Hey jt,

Since it looks like you’ll NEVER do the Calculations that are necessary for you to understand why we have to Limit out Fat Intake in certain situations, especially when we’re trying to lose weight or are simply Not Eating enough Calories, I went on and did them for you and posted them in the Re: lentil sprouts vs bananas Thread.

Scenario #1:
2,000 Calories at rest
1,200 Calories of Fat______________60%
__800 Calories of Carbohydrates___40%

Scenario #2:
2,000 Calories at rest
__500 Calories of non-aerobic activity
2,500 Total Calories
1,200 Calories of Fat______________48%
1,300 Calories of Carbohydrates___52%

Scenario #3:
2,000 Calories at rest
1,000 Calories of non-aerobic activity
3,000 Total Calories
1,200 Calories of Fat______________40%
1,800 Calories of Carbohydrates___60%

Scenario #4:
2,000 Calories at rest
2,000 Calories of non-aerobic activity
4,000 Total Calories
1,200 Calories of Fat______________30%
2,800 Calories of Carbohydrates___70%

Scenario #5:
2,000 Calories at rest
2,400 Calories of 4 hours of continuous aerobic activity
4,400 Total Calories
3,071 Calories of Fat______________70%
1,329 Calories of Carbohydrates___30%

In Scenario #1 above, if we want to lose 2 pounds of Fat a week, we have to reduce our Caloric Intake to 1,000 Calories, which means that we have to Consume ~80% of our Calories from Carbohydrates in order to Protect our Lean Body Mass.

In Scenario #2 above, if we want to lose 2 pounds of Fat a week, we have to reduce our Caloric Intake to 1,500 Calories, which means that we have to Consume ~87% of our Calories from Carbohydrates in order to Protect our Lean Body Mass.

In Scenario #3 above, if we want to lose 2 pounds of Fat a week, we have to reduce our Caloric Intake to 2,000 Calories, which means that we have to Consume ~90% of our Calories from Carbohydrates in order to Protect our Lean Body Mass.

In Scenario #4 above, if we want to lose 2 pounds of Fat a week, we have to reduce our Caloric Intake to 3,000 Calories, which means that we have to Consume ~93% of our Calories from Carbohydrates in order to Protect our Lean Body Mass.

In Scenario #5 above, if we want to lose 2 pounds of Fat a week, we have to reduce our Caloric Intake to 3,400 Calories, which means that we have to Consume ~39% of our Calories from Carbohydrates in order to Protect our Lean Body Mass.

As I have pointed out in a previous Post…

“However, if someone is trying to lose weight, especially excess Fat, by Eating Less Calories, they have to reduce their Fat Intake to ensure they don't lose any Lean Body Mass. In fact, there is an inverse ratio as to how much Fat they can Eat and how much Fat they can SAFELY lose! The only other way to protect their Lean Body Mass is to Consume Excess Protein and Consuming Excess Protein is NOT Safe!!!”

In other words, there are only 2 Ways to Protect our Lean Body Mass whenever we are Eating Less Calories than we burn. The 1st Way is to reduce our Fat Intake to Prevent Gluconeogenesis and the 2nd Way is to Consume Excess Protein and Consuming Excess Protein is NOT Safe!!!

As you can see jt, the EVIDENCE that you kept asking for doesn’t exist because our so-called Experts are Incapable of Thinking Outside the Box!!!

..."necessary for you to understand why we have to Limit out Fat Intake in certain situations, especially when we’re trying to lose weight or are simply Not Eating enough Calories, I went on and did them for you and posted them in the Re: lentil sprouts vs bananas Thread."

"In other words, there are only 2 Ways to Protect our Lean Body Mass whenever we are Eating Less Calories than we burn. The 1st Way is to reduce our Fat Intake to Prevent Gluconeogenesis and the 2nd Way is to Consume Excess Protein and Consuming Excess Protein is NOT Safe!!! ...




THIS IS JUST MORE john rose FRACTURED FAIRY TALE BILGE WATER FROM HIS HAREBRAINED POO P BOWL CHRONICLES!!!


I know for a fact that I ate the same low amount of calories on a hclf raw vegan diet as I did on a very lchf raw vegan diet. (I know this because I weighed all my food and charted everything I ate on chronometer for years.) My weight is the same now (actually even a few pounds less most of the time) as it was then and no other factors, such as exercise level changes, came into play.


FURTHERMORE, when I changed from low fat raw vegan to high fat raw vegan I REGAINED THE MUSCLE MASS I had lost while on the low fat raw vegan diet AND I GOT A LOT STRONGER, with NO EXTRA EFFORT, too!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2015 06:12PM by SueZ.

What percentage of protein intake is "excess"?


[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - Ketogenic diet does not affect strength performance in elite artistic gymnasts - "Despite concerns of coaches and doctors about the possible detrimental effects of low carbohydrate diets on athletic performance and the well known importance of carbohydrates there are no data about VLCKD and strength performance. The undeniable and sudden effect of VLCKD on fat loss may be useful for those athletes who compete in sports based on weight class. We have demonstrated that using VLCKD for a relatively short time period (i.e. 30?days) can decrease body weight and body fat without negative effects on strength performance in high level athletes".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation - "These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2015 06:11PM by jtprindl.

Sue Schadenfreude wrote:

<<<My weight is the same now (actually even a few pounds less most of the time) as it was then and no other factors, such as exercise level changes, came into play.

FURTHERMORE, when I changed from low fat raw vegan to high fat raw vegan I REGAINED THE MUSCLE MASS I had lost while on the low fat raw vegan diet AND I GOT A LOT STRONGER, with NO EXTRA EFFORT, too!>>>

You didn’t Regain the Muscle Mass that you think you LOST because you NEVER had any in the first place - you simply Regained Back the FAT that you LOST. You can’t Magically Gain Muscle “with NO EXTRA EFFORT” and remember, according to you, “I am an old sedentary lady who has had many health accidents and set backs over the years”!!!

Just out of curiosity - where are you finding these studies - on Paleo Websites?

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
“These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level.”
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

This study was done in 1983 before we understood that 90% of our calories after 1 hour of Aerobic Exercise come from Fat. So if a well-trained cyclist biked for 4 hours and burned 2,400 Calories, ~1871 of those Calories or ~78% of those Calories would be Fat Calories, so of course, a Low Fat Diet would NOT affect their endurance, especially with all of that extra PROTEIN!!!

“The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation”

According to Jeff Novich, “Athletes with low glycogen stores, metabolize 2x the amount of protein as athletes who are carb loaded. ...So the excess protein is needed for energy and not muscle, due to a lack of carb intake.”

Once again, everyone knows that High Protein Ketogenic Diets are UNSAFE, which is why children with Epilepsy are taken off Ketogenic Diets as soon as possible!!!

<<<What percentage of protein intake is "excess"?>>>

According to the other article you posted in the Re: lentil sprouts vs bananas Thread, “relatively high in protein” = “adequate amounts of protein”!

So you tell me jt, what is considered “Excess Protein”?

Is it the amount above what we normally need when we are Eating Foods that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat or is it the amount above what we need in Emergency Situations?

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> 6/ - Ketogenic diet does not affect strength
> performance in elite artistic gymnasts - "Despite
> concerns of coaches and doctors about the possible
> detrimental effects of low carbohydrate diets on
> athletic performance and the well known importance
> of carbohydrates there are no data about VLCKD and
> strength performance. The undeniable and sudden
> effect of VLCKD on fat loss may be useful for
> those athletes who compete in sports based on
> weight class. We have demonstrated that using
> VLCKD for a relatively short time period (i.e.
> 30?days) can decrease body weight and body fat
> without negative effects on strength performance
> in high level athletes".
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - The
> human metabolic response to chronic ketosis
> without caloric restriction: preservation of
> submaximal exercise capability with reduced
> carbohydrate oxidation - "These results indicate
> that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained
> cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of
> ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic
> physiologic adaptation that conserved limited
> carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle
> glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle
> substrate at this submaximal power level."

Yes, ketosis can be muscle sparing!!

"This study was done in 1983"

The first one I linked was done in 2012.

"According to Jeff Novich, “Athletes with low glycogen stores, metabolize 2x the amount of protein as athletes who are carb loaded. ...So the excess protein is needed for energy and not muscle, due to a lack of carb intake.”

Once again, everyone knows that High Protein Ketogenic Diets are UNSAFE, which is why children with Epilepsy are taken off Ketogenic Diets as soon as possible!!!"

You don't need high amounts of carbs for energy, you can get energy from fat. Again, what is "high protein" or "excess protein"? You are the one basing your calculations off avoiding "excess protein" therefore you should have a definitive answer as to what it truly is. If I'm one of your clients and I ask you this question, what are you going to tell me? Unless any of these 'High Protein Ketogenic Diet' studies were conducted on raw, plant-based fats and amino acids, they are not applicable. Also, nutritional ketosis is NOT an emergency situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2015 07:27PM by jtprindl.

>Unless any of these 'High Protein Ketogenic Diet' studies were conducted on raw, plant-based fats and amino acids, they are not applicable.

So you should tell organic1 that all those heart disease studies implicating triglycerides are invalid since they are not done on raw plant based fats

organic1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be honest i can't even follow what the original
> discussion is meant to be about ?
>
> 0.8-1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is the most
> common accepted RDA for protein.
>
> So if you weigh 14 stone, which is 88kg, you would
> need about 88g of protein daily.
>
> Very difficult to achieve that on a fruit based
> diet, unless you start consuming 3000+ calories,
> in which case you end up consuming irrational
> quantities of sugar in the process. And even then
> you will probably be about 40g of protein off your
> target.
>
> Just another reason why a 80/10/10 high fruit diet
> sucks, 10 percent fat and protein are both far too
> low to be healthy in the long-term.
>
> Absolutely no reason to restrict fat and protein
> to these unhealthy levels, and then to compensate
> by consuming 80% of your diet from carbohydrates.
>
> So imbalanced.


John Rose claimed that anything over 30% fat is potentially dangerous and can result in a loss of lean body mass while stating that the only way to avoid this is eating excess protein even though he cannot define what "excess" is.

He also claims that nutritional ketosis is the same as ketoacidosis and "ONLY an Emergency Mode that should ONLY be used in Emergency Situations", both of which are false. Nutritional ketosis is simply the metabolic process of burning fat for fuel and doesn't have any harmful physiological consequences compared to glycolysis.

<<<Yes, ketosis can be muscle sparing!!>>>

Yes, BUT ONLY WHEN YOU CONSUME EXCESS PROTEIN and Consuming Excess Protein is NOT Safe!!!

JR wrtote:

"This study was done in 1983"

jt wrtote:

<<<The first one I linked was done in 2012.>>>

I was referring to the 2nd study you posted and I made reference to it with the link right above my comment, but I made a mistake and put the wrong study uderneathe my comment.

This is how my post should have looked with the corrections in []…

Just out of curiosity - where are you finding these studies - on Paleo Websites?

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
“These results indicate that aerobic endurance exercise by well-trained cyclists was not compromised by four weeks of ketosis. This was accomplished by a dramatic physiologic adaptation that conserved limited carbohydrate stores (both glucose and muscle glycogen) and made fat the predominant muscle substrate at this submaximal power level.”
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

This study [The study above] was done in 1983 before we understood that 90% of our calories after 1 hour of Aerobic Exercise come from Fat. So if a well-trained cyclist biked for 4 hours and burned 2,400 Calories, ~1871 of those Calories or ~78% of those Calories would be Fat Calories, so of course, a Low Fat Diet would NOT affect their endurance, especially with all of that extra PROTEIN!!!

“The human metabolic response to chronic ketosis without caloric restriction: preservation of submaximal exercise capability with reduced carbohydrate oxidation”

[“Ketogenic diet does not affect strength performance in elite artistic gymnasts -”]

According to Jeff Novich, “Athletes with low glycogen stores, metabolize 2x the amount of protein as athletes who are carb loaded. ...So the excess protein is needed for energy and not muscle, due to a lack of carb intake.”

Once again, everyone knows that High Protein Ketogenic Diets are UNSAFE, which is why children with Epilepsy are taken off Ketogenic Diets as soon as possible!!!

<<<What percentage of protein intake is "excess"?>>>

According to the other article you posted in the Re: lentil sprouts vs bananas Thread, “relatively high in protein” = “adequate amounts of protein”!

So you tell me jt, what is considered “Excess Protein”?

Is it the amount above what we normally need when we are Eating Foods that we are Biologically Adapted to Eat or is it the amount above what we need in Emergency Situations?

"You can’t Magically Gain Muscle “with NO EXTRA EFFORT"
and remember, according to you, “I am an old sedentary lady who has had many health accidents and set backs over the years”!!!



Remember, Kristin Suzanne, (who is younger than me, exercised a lot, and was a body builder), had the same muscle tone loss problem I did while on that diet. We both lost our butts and now have them back again by changing diets!

Too bad Kristin Suzanne didn't know about high fat low carb raw vegan diets at the time. She, and many, many other women who quit hclf diets when they lost muscle tone, their womanly curves, their butts, their menses, their fertility, could still be vegan today, IMO, had they tried lchf.

Instead most of them went straight back to meat eating thanks to know nothing puffed up self proclaimed "expert scientists" scum bag produce aisle pied pipers like you.

P.S. In this lifetime I will never be as old as you, old man, ever, and you don't look a day under your age in any case. You look old enough to be Marcus Rothkranz' grandfather.

"Yes, BUT ONLY WHEN YOU CONSUME EXCESS PROTEIN and Consuming Excess Protein is NOT Safe!!!"

Prove it... and also prove what "excess" protein is. I'll just repeat what I said since you ignored all of it..

You don't need high amounts of carbs for energy, you can get energy from fat. Again, what is "high protein" or "excess protein"? You are the one basing your calculations off avoiding "excess protein" therefore you should have a definitive answer as to what it truly is. If I'm one of your clients and I ask you this question, what are you going to tell me? Unless any of these 'High Protein Ketogenic Diet' studies were conducted on raw, plant-based fats and amino acids, they are not applicable. Also, nutritional ketosis is NOT an emergency situation.

And I'm finding these studies on my own.

organic1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be honest i can't even follow what the original
> discussion is meant to be about ?
>
> 0.8-1g of protein per kg of bodyweight is the most
> common accepted RDA for protein.
>
> So if you weigh 14 stone, which is 88kg, you would
> need about 88g of protein daily.
>
> Very difficult to achieve that on a fruit based
> diet, unless you start consuming 3000+ calories,
> in which case you end up consuming irrational
> quantities of sugar in the process. And even then
> you will probably be about 40g of protein off your
> target.
>
> Just another reason why a 80/10/10 high fruit diet
> sucks, 10 percent fat and protein are both far too
> low to be healthy in the long-term.
>
> Absolutely no reason to restrict fat and protein
> to these unhealthy levels, and then to compensate
> by consuming 80% of your diet from carbohydrates.
>
> So imbalanced.

if you think theres no reason to do something the don't do it.
just watch others who are actually doing it.

too much of this, too little of that, you're such a worrywart.

even your example of 35 oranges as being imbalanced is wrong as it's adequate in everything except selenium, and a little low in fats. and that's just oranges.

you ever heard of chris califano?

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You can’t Magically Gain Muscle “with NO
> EXTRA EFFORT"
> and remember, according to you, “I am an old
> sedentary lady who has had many health accidents
> and set backs over the years”!!!
>
>
>
> Remember, Kristin Suzanne, (who is younger than
> me, exercised a lot, and was a body builder), had
> the same muscle tone loss problem I did while on
> that diet. We both lost our butts and now have
> them back again by changing diets!
>
> Too bad Kristin Suzanne didn't know about high fat
> low carb raw vegan diets at the time. She, and
> many, many other women who quit hclf diets when
> they lost muscle tone, their womanly curves, their
> butts, their menses, their fertility, could still
> be vegan today, IMO, had they tried lchf.
>
> Instead most of them went straight back to meat
> eating thanks to know nothing puffed up self
> proclaimed "expert scientists" scum bag produce
> aisle pied pipers like you.
>
> P.S. In this lifetime I will never be as old as
> you, old man, ever, and you don't look a day under
> your age in any case. You look old enough to be
> Marcus Rothkranz' grandfather.

kristin suzanne????

suez why don't you view 40belowfruitys video on kristen suzanne before you put forth such BS.

kristin suzanne didn't know what the heck she was doing. you can easily fail when you dont know what you're doing.

"suez why don't you view 40belowfruitys video on kristen suzanne before you put forth such BS"

I just did - and, as usual, it was a very low level waste of time task was you sent me on, fresh. Never again.

Her video was but another grade school level emotionally based appeals targeting very young viewers to push the miserable excuse for a diet, 80-10-10, as the only thing that can save the animals.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "suez why don't you view 40belowfruitys video on
> kristen suzanne before you put forth such BS"
>
> I just did - and, as usual, it was a very low
> level waste of time task was you sent me on,
> fresh. Never again.
>
> Her video was but another grade school level
> emotionally based appeals targeting very young
> viewers to push the miserable excuse for a diet,
> 80-10-10, as the only thing that can save the
> animals.

naturally you have missed the point.

she pulled her actual diet off her blog and it's a joke
just like that other ex vegan who was morgan spurlocks girlfriend who failed at vegan but ate a horrible diet.
as well suzanne ate ample cooked food and grains

did you also eat a horrible diet like these women and then blame the diet?
I would think so since you're using it as some example for muscle loss .

self reflection seems to be a rare commodity -blaming the diet and selling books about your ex vegan experience seems more lucrative for those with insufficient knowledge and insight.

Here is a PERFECT example of confusion and misinformation perpetrated here.

So the accusation is that JR and others like him led poor kristin suzanne down the wrong path and forced her to abandon her dangerous low fat? vegan? diet?


SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Remember, Kristin Suzanne, (who is younger than
> me, exercised a lot, and was a body builder), had
> the same muscle tone loss problem I did while on
> that diet. We both lost our butts and now have
> them back again by changing diets!
>
> Too bad Kristin Suzanne didn't know about high fat
> low carb raw vegan diets at the time. She, and
> many, many other women who quit hclf diets when
> they lost muscle tone, their womanly curves, their
> butts, their menses, their fertility, could still
> be vegan today, IMO, had they tried lchf.
>
> Instead most of them went straight back to meat
> eating thanks to know nothing puffed up self
> proclaimed "expert scientists" scum bag produce
> aisle pied pipers like you.
>
> P.S. In this lifetime I will never be as old as
> you, old man, ever, and you don't look a day under
> your age in any case. You look old enough to be
> Marcus Rothkranz' grandfather.


kristin says:
My family is no longer eating a vegan diet.

Suez says that if she had just gone high fat low carb all her problems would
Be solved and she wouldn’t eat animal products.
Let us take a look at Kristin Suzanne and her vegan diet shall we?

I had thought I was eating and living the ideal lifestyle so, despite making constant tweaks and adjustments (superfoods, fancy juicers, superherbs, tonic herbs, prepping foods various ways to optimize nutrients, following rules for combining or not combining certain foods like having vitamin c with iron rich plants – just to name a few), never in a million years would I have entertained the idea of making such a radical change. But, that’s exactly what happened.

*many ERRORS above*

What were my specific health issues from being a vegan so long?
Fertility. Well, you all know we struggled with fertility. It’s still a big “what if,” but I feel in my core that we were not nourished enough to conceive on our own. I now know that, despite superfoods and supplements up the wazoo, we lacked some essential fertility-supporting nutrients… stuff you just can’t get in a pill or any bizarre exotic mix of daily goji berries and maca. I could go on at length about just this one issue, but it deserves an entire post which perhaps I’ll write at some point, with all the gory technical details.
. Or, perhaps it was the vegan food such as grains and legumes, which can be hard to digest.

YES YES YES

Lastly, my cupboard was becoming a pharmacy of supplements as I tried to keep my family’s intake of nutrients balanced, but which probably was even more unbalanced as I took many supplements in isolation. I became increasingly leery of this because I knew intuitively that the best nutrients are found in real whole foods… not isolated in supplements. Not to mention, it had become a monthly line item on the household budget comparable to a car payment.

ERRORS above


1. Nuts and seed oils (as well as grains) can be high sources of omega six fatty acids, which can be a problem especially when my diet wasn’t a strong source of omega three fatty acids in spite of my consumption of hemp, chia, and supplements. For example, eating a vegan burrito (or even a sans-tortilla “bowl”) at Chipotle was not a great choice like I had thought it was. There is refined soybean oil in about everything Chipotle makes. And, don’t get me started on the tortilla (see number 3 below).

more dietary ERRORS above

Another example: Eating loads of nut-filled raw brownies was not great either.

another dietary ERROR



2. Drinking all of those protein shakes because I craved protein. I became curious as to why I was even craving protein, not to mention the possible consequences of consuming a powdered and concentrated food like that with warnings of metal contaminants, etc. A protein shake here and there, no biggie, but to have it much more often than that because we were trying to add protein to our diet is another deal altogether. (Why did it take me so long to realize this???)

dietary ERROR
“CRAVED PROTEIN”?

3. Um, gluten is the devil. ‘Nuff said.

YES

4. Retinol is important for so much including pregnancy, fertility, breastfeeding. And beta-carotene will not cut it – at least not for my family. (This one alone probably pisses me off the most because retinol is only in animal foods. You never hear vegans warn about it like they do B12, and who knows the problems I caused my family by avoiding it.)

NONSENSE

5. Iodine and my lack of it from not eating fish (and mostly gagging at sea veggies) was not good. And on top of that… consuming massive quantities of crucifers (daily juicing, anyone?) might have negatively affected my thyroid, which could alter many things including fertility. Honestly, I knew crucifers could be problems for people with thyroid issues but I presumed my thyroid was in top shape. Who knows what potential damage I was doing to my thyroid gorging on so many green juices, green smoothies, green powders, and kale salads, and not balancing it with enough iodine-rich foods.

dietary ERRORS

6. Important nutrients were missing (fat soluble nutrients, choline, etc), and supplements weren’t cutting it. I sure tried though. I’ve learned a lot over the months regarding the importance of fat soluble vitamins, the source of them, the absurdly complex ways that they interplay with each other for optimal health, how they are important for other nutrients that aren’t fat soluble, and — bottom line — how much easier and better it is to get them from foods instead of trying to add them through isolation in my diet. At the risk of flogging myself too much for one blog post, I just can’t believe I didn’t consider this stuff before.

nonsense

7. Cholesterol is not the devil. This alone flipped my worldview upside down when we learned more about cholesterol. Do you know I had a cholesterol reading once a few years ago that was 95?! And, to think I bragged about that. I’m ashamed of that now.
8. Soy, always a bit iffy, now seriously scares the crap out of me, no matter what form.

TRUE

9. I questioned the amount of grains and legumes we had in our diet and how it contributed to our problems. Not only are they an inferior source of nutrients (especially for a growing child like Kamea), but they increase the overall sugar load in the body and I was eating a lot as a result of increased hunger due to pregnancy, breastfeeding, being active, and basically not being nourished. (The degree to which legumes are problematic for human digestion continues to be hotly debated and researched as you read this.)

dietary ERROR

So to conclude from all this we are to believe the VEGAN diet is to blame????
lord help me.

we have a person trotted out as a VEGAN who had absolutely no clue as to how to formulate a proper diet. and THIS is a person that we use to criticize the VEGAN diet, or the RAW diet?

This is exactly the kind of rubbish I am talking about.

"did you also eat a horrible diet like these women and then blame the diet?"


First of all I came from being a decades long vegetarian NOT from eating a SAD diet. I was not on Kristan Suzanne's, (or anyone else's), diet. I just, in the very beginning of my raw food journey, used her, and other raw vegan gourmet chef's, raw vegan gourmet recipes and cook books.

I did not use any recipes with grains. I had no pseudo-philosophical puffed up gurus - I didn't consider my diet as a "lifestyle" I just had raw vegan recipes and raw vegan recipe books.

I wasn't looking for a new age, or any other age, fake religion. I didn't know about the gurus and salesmen or that the whole raw food movement's history was founded on a few good ideas buried in a steaming dung heap of fakery left to us by a variety of liars, con men and women, and thieves. (And I don't care if this is more than you want to hear or consider relevant.)

I did well on raw gourmet. I did not eat a lot of fats or carbs at that time. It was a balanced diet. It wasn't until I got sucked up into the "take raw vegan to the highest level hclf" BS that I, like so many others, ran into big problems.

One of those problems was, as I subsequently found out, that I need much more omega 3's on hclf than I was getting from mostly fruits and veggies. Once I got off that diet the problem was easily resolved. The reason I originally brought up Kristen is because of her description of some of the peculiar symptoms which happened to her also happened to me - as I have gone into in detail in past threads.

Many raw vegans, for various reasons, have left the raw vegan movement and gone back to omnivore diets. Several of them still have a presence on the web and seem to be doing well. In fact all the other raw vegan gourmet chefs whose recipes I use, still appear to be doing very well and are still raw vegans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 12:08PM by SueZ.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "did you also eat a horrible diet like these women
> and then blame the diet?"
>
>
> First of all I came from being a decades long
> vegetarian NOT from eating a SAD diet. I was not
> on Kristan Suzanne's, (or anyone else's), diet. I
> just, in the very beginning of my raw food
> journey, used her, and other raw vegan gourmet
> chef's, raw vegan gourmet recipes and cook books.
>
>
> I did not use any recipes with grains. I had no
> pseudo-philosophical puffed up gurus - I didn't
> consider my diet as a "lifestyle" I just had raw
> vegan recipes and raw vegan recipe books.
>
> I wasn't looking for a new age, or any other age,
> fake religion. I didn't know about the gurus and
> salesmen or that the whole raw food movement's
> history was founded on a few good ideas buried in
> a steaming dung heap of fakery left to us by a
> variety of liars, con men and women, and thieves.
> (And I don't care if this is more than you want to
> hear or consider relevant.)
>
> I did well on raw gourmet. I did not eat a lot of
> fats or carbs at that time. It was a balanced
> diet. It wasn't until I got sucked up into the
> "take raw vegan to the highest level hclf" BS that
> I, like so many others, ran into big problems.

I don't know how you do raw gourmet without being high fat.

As I said, since you consider kristina to have horrible lipid panels, and since you have not stated yours, I don't consider that your view of lipid panels agrees with mine nor her own doctors. triglycerides have been as high as 3000. As far as your other problems that were similar to kristin suzanne's perhaps you ended up in a similar place on a different road but to me the reasons are not clear. 90% of the time we think we know without a clear causal connection or evidence thereof.

>
> One of those problems was, as I subsequently found
> out, that I need much more omega 3's on hclf than
> I was getting from mostly fruits and veggies.

I have been told this before by a person who claimed she needed more fat. and yet her symptoms did not match low fat symptoms. you may feel that was a cause and your symptoms matched, yet the fats are available on a reasonable raw diet. It is certainly possible that you were low, although it could also be something else since you don't have a TEST result that verifies it nor the cause. And yet again, your result does not mean that the hclf is flawed or dangerous inherently.

Once
> I got off that diet the problem was easily
> resolved. The reason I originally brought up
> Kristen is because of her description of some of
> the peculiar symptoms which happened to her also
> happened to me - as I have gone into in detail in
> past threads.
>

So many people say "that diet" as if a hclf diet consists of X foods in X amounts. There are a million ways to do "that diet". I have just shown how kristen's "vegan" dietary problems were not caused by the VEGAN diet. They were caused by HER diet. If people can't see how bad her diet was, I don't know what to say.

Same thing is often true of RAW dietary failures upon closer examination from what I have seen.

If 10 people try to long jump over 10 feet and 5 can't do it, I don't say that jumping 10 feet is bad, wrong, dangerous.

And I don't recommend anyone continue doing anything that they feel is not working.

There's no question problems can arise on diets and raw can be difficult. But cooked is no party either and higher fat is no guarantee of health.


> Many raw vegans, for various reasons, have
> left the raw vegan movement and gone back to
> omnivore diets. Several of them still have a
> presence on the web and seem to be doing well. In
> fact all the other raw vegan gourmet chefs whose
> recipes I use, still appear to be doing very well
> and are still raw vegans.

In the world that we live, to expect people to be 100% raw 100% vegan Easily and if it's not then the diet is flawed, is a ridiculous idea.

Being raw vegan in this world is difficult in so many ways- I will spare you my corny metaphors about kids in candy's shops and the like.

I think it would be wise that we never speak to each other again, so that I can treasure this rare peaceful exchange like a night blooming cereus.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 04:08PM by fresh.

"I don't know how you do raw gourmet without being high fat."

It's all relative.


The problems I didn't have until going hclf for 11 months got better when I reduced carbs to <100 grams a day and drastically increased fats in my raw vegan diet. No more blood sugar problems and I am no longer hungry or thinking about food all the time.

My weight, (which waivers between 117 and 122 lbs. - I'm just shy of 5'8" ) is the same as it was when I got most of my calories from fruit as it is now. I have regained my strength that I lost on hclf and people tell me I look much better now than I did while I was on mainly fruit. I am also spending less than half what I was spending for food on high fruit raw vegan, too, so I'm all around much happier and healthier now than I was then.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2015 05:01PM by SueZ.

Results of 30-Day Green Juice Cleanse
[www.youtube.com]

This is why so many people struggle with Eating our Ideal Diet - they don't do what this woman did!!!

Indeed, FASTING is the BEST preparation for a Better Way of Life!!!

!!!

"FASTING is the BEST preparation for a Better Way of Life!!!"

I agree with this statement - so long as the fast is not a fruit juice fast.

I also agree that enemas are an important preparation.


What human's complete and "Ideal Diet" is, though, is something which still remains in the mystery zone at this point.

As the baby boom generation ages more and more smart, knowledgeable, and capable people from numerous related and unrelated fields are taking time out to study the problem of diet so we should benefit from new breakthroughs in not too long - hopefully in time for us to make use of them. These baby boomers I'm talking about are at the age when even the most highly brainwashed start breaking training and as they themselves are aging (mostly rather badly) they have a vested interest in pushing the envelope into the dietary research unknown areas with some urgency. I am very pleased to be seeing this development starting to happen around me in smart people who have only recently become passionately interested in diet.

The old ways are no longer good enough. We, the entire food chain, and our planet have changed too much for that. WE ARE ON NEW GROUND.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I don't know how you do raw gourmet without being
> high fat."
>
> It's all relative.
>
>
> The problems I didn't have until going hclf for 11
> months got better when I reduced carbs to <100
> grams a day and drastically increased fats in my
> raw vegan diet. No more blood sugar problems and I
> am no longer hungry or thinking about food all the
> time.
>
> My weight, (which waivers between 117 and 122
> lbs. - I'm just shy of 5'8" ) is the same as it
> was when I got most of my calories from fruit as
> it is now. I have regained my strength that I lost
> on hclf and people tell me I look much better now
> than I did while I was on mainly fruit. I am also
> spending less than half what I was spending for
> food on high fruit raw vegan, too, so I'm all
> around much happier and healthier now than I was
> then.


would be interesting to know what you did exactly, but I understand that it's old news and you may not want to get into it.

jericho sunfire shrunk down and was weak over a long period when he started raw, then built it back up again, all on low fat.

increasing fruit again might prove what the issue was/is one way or another but i know that aint gonna happen.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2015 01:29AM by fresh.

a couple final comments

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The problems I didn't have until going hclf for 11
> months got better when I reduced carbs to <100
> grams a day and drastically increased fats in my
> raw vegan diet. No more blood sugar problems and I
> am no longer hungry or thinking about food all the
> time.

You had some problems and fixed some of them at least by changing your diet.

My only dispute is the conclusion that you were low in omega 3 or that eating higher fat was the only solution.

I don't dispute things to be argumentative. It's just not a good idea to accept a proposition without sufficient evidence. At this point there is no evidence that the problem was low omega 3's. That deficiency is rare and not matched by your symptoms nor were there any clinical tests showing that fact. We draw conclusions that seem most likely to us but there are often hidden causes. There are many other possible causes including lower salt intake causing shrinkage, loss of fat (not muscle), long cleansing process, not enough greens, undereating, low insulin output, etc etc.

>I am no longer hungry or thinking about food all the time.
>

This is a big clue that it was a solvable problem since this problem occurs in many people going raw. Many people quit because of it and it's totally understandable. But for others, it Goes Away, which shows that it is temporary, and caused by bodily changes taking longer than we would like or small dietary errors such as insufficient greens or poor food selection or some other problem.

I can't accept that people are so different as to cause such varying results in this area. of course we have minor differences but I don't think to a level that explains the disparate outcomes with raw diets.

> My weight, (which waivers between 117 and 122
> lbs. - I'm just shy of 5'8" ) is the same as it
> was when I got most of my calories from fruit as
> it is now. I have regained my strength that I lost
> on hclf and people tell me I look much better now
> than I did while I was on mainly fruit. I am also
> spending less than half what I was spending for
> food on high fruit raw vegan, too, so I'm all
> around much happier and healthier now than I was
> then.

Whatever works.

Again many people go through a transition where it feels and looks bad but come out better after. I understand a year is a long time and that seems like a cop out to say it wasn't done long enough, but I've seen it many times and small mistakes can cause big problems during a transition.


brian clement's fruit theory is another example of a conclusion based on not only insufficient evidence but contradicted by other evidence that is ignored.


Also, I have gone through many phases like feeling like I needed nuts every day, or avocadoes every day or I didn't feel right. I could easily conclude as many people do, that I was low in fat since those are fat predominant. But in fact those cravings went away, kind of disproving that theory.