlifter.

Pl. you are caought up in the all black-white mentality. Paleolitic people had a vegetable base diet. They were not the cleanest of all (dirt brings bacteria and b12 on cobalt rich soils) but they managed. NOW the new age paleo diet is well proven to be web fad. People should avoid it at all cost. Look at their faces and you'll see sickness and death writen all over. NOW if eating meat is soo good, why do they look like crap? Why do they take ALL those supplements if their diet is theoretically perfect?

it is about culture. Anything that goes away from culture is dogmatic. life expectancy has many factors other than diet alone.

Bacteria that create B12 are ubiquitous in our environment, meaning that they are everywhere. Where do you think the animals got their B12 from?

B12 deficiency is rampant in our society, even among meat eaters. A quote from the blurb about the book Could It Be B12?: An Epidemic of Misdiagnoses, "... physicians frequently misdiagnose B12 deficiency as Alzheimer’s disease, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, mental retardation, Parkinson’s disease, depression, or other mental illnesses."

The issue that that most of the population cannot absorb b12 from diet because of impaired digestion and absorption. This has caused the food industry to heavily fortify foods with B12, products like breakfast cereals, soy products, yeast products, non-dairy milk products.

Even with food fortification, plus the high availability of B12 in animal products, people are still having B12 deficiency, mostly because of their poor absorption. So coming to a raw diet, where one is not eating animal products or those fortified products, a person with b12 absorption problems is going to have a tough time with the natural levels of b12 that might be in a human body, which could sustain a perfectly healthy human with excellent b12 absorption capability. If you are such an individual, you most certainly should supplement until you heal your digestion.

According to Dr. Vivian Vetrano, the most effective way to heal b12 absorption is to water fast under supervision. Once the digestion is healed, a person ought to be able to absorb the low levels of b12 from what grows in the human body and trace amounts that will be on foods grown in b12 rich soil.

powerlifter, bugs don't create b12. All b12, whether it is found in an animal products, or a supplement, or in the human body, comes from bacteria. B12 is a by products of fermentation of a multitude of different bacteria, including PNSBs (found in Effective microorganisms) and a bunch of different lactobacteria and I believe even bacillus subtilis. When measured, 1 tbsp of EMX-Gold, which is a fermentation byproduct of Effective microorganism, contains over 150% the RDA of B12.

Various insects have been shown to contain vitamin b12, which is produced in there digestive tract as a byproduct of fermentation. Wild animals will eat anything though, so they commonly eat other small animals. They eat each others faeces also, which will likely contain some b12.

Wakayama et al.104 (1984) measured the amounts of B12 in insects using an IF radioassay. They determined that bacteria in the insects' digestive tracts were responsible for the production of the B12. Some insects, such as the housefly, had no detectable B12.

However, other insects had some B12, such as one cockroach species (.004 mcg/mcg). 5 termite species produced large amounts of B12 (.455-3.21 mcg/mcg). This could help explain how primitive humans could have obtained B12 without needing to rely on large amounts of meat.

from Dr Mercola



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2013 10:38PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vitamin b12 deficiency can cause a whole host of
> bad health problems including irrepairable nervous
> system damage.

This type of nerve damage IS repairable.
>
> B12 is not to be taken lightly, its not a nutrient
> that we can live with low or deficient levels like
> some other vitamins/minerals in the short term.
>
> Vitamin D plays a major role in mood and is a
> cause of seasonal depression also known as
> Seasonal affective disorder (SAD).
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:17AM by Prana.

In regards to vitamin D, l would not recommend any plant foods as reliable sources because plant foods contain D2 which has a very low conversion rate into D3 (something like 10 - 15% from memory). Also, plants with D2 only stay in the body for a very short time.

Best to either get out in the sun and shower every second day or supplement. Eventhough controversy exists over Holick's landmark 1980 vitamin D study regarding the oils for making D3 taking days to absorb, it was still a flawed study. However you still might want to exercise caution and shower every second day. Evenstill, their are now suggestions that people living higher than 40 degree latitude are getting much less D3 from the sun, and that the sun needs to be at least 45 degrees in the sky to get D3 from the UVB rays because if it is lower in the sky those UVB rays are said to be refracted off the atmosphere. So yes, living above 40 degree latitude could well mean supplementing because sun exposure might not be enough.

I would stay out in the sun for only 20 minutes with full body exposure during early morning or evening (assuming the sun is at least 45 degrees in the sky). Note: use no sunscrean or don't think sitting behind windows will help absorb vitamin D3 because it is UVB rays which produce the D3, however sunscrean and windows block UVB and let in the very dangerous UVA and UVC. Many people don't know that their sunscrean is not actually protecting them like they think because they are still letting in harmful UVA and UVC rays, and science clearly states that this false sense of security has lead to more skin cancer because people who use suntan lotion are staying out in the sun for longer and getting these harmful rays while having much of the good UVB rays blocked (haven't got time to find the science reference at the moment).

Here is an excellent vitamin D article by the Mayo Clinic. It is very long.

Vitamin D for Health: A Global Perspective

[www.mayoclinicproceedings.org]

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 12:14AM by The Sproutarian Man.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love how you call having a differing opinion
> "hating".
>
> Theres always the fact that theres never been a
> recordable healthy strict vegan culture to date. A
> vegetarian diet contains both vitamin B12 and D
> and is thus nutritionally complete.
>


How do you explain Brian Clement and other vegans having excellent B-12 levels.

What you fail to see is that if you took a HEALTHY young person and put them on a vegan diet they would be fine especially give some time to adapt. Also someone who has good genes and has not been exposed to too many toxins even prenatal. Someone with strong digestive system etc. Once you are fermenting properly and getting the nutrients needed to ferment B-12 you should be good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:17AM by Prana.

Some more B12 reading that is interesting. The Koreans were getting B12 from plant foods, bit it still wasn't enough because it made up only 30% of their diets on average. As l mentioned earlier, don't rely on Nori as a main source until you are sure it is working for you.

Discovery of Novel Sources of Vitamin B12 in Traditional Korean Foods from Nutritional Surveys of Centenarians

Chung Shil Kwak, Mee Sook Lee, Se In Oh, and Sang Chul Park
[www.hindawi.com]

Dried green and purple lavers (Nori) contain substantial amounts of biologically active vitamin B(12) but less of dietary iodine relative to other edible seaweeds

Watanabe F, Takenaka S, Katsura H, Masumder SA, Abe K, Tamura Y, Nakano Y
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



"The dried lavers contained lesser amounts of dietary iodine ( approximately 4-6 mg/100 g of dry weight) relative to other seaweeds, suggesting that excessive intake of the dried lavers is unlikely to result in harmful intake of dietary iodine. These results indicate that the dried lavers (nori) are the most excellent source of vitamin B(12) among edible seaweeds, especially for strict vegetarians".

www.thesproutarian.com

Interesting that Doenjang, a fermented soybean product made with bacillus subtilis, the same bacteria used to make natto, can have more than 4 mcg b-12 in a 100 gram serving.

WE still need to be careful of fermented soy products for various reasons and should use them sparingly.

First we have the Aldehyde poisoning issue which blocks vitamin B1,

ALDHYDE POISONING

by Lawrence Wilson, MD
[www.drlwilson.com]

Second, we have studies which SIGNIFICANTLY correlate colorectal cancer with high soy consumption. Other previous studies which conflicted this advice were flawed these studies focused on certain types of soy foods and did not estimate total intake of soy products or isoflavone intake.

Then again, this above study does not measure the raw food community so the results would probably be much different again. Good to be aware of it however.

Ecological study of the association between soy product intake and mortality from cancer and heart disease in Japan

Chisato Nagata
[ije.oxfordjournals.org]

Fermented soy is also a great source of vitamin K2.

www.thesproutarian.com

Maybe also the base-line values(FDA)are too high for the vitamin b12, as if there was only the vitamin b12..

Brian Clement and his wife have always had decent B12 levels, about 30% of the population do because their bodies somehow are able to produce it in adequate amounts, but that is becoming less and less common these days. Evenstill, Dr Clement does supplement with a soil based bacterial B12 to remain on the safe side. In his opinion, everyone should supplement with B12, but maybe he isn't aware of the findings on Nori.

Viktoras Kulvinskas developed a vitamin B12 deficiency and he said he fixed it by enemas, wheatgrass implants and ferments. Took him a while, but now he no longer supplements. He said you first need to get the intestines very clean on the inside before you can build the body back to producing B12.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 12:27PM by The Sproutarian Man.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Superjuice Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How do you explain Brian Clement and other
> vegans
> > having excellent B-12 levels.
> >
> > What you fail to see is that if you took a
> HEALTHY
> > young person and put them on a vegan diet they
> > would be fine especially give some time to
> adapt.
> > Also someone who has good genes and has not
> been
> > exposed to too many toxins even prenatal.
> Someone
> > with strong digestive system etc. Once you are
> > fermenting properly and getting the nutrients
> > needed to ferment B-12 you should be good.
>
> Vitamin B12 supplements in most cases.

BRIAN CLEMENT IS NOT SUPPLEMENTING, THAT WAS THE POINT. WHY WOULD I SAY THAT IF THEY WERE SUPPLEMENTING?

> Seaweeds,algaes and such mostly contain B12 analogs which
> the jury is still out on how effective they are
> and there is some notion that they may actually
> complete with b12.
>
> You can have the best digestive system in the
> world, but it still won't give you adequate levels
> of Vitamin B12 to sustain health.

THIS IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE IF NOT DIGESTING PROPERLY FERMENTATION WILL NOT OCCUR AS EFFICIENTLY.


> Humans need a dietary source of B12, if you want to supplement
> then thats fine but we shouldn't kid ourselves
> that its a natural thing to have to do to get
> nutrients.

THERE IS NOTHING NATURAL ABOUT OUR LIVES, WE ARE BORN WITH HUNDREDS OF TOXINS!


> Whether you can repair the nerve damage caused by
> vitamin B12 deficiency is not the point.

IT IS MY POINT: YOU WERE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! LOL. Just a little jab there brother lol. Don't mind all the CAPS I just like it that way.

You are doing a good job of educating us though so thank you, and this is a very dangerous situation so it should be taken seriously. I know from personal experience.

Here are a few recorded cases of B12 deficiency in vegans:

[veganhealth.org]

The theory is that B12 is produced by bacteria in the colons of humans, but it is produced below where it can be reached by the intrinsic factor that is needed for absorption. B12 from the diet is exposed to intrinsic factor, whereas our own bacteria-produced B12 is not.

My personal B12 story: After 15 years raw vegan, with no source of B12 whatsoever (no yeast or supplements or fortified foods), my feet and hands began to tingle. I started supplementing, and it was gone in a month. I was lucky, but if you read the info from the above link, you will see that not everyone experiences B12 deficiency the same way. Some just go crazy.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2013 10:31AM by suncloud.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Superjuice if you want to get severe nerve
> damage from a b12 deficient vegan diet then feel
> free but im sure the majority of people want to
> avoid developing these serious health problems if
> they can be avoided.

I NEVER SAID NOT TO SUPPLEMENT!

> If Brian Clement doesn't supplement then why does
> he recommend everyone to take bacterial based B12
> supplements as mandatory?

THE SAME THING I KEEP TELLING YOU BUT YOU DISCOUNT! PEOPLE ARE TOXIC AND HAVE DEVOLVED INTO CARNIVOROUS JUNK-FOOD JUNKIES. PEOPLE ARE BORN TOXIC AND THEN GROW UP DRINKING CHLORINATED WATER, EATING PESTICIDES ETC. ALMOST ALL HUMANS ARE GENETICALLY DAMAGED ALONG WITH BEING TOXIC. THESE TOXINS WILL STAY IN THE BODY FOR A LONG TIME, UNTIL DEATH IN SOME OR MOST CASES.

EVEN ILEUM HAS ALMOST DISAPEARED OVER THE LAST THREE HUNDRED YEARS AS BRIAN CLEMENT HAS SHOWN. AND WE ALL KNOW THAT THE ILEUM IS WHERE B-12 IS STORED, CULTIVATES AND IS ABSORBED ALONG WITH OTHER AREAS OF THE INTESTINE.

AGAIN YOU KEEP SAYING IT CAN'T BE DONE BUT THERE ARE MANY OUT THERE DOING IT, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW THEM!

SO WHY KEEP TRYING TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO JUST KEEP DEVOLVING AND THEN THE HUMAN RACE WILL ALWAYS BE STUCK EATING ANIMAL PRODUCTS TO OBTAIN THESE NUTRIENTS? INSTEAD DO LIKE BC AND EDUCATE PEOPLE ON THE DOWNFALL OF THE HUMAN RACE NOT IGNORE IT.

you can get b12 through the skin in any part of the body. Otherwise there would be no b12 skin patches.

True Panchito. The B12 is absorbed through the skin and goes directly into the bloodstream.

Unfortunately, B12 inside the gastrointestinal tract requires intrinsic factor for absorption.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True Panchito. The B12 is absorbed through the
> skin and goes directly into the bloodstream.
>
> Unfortunately, B12 inside the gastrointestinal
> tract requires intrinsic factor for absorption.


I think I will go out and roll around in the dirt, maybe that's what we all need LOL.

Superjuice,

LOL! Could be!

Best to find some good cow patties.