I was reading this weekend about Stockholm Syndrome, you guys know that? I can explain it. Its like a thing where you make excuses for your captor even in the eyes of the obvious. Lets say in a cult or a kidnapping. No matter what, like lets say you believe in a guru and he tells you this football team is going to win and they lose, meaning its a fail and yet the followers will overlook this and still make excuses why he she was wrong.

Does this apply to raw veganism. Yes we make excuses for our gurus. That is really dangerous when you only put so much into one persons raw vegan philosophy. You live by them and then you go see this guru eating a burger and you make excuses for him. That he is right, of course. Still right, look at all the good he does etc.
Then I also read how this is how society controls people is through approval and disapproval and everyone really wants to be accepted and they fear being different or outcast.

There are some raw food bullies who say only eat sprouts or only eat greens or gourmet is ok. We have to understand we all live by ideas and we all go exploring our own little ways to discover more about this diet. TO see if this way is better, or if I remove this from my diet, let us try this etc...

Being fruitarian does not mean you only eat sweet fruits. No there are many savory dishes as well. What about a partially cooked fruitarian, I am sure that will be the next thing.


Being approved by your peers. You throw ideas out on this board and you get responses. Some of them surprise you. But in the end you think, was that approved by the group or disapproved. Was I bad in saying I eat honey, etc

I guess finding common ground is easy, and when it happens it is magic, but then you always get someone who wants to be opposite or different or look at a perspective simply to be different, so you stick out. Some people are like glue and others hate each other.

So are we raw vegan lovers and looking for approbation from each other?

approbation

NOUN
approval or praise:
"the opera met with high approbation"


Being raw has its challenges. That is why there are so many options. We cannot say oh this is good this is bad, because sometimes its that bad that keeps you raw. For that moment. No matter what we must always choose the right ideas about raw. More people need to come out and talk about it and not another zucchini marinara recipe, please, but something new. We need ideas like food. = The right ones!

I praise the movie MAY I BE FRANK 2010. In it a man goes through a raw vegan makeover and the whole movie he is having a mental breakdown. Thats what it is. That is the magic. You can finally feel and all you want to do is cry scream give up yell, exactly like Frank did in the movie. And you know what, by the end, his life was squared away again and he was no longer diabetic. He was a new man. He had called his ex wife, whom he had always loved...and made peace with his daughter and finally met face to face his demons he had been ignoring all his life.
But he could not have done it without the guys at Cafe Gratitude, the ones who approved of him no matter what, even at the cost of their own friendship.


You cannot say no to love. And we all fear disapproval. Shame. Its sad. But sometimes we need to feel those feelings. They are in our muscle memory. Someone will always disapprove of your diet. Even amongst ourselves. Yet someone will always be there to approve of it as well.

I used to think if I was concerned about dental issues, that I was just feeding into all those people who eat raw, yet secretly do not want to eat that way, so they manifest these issues. How does someone get cavities and blame it on dates. Why not question the dentists who now have quotas for root canals daily. Why not question your true will. The mind over matter, you can have healthy teeth.

What do you do when someone goes raw and they start breaking everything they own, saying, I AM NOT HAPPY. You bless that. You do. That is awakening. Maybe they have woken up. This existence this cooked food world...is so hard on people. So hard to live up to the lies. The duties, the unhappiness and no hope and then disease comes. You find you have sores all over your beautiful once body. Or you cannot digest sugar, or you find your poles are reversed through Neuromuscular feedback..you need to get them on raw veganism and yes they might break everything they own, beak up with partners, call up their exes and do what it is they truly want to do. Why is that a bad thing.

No matter what we need to be there for one another. We cannot ignore outcast each other meaning act like they do not exist. If we choose. Free will for all. Of course. What I am saying is as crazy as some people are, lets accept it and look at it as a healing cleansing ritual where we hear each others demons and acknowledge.

Cooked food life, is so damaging to our spirit. It takes a lot to heal and long long time. Some people do not get there so fast. We must be there and listen and help others if we choose. If not, that is perfect too.

If you guys want to add to my conversation go ahead. I don't have a question in mind. But you can meditate on the title and thoughts will come.

Yeah, I think because raw vegans are such a minority, there is a desire to feel like you have to do things 'right' to belong. I remember seeing a raw food board where some people were questioning David Wolfe (who was ridiculously popular and well loved at the time), and a few DW supporters became very spiteful to them, like he was some kind superbeing and how dare anyone question his authority.

TBH what I dislike about the raw community is the emphasis more on 'raw' than health. We should want to be healthy, not want be raw for the sake of raw brownie points i.e. 'look how natural I am' 'look how clean I am!'. I made the mistake of succumbing to the 'cooked food = poison' mentality the first time I went raw. It just sets up a doomed-to-failure loop.

We should just support each other. There's so few people interested in raw veganism, let alone practice any form of it.

Yes Blues Pixie. So few people. And that is how the powers that be will attack us, from within so we fight amongst each other.

The raw food diet works. It works so well. That means we are super targets. We need to stay together. Have you guys ever heard of divide and conquer? The diet speaks for itself. Its a pretty closed philosophy. You cannot infiltrate it unless you are a guru. They sell out all the time.

Money used to be a bi product of success and now thats all people want. I want it. But doing something you love with integrity is smart too.

I am so alone guys. I am all alone here its like 9 am and everyone is sleeping. I got nothing going on today. As usual. Thanks for being here and talking to me and having fun. Being raw is all that matters to me now. At that point. Cannot turn back. I know what I know. I just have to be smarter and eat more savory fruits.

I get mad sometimes I am not on here for days and I get back on and so few replies and so few new topics. Don't you guys want to talk about anything? Must be raw vegan related. Does anyone have goals? Does anyone know any good ideas about being raw?

I have an idea.

Next time you make a salad and instead of just chopping up the tomatoes, cut in half or quarters and scoop out the slimy insides. The textures is much better, without the tomato insides.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2015 05:07PM by coconutcream.

Coconutcream, I though you might have been mad because people were proudly talking about their cooked food intake on raw threads which can lead those on the fence to succumb to temptation. Instead, it's seems, you are just johnrositeish. Disappointed.

Hey Coconutcream,

Did you read that Dr. Flora PDF that Sproutarian posted a long time ago. Dr. Flora made it sound like Ann was close to a fruitarian in Puerto Rico. Is that true? Do you know? Did you ask extensive questions about her diet, both in the United States and in Puerto Rico? What was your experience healthwise when you ate the low fruit HHI diet and the diet in Puert Rico. What was that diet anyway?

What did Flora mean when she said that Ann didn't use so many sprouts in the end? I guess they weren't referring to wheatgrass juice as "sprouts", because she was always into that stuff, right?

I have been through the raw food drama elitism for over 10 years, and it's so old for me. So weary of it. Trying to get down to business now.

you wrote:
How does someone get cavities and blame it on dates.

Tai:
because from the sound of it, he wouldn't stop eating them. After seeing the massive amounts that Freelee and DR would eat, who knows how many boxes of dates did it to MIke's teeth. Mike isn't blaming fruit. Mike continues to be a fruitarian, just sticking to juicy fruit. He loves being raw and wants to always stay raw, that's why he moved to Hawaii. Just like Mango lost of bunch of teeth eating unripe mangoes. He is still raw fruitarian, just avoids the unripe fruit.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Coconutcream, I though you might have been mad
> because people were proudly talking about their
> cooked food intake on raw threads which can lead
> those on the fence to succumb to temptation.
> Instead, it's seems, you are just johnrositeish.
> Disappointed.

coconutcream writes a nice post about approval and disapproval, and zeus

shows her disapproval.

Zeus disapproves of my legumes. I quiver in fear of her disapproval.

But I am not sure she is eating whole plant foods.

Last I heard, she is eating a very high fat diet and no fruit.

If I had cancer I would never have the nerve to eat a high fat diet. I would be packing in as many fruits and vegetables, of all colors, as possible. I would be very high carbohydrate. I would be worried about being undercarbed, undervegged, and underfruited. I would constantly be thinking of new and inventive ways to get more of them in my body!

I do not have cancer but I would still never have the nerve to eat a high fat diet, I mean, not more than as a rare treat.

She dropped a perfectly good diet because of her triglycerides even though she felt fantastic.

In the Ornish studies, triglycerides increased as arteries opened up. Perhaps they are not a marker of pathology if the most stringent measure, actual blood flow, is improving.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

You guys are so sweet. Suez no, I do not get upset about people talking about cooked food. Lets talk about it. If you want, anybody. I will talk about cooked foods. I do not like it, no. I eat it, I feel the void coming on..is that bad? Should I embrace cooked food? Can I tolerate it? Can I make jokes?

Here are some of the posters at HH in Puerto Rico. I had no idea you guys are interested. Here'



AT HH in Puerto Rico, they frowned on sweet fruits. Lalita, a true Ann Wigmore buddy pal, and she runs the place.. and this chef actually got into a fight. He was putting too much papaya out. She said something. Mango may have been thrown.

You see what I am saying
Its fruit racism! He swears!



Here I am AT HH in Puerto Rico. Here is the colonic lady, who gave me the book Course in Miracles. Changed me. I was loved. Too bad I am not a lesbian. It would be match made in heaven for me.


She made me ginger tea. I was super raw, classed myself, and thought even tea was cooked back then. But I drank it anyways.

Isn't that a beautiful place, the roar of the waves was so loud, and the Puerto Ricans have their own style. The men over there all groom their eyebrows and the women wear gold. You are in an oasis. Every house has a horse tied to it.

Arugula, do you think its possible for a raw vegan to have breast cancer? I do not think it is. My boyfriend who is going raw is having detox flashbacks his ex wife died from it and he thinks I may have it. He is losing it.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2015 06:30PM by coconutcream.

It is not only raw fooders. There are many other groups that show the same behaviour. I just think of what I've read at the comments at the Mercola site and I do facepalms of how ignorant people can be and think they are doing something good. You may want to take a look to group thinking: [en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints, by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.

Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup". Furthermore groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup".

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>>
> In the Ornish studies, triglycerides increased as
> arteries opened up. Perhaps they are not a marker
> of pathology if the most stringent measure, actual
> blood flow, is improving.
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

yes, brilliant, and thanks for the reference.

i have been saying this for some time to no avail.

>
> What do you do when someone goes raw and they
> start breaking everything they own, saying, I AM
> NOT HAPPY. You bless that. You do. That is
> awakening. Maybe they have woken up. This
> existence this cooked food world...is so hard on
> people. So hard to live up to the lies. The
> duties, the unhappiness and no hope and then
> disease comes. You find you have sores all over
> your beautiful once body. Or you cannot digest
> sugar, or you find your poles are reversed through
> Neuromuscular feedback..you need to get them on
> raw veganism and yes they might break everything
> they own, beak up with partners, call up their
> exes and do what it is they truly want to do. Why
> is that a bad thing.
>
> No matter what we need to be there for one
> another. We cannot ignore outcast each other
> meaning act like they do not exist. If we choose.
> Free will for all. Of course. What I am saying is
> as crazy as some people are, lets accept it and
> look at it as a healing cleansing ritual where we
> hear each others demons and acknowledge.
>
> Cooked food life, is so damaging to our spirit. It
> takes a lot to heal and long long time. Some
> people do not get there so fast. We must be there
> and listen and help others if we choose. If not,
> that is perfect too.
>
> If you guys want to add to my conversation go
> ahead. I don't have a question in mind. But you
> can meditate on the title and thoughts will come.

Now that I have read your thread on your partner's raw journey I understand what you were referring to in this one. It seems like you are handling the violent situation well enough. At least you seem to be calm and are not freaking out which would have made things harder and worse.

One positive thing that can come out of this right now - you have a good excuse and an excellent reason to upgrade to a nice larger stainless steel dehydrator. It will make your lives easier.

Agreed about avoiding sweet fruits, they have a very dubious effect on the body and mind in my experience,especially the dreaded banana. Fruits like apples are neutral...they don't contribute much to body and mind nor take away.

Years ago l had a bunch of bananas while on holiday with Mr Kearns. Mr Kearns questioned my wisdom like l had lost my mind, and l had to agree that it was a really dumb idea, and not long after l had full regrets and vowed never to pursue such activities ever again. Nasty stuff those bananas.

It is also interesting how Dr Wilson reported visiting natives somewhere. They lived near a wild overgrown banana plantation, yet NONE of them ever ate the bananas. I gathered that their wisdom told them to avoid these dubious foods because of the negative effects on the mind and body.

I had apricots yesterday, the mind and body was negatively effected.

Had broccoli sprout, alfalfa sprout and fenugreek sprout juice this morning. The effects were perfection on the mind and body.

Coconut cream,
the flyer from Puerto rico reads:
by volume:
80% protein/chlorophyll
10-15 % carb
5-10 % fat

Sounds too ambiguous. greens can be fluffy or dense. Volume is too tricky of a word when it comes to greens. Plus they can be juiced or blended. How much green stuff did you eat there and in what form. How did you feel?

TSM wrote:
vowed never to pursue such activities ever again. Nasty stuff those bananas.

Tai:
Never say never.
Once I got injured and couldn't walk for a week. I had to take a lot of herbs. Luckily I had some bananas and I mashed my bitter herbs into the bananas daily. When you add bitter things to sweet things, the effect is different on the blood sugar.

I can't say that I "love" bananas, even the ones that I grow myself and ripen on the "plants". However, they are a nice addition to fruits salads that have astrigent fruits like kiwi and strawberries.

Also once in a while, there is nothing better than adding a banana to a blueberry smoothie, with a vanilla bean and blueberry juice, whole blueberries and almond milk.

Lastly, I never would give up my banana plants for one reason: my hummingbirds. THey love the nectar. Once I decided to try the nectar from the flowers. It was the best thing I ever tasted, better than durian. I took one drop each from 10 flowers. The next day the hummingbird flew in front of my face and performed the "angry" dance. The bird was infuriated that I took the nectar. The bird let me know I did an unforgivable thing and to never do that again. He knew I was the guilty party. Generally the hummingbirds liked me in the past...they would come up to me and greet me. Never mess with a hummingbird. For everyone's sake, those bananas serve the garden well.

Thanks Tai, l have been giving some decent thought about mixing bitter with sweet and would like to talk about this more in coming days. The idea of mixing sweet with bitters has always run against my thinking, but l am willing to discuss and listen to these ideas with an open mind. I never thought we should be covering up the concentrated tastes of sweet and bitter too much because it might cause confusion, but ...

When l mix too many juices togeather or mix certain ones togeather l find the effect is not so good, it seems to be disorganised. This idea makes me wary of mixing fruits with greens, and that's why l have not followed your advice yet.

I look forward to getting back to this later.


Just one quick point...the idea of mixing blueberry with banana makes me cringe. Many of the combinations you suggest make my jaw drop. I will try some experiments, but l need to talk more about your ideas before l am game to try it.


Thanks Tai,and have the best day ever.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 12:19AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Sproutarian,
don't do anything that makes you cringe, please.
I was just sharing to bring some levity. CC loves fruit, right, so I was just sharing some fruit stories, even if you never have another banana in your life. Just sharing a little banana respect.

You are the raw food guru, not me. You have transcended taste, not me. I appreciate your feedback. I knew my sharing didn't fit you, and it helps for you to spell out why.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I had apricots yesterday, the mind and body was
> negatively effected.
>
> Had broccoli sprout, alfalfa sprout and fenugreek
> sprout juice this morning. The effects were
> perfection on the mind and body.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Tai, l have been giving some decent thought
> about mixing bitter with sweet and would like to
> talk about this more in coming days. The idea of
> mixing sweet with bitters has always run against
> my thinking, but l am willing to discuss and
> listen to these ideas with an open mind. I never
> thought we should be covering up the concentrated
> tastes of sweet and bitter too much because it
> might cause confusion, but ...
>
> When l mix too many juices togeather or mix
> certain ones togeather l find the effect is not so
> good, it seems to be disorganised. This idea makes
> me wary of mixing fruits with greens, and that's
> why l have not followed your advice yet.
>
> I look forward to getting back to this later.
>
>
> Just one quick point...the idea of mixing
> blueberry with banana makes me cringe. Many of the
> combinations you suggest make my jaw drop. I will
> try some experiments, but l need to talk more
> about your ideas before l am game to try it.
>
>
> Thanks Tai,and have the best day ever.

TSM, there is nothing unnatural that confuses the digestion about adding sweet and bitter flavored foods together. Nature even packages them together in the same food sometimes. Cacao, strawberries, and pomegranates for instance.

You have plenty of natural examples close at hand to try. Crack a few apricot seeds out of their pits, grind them to powder, and then sprinkle them over a few apricots. If you give it a try I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Arugula, do you think its possible for a raw vegan to have breast cancer? I do not think it is. My boyfriend who is going raw is having detox flashbacks his ex wife died from it and he thinks I may have it. He is losing it.

Yes, I do think such a thing is possible. We search for our diets to perfect us, but I do not think that food is what perfects us. We can perfect our fuel but we must also perfect our minds. I am not particularly Christian but I like this quote: It is not what we put in our mouths that makes us sinners. It is what comes out of our mouths. The quality of our thoughts is also important.

But as Plant Positive says, our bodies are a kluge. We have many (100,000+) retroviruses, etc. in our genome. Also some of us inherit dangerous strand breaks in our DNA. These can go off without provocation, it is merely a matter of statistics. One out of every 99.999% of replications will be faulty. Usually the repair enzymes fix it but not always.

It is possible to be perfectly behaved, to eat perfectly, and still die of cancer. However, having said that, with a perfect diet, our immune systems will be stronger and we will die of it later instead of sooner. Hopefully we die of something else.

I believe in raw. But I do not believe it will undo all the mistakes in our DNA. It is only food and food can only do so much. Same for spirit. We are just bags of meat and sometimes our meat is not perfect.

I don't think this should bother anyone. No matter what we are dealt with, we should do the best we can, or pretty close to it.

PS My mother died a horrible death from breast cancer. My father loved her very much and chose the most aggressive chemotherapy at the time. He wanted her to be alive for as long as possible. He did everything for her: cooked for her, fed her, bathed her, cleaned up her messes. When he took off work to look after her the other doctors made fun of him. But he loved her. He later told me he would never make those choices for himself. Like him, I would choose to go quietly.

I do not want those barbaric treatments. I will eat well and not worry about the rest of it. That is what I would say to your man, also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2015 02:07AM by arugula.

arugula

<<He wanted her to be alive for as long as possible. He did everything for her: cooked for her, fed her, bathed her, cleaned up her messes. When he took off work to look after her the other doctors made fun of him. But he loved he>>


speechless...