I have two different questions on Fermented Soy products, please post me your answer

Do any one have research evidence on consuming Fermented Soy products and soy milk for short term say 5 years and it's adverse effect on endothelial cells of arteries/capillaries/vein to build up plaque for the case of American Vegan Society , preseident Jay (died at the age of 66)

It seems Natto provides sufficient K2 for vegans and Fermented Soy products after cooking provide enough armoatic amino acids (tyrosine and phenylanaline) & less sulfur-containing amino acids: methionine (364mg) and cysteine (385mg) and when mixed with good amount of limiting amino acids such as almonds ,brewer's yeast and lentinls would it make a perfect protein food for cooked vegans?

Ramanan if you go that route for your workplace you want to be sure you are getting non-GMO soy so buy black soy beans. They haven't been messed with yet.


Here is a very good place buy get cultures...

[www.culturesforhealth.com]


I know you will find a closer place to get them from but in case anyone in the US is interested this is where I used to get mine ...

[www.edenfoods.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2014 03:23PM by SueZ.

Thanks Suez for pinting me to good cultures source and black soy bean as well.

ramanan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Suez for pinting me to good cultures source
> and black soy bean as well.

Your welcome, ramanan. Before I went raw I made my own tofu and bought all this stuff as I was intending on making my own natto, and miso, etc. I doubt the cultures I bought are still active but the beans should be good for about 30 years, lol.

Thanks Suez, it's good to know that soy bean can last for 30 years, I would like to know that how you are able to get your vitamin k2?

Vow, Thanks THeSt0rm, it's a great idea to make rejuvelac from raw soybean sprouts , how do you make sure phytic acids and LAX enzyme inhibitors are removed from soy? Do you think the first 8 hrs of soak and rinse will remove them?

also one another question how do you consume raw mung bean sprouts and raw soy bean sprouts (they are the one with lengthy stem) ?

ramanan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Suez, it's good to know that soy bean can
> last for 30 years,

Mine will because they are packed for long term storage with desiccants and the O2 absorbers in mylar bags inside buckets in cool storage conditions.

I would like to know that how
> you are able to get your vitamin k2?


I'm expecting my terrain modified good flora bacteria to produce whatever cannot be converted by my body from k1. I have no blood clotting problems.

Way in the past I did have a deep vein thrombosis so I would know, from experience, if I was having a problem with blood clotting - you can feel it. And although I'm almost a lifelong vegetarian my B12 is always good without supplements so I'm not going to worry.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ramanan Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Thanks Suez, it's good to know that soy bean
> > can
> > > last for 30 years,
> >
> > Mine will because they are packed for long
> > term storage with desiccants and the O2
> absorbers
> > in mylar bags inside buckets in cool storage
> > conditions.
> >
> > I would like to know that how
> > > you are able to get your vitamin k2?
> >
> >
> > I'm expecting my terrain modified good
> flora
> > bacteria to produce whatever cannot be
> converted
> > by my body from k1. I have no blood clotting
> > problems.
> >
> > Way in the past I did have a deep vein
> > thrombosis so I would know, from experience, if
> I
> > was having a problem with blood clotting - you
> can
> > feel it. And although I'm almost a lifelong
> > vegetarian my B12 is always good without
> > supplements so I'm not going to worry.
>
>
> hm, no b12 supplements? that's interesting.
>
> The only way I think a person could live without
> them is if their gut flora is very well, and their
> intestines are clean enough. Besides that, I think
> a person should also be living as "close to
> nature" as possible, lol. Whatever that means. Ie
> , walking barefoot on soil, breathing fresh air
> (?), freshly harvested raw food.
>
> Besides that, I'm not even sure. The appendix
> supposedly used to serve as a storehouse for good
> bacteria. Now that function may likely be gone? Im
> not sure if we could possible get that function
> back. Some animals do get b12 from b12 producing
> bacteria in the colon. But I'm not sure if that
> would be the case with humans even if we had an
> appendix which still stores good bacteria. There's
> also the duodenum (not sure if this is the organ
> though?) which used to serve as a second chamber
> to ferment food like cows would before it passes
> through the colon.

I suspect it might be because of all the dandelions with their roots I pluck out of the yard and put whole, just lightly washed, in my juicer with this thing...

[www.amazon.com]

That and the seaweed which I buy very clean and don't wash off.

ramanan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have two different questions on Fermented Soy
> products, please post me your answer
>
> Do any one have research evidence on consuming
> Fermented Soy products and soy milk for short term
> say 5 years and it's adverse effect on endothelial
> cells of arteries/capillaries/vein to build up
> plaque for the case of American Vegan Society ,
> preseident Jay (died at the age of 66)
>
> It seems Natto provides sufficient K2 for vegans
> and Fermented Soy products after cooking provide
> enough armoatic amino acids (tyrosine and
> phenylanaline) & less sulfur-containing amino
> acids: methionine (364mg) and cysteine (385mg) and
> when mixed with good amount of limiting amino
> acids such as almonds ,brewer's yeast and lentinls
> would it make a perfect protein food for cooked
> vegans?

One thing l do have is a study somewhere showing that the high consumption of fermented soy products has lead to various cancers.

A 5 year study:


Soy product intake estimated as total amount as well as isoflavone and soy protein intake were significantly positively correlated with colorectal cancer mortality rates in both sexes




Ecological study of the association between soy product intake and mortality from cancer and heart disease in Japan

Chisato Nagata
[ije.oxfordjournals.org]


All this means is that fermented soy should never be over consumed.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:

> Chisato Nagata
> [ije.oxfordjournals.org]
> l

Inverse correlation.


"Conclusion The present study provides modest support for the preventive role of soy against stomach cancer and heart disease death."

ramanan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vow, Thanks THeSt0rm, it's a great idea to make
> rejuvelac from raw soybean sprouts , how do you
> make sure phytic acids and LAX enzyme inhibitors
> are removed from soy? Do you think the first 8 hrs
> of soak and rinse will remove them?


Soy is an excellent food for fermenting, but personally l would use it sparingly and concentrate on rye seed rejuvalic. And certainly limit any fermented soy bean consumption because it can still be hard to digest and has been linked to cancer (see above post).

Rye sprout rejuvalic is always preferred because it is the highest source of phytase and very low in tannins (actually some studies have shown rye grasses to have no tannins) which is been known to break down phytic acids very effectively without it's culture being inhibited by tannins. If certain foods are high in tannins, the phytase and anti-nutrient destroying potential is greatly curved and results of the ferment won't be as effective. Always good to know this. But be assured, soy is quite low in tannins and makes an o.k fermented food occasionally.





>
> also one another question how do you consume raw
> mung bean sprouts and raw soy bean sprouts (they
> are the one with lengthy stem) ?


Best to sprout them and take a probiotic and digestive enzyme. Of course they can be sprouted and then fermented, but ferments must be limited because of the potential for adelhyde poisoining which can limit B1 absorption.


If you have things like raw grains, l would definitely save the ferments for those to improve digestion and taste.


The real issue with trying to ferment sprouted mung beans is that `chitinase' can make the ferment much less effective because it acts as an anti bacterial factor, but some people have still reported some success doing this. Mung bean/lentil sprouting is never enough because the tannins can slowly re-appear again after about 4 days and make the carbs, limiting amino acids, zinc and various other nutrients get bound up to some extent/. There are other issues l don't have time to go into, but raw sprouted legumes and grains need further help breaking down anti nutrients.

Must have sprouted legumes with a probiotic and digestive enzyme, or do an occasional ferment of these foods.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
>
> > Chisato Nagata
> >
> [ije.oxfordjournals.org]
>
> > l
>
> Inverse correlation.
>
>
> "Conclusion The present study provides modest
> support for the preventive role of soy against
> stomach cancer and heart disease death."

Yes it does. Helps reduce incidence of stomach cancer but increases risk of colorectal cancer. On other words, best to limit the consumption. The digestability of fermented soy isn't so desirable either.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2014 02:55AM by The Sproutarian Man.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> >
> > > Chisato Nagata
> > >
> >
> [ije.oxfordjournals.org]
>
> >
> > > l
> >
> > Inverse correlation.
> >
> >
> > "Conclusion The present study provides
> modest
> > support for the preventive role of soy against
> > stomach cancer and heart disease death."
>
> Yes it does. Helps reduce incidence of stomach
> cancer but increases risk of colorectal cancer. On
> other words, best to limit the consumption. The
> digestability of fermented soy isn't so desirable
> either.

Or maybe take it if you have stomach cancer but don't take it if you colorectal cancer.

Sprout man, it's an intelligent insight that tannin and anti-nutrient level goes up after 4 days, is there any way to reduce or keep tannin and anti-nutrient level level same?
Would it be ok to consume 4 oz of natto/tempeh interchangeably in a week continuously for every day?

ramanan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Would it be ok to consume 4 oz of natto/tempeh
> interchangeably in a week continuously for every
> day?


Ramanam, as natto and tempeh are cooked foods I don't understand why you don't go with idlis instead of soy products.

I used to make a big batch of idli batter every week from sprouted whole urad and sprouted rice. That makes it easy to steam fresh idlis every day. Idlis only need about 20 minutes of steaming. These soy products require much longer cooking times. The soy beans have to be cooked before you can start the natto or tempeh fermentation, you know. Cooked for a very long time.

It is very easy to ferment idli batter with a few unwashed fenugreek legumes so you don't even have to buy expensive culture starters. If you don't have a stone grinder a good mixi will do for grinding the soaked batter ingredients. Also all of the ingredients are readily available to you locally and idlis will be much easier for your patients to digest than soy even in soy's long cooked and fermented states like natto and tempeh.


I hope you are not planning on trying to make natto and tempeh from uncooked sprouted beans and then fermenting those with cultures because that is not going to work.

Thanks Suez, you know so much about our Idli making process.... I am getting prepare for the Institute as well I may start my own at some point of time, so Iam keeping my ears open on all the good raw and cooked diets ...Idli is going to on of the staple item for cooked vegans in the Institute but rich amino acids of soy (after fermentation) really attracts....