So my plight begins, well actually there is no plight. But the story starts roughly 2 years ago, at age 19, when I discovered the greatness that is going raw. Althought I was only 60-80%, I lost lots of fat. I was already a skinny guy, but going raw just made me lose the flab. I enjoyed high endurance, better overall health and appearance, consistant good moods, and some sort of "Lightness" to my feet, as well as increased energy.

Anyway, let's get down to it. I was very skinny. 6'1, and 164 pounds at my leanest. Sure I was "Ripped" but I also borderline "Starving" looking. Well due to some issues with depression I went back to cooked food, and well, gained lots of weight, (AND FAT) - Let's just say I went up to 200 pounds. And no, it wasn't muscle either.

Eventually, I added some raw foods back into my life, and lost the weight, but I still wasn't at the physique I wanted. I knew I just couldn't gain the right ammount of muscle eating only raw. I would simply have to consume insane ammounts of fruits/vegtables/whatever to get to a weight I wanted.

I started to take bodybuilding seriously, and my diet as well. I started to bulk up (Standard american diet) style. Although this wasn't exactly ideal. Fast food, soda, anything goes. I went up to 219 pounds, the most I ever weighed in my life. I gained considerable ammounts of muscle, but I also gained a hefty ammount of fat. (Wich I am working on losing)

Well, I added some more raw foods back in my life, but I'm not quite 100%. You see, the problem is, when losing fat, I noticed that trying to do it the "Raw-food" way accounts to a substantial loss in muscle. And by all means, That is the last thing I want to do! Lose all my hard earned strength? No! I can't do it. I am keeping moderate meats and proteins in my diet to sustain my muscle. It just seems when I try to eat more raw/vegan my muscles become less "Hardened" and my strength (In weights) diminish.

Now don't get me wrong, 2 years ago on the 60-80% raw, strict vegetarian (no meat) I was able to do some pretty interesting physical feats. that to this day, I have yet to be able to do again. (Break a car windshield with an axe kick, or a 540 hurricane kick, wich come to mind) - BUT; as far as retaining muscle mass and strength, it simply seems to me at the moment, that my protein needs are far more important, (Especially at my new weight of 210) to maintain a healthy feel.

You see, because my weight is high, that would mean more raw food. At the time of weighing 160, eating 60-80% raw was much easier, because my body didn't need that much calories to feel "satisfied" - Now, with my weight higher, it seems the ammount to sustain "satisfaction" with raw is insane 12-16 bananas+ a day, ect.

Well, life-long fitness is my goal, it goes to the very being of my core-existance. I would want to be secure in my knowledge, for the future, and for my own well being, as a person on this earth, to know I am doing what is best for my body. I consult to you, "raw fooders"; a small population on this earth, for your best advice. Because I know that this style of eating is very unpopular, very exclusive, I wonder if this is the right way to go?

In my future, as a raw fooder, I see great energy, happiness, livliehood (sp?) ect, but I also see a loss of strength, somthing I pride myself in having acheived (body building) - who doesn't want to be big and strong? HAH. I know a very small portion of people (or if none) have had any sucess in gaining any strength or size when it comes to this diet. I know for a fact this diet rocks endurance wise, and you can perform amazing physical feats in just a month or two of eating this way with exercise. But as far as strength goes, well you know the old bodybuilding saying "EAT TO GROW" - and as far as I can say, I have never really "grown" on just fruits/veggies.

I know you all know exactly where I am coming from on this, so I ask you all with the best of your knowledge, what you can bring to the table on this subject. Even if you dont think you know much, I'd still like to hear your opinion, because as far as I can tell you all, I am in a "FORK in the road" so to speak, willing to make a decision to base my life around, but not sure wich decision is right. Try to go all the way with raw? or Keep what I am doing. (Wich is eating raw mixed with some non-vegan sources)

Well if you got this far, you have my gratitude for listening to this slightly confused stranger. So without further ado, opinions please



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2006 06:44AM by darkw00ds.

My initial thoughts are maybe it's not possible to do what you want to do on raw. Raw helps you become more "natural" and what you want doesn't sound "natural" to me.

Whatever happens though, you're going to need to go through a change over time where you will probably get weaker before you can get stronger again.

And now the practical suggestion - hemp seeds. The best source of raw protein. I make hemp milk by soaking hemp seeds then blending them with water and straining through a muslin bag. This milk can then be drunk as it is, or used in smoothies or just sweetened with a couple of dates.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

Yeah....I went through that when I first started....it comes as a shock to see all your wieght strength melt away and I understand your frustration....

But....


you gotta put your bodies needs first....you've kick started your cleansing process and unfortunaly your body doesn't know anything about your lifestyle or other engagments and is just doing it's job....eating more cooked food to maintain your "fake bulk" is just gonna make it take longer...

Stay raw and active....this is one of many stages in your journey and when your bodies done doing it's thing then you'll get your performance back and then some....TRUST ME!!!!

F1





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2006 01:53PM by The Fruitarian One.

Hello folks,

I totally agree with eating animal protein along with tons of salad!

Having the need to put on muscle due to chronic eczema, I checked out all the various ways that I could consume protein that was good for both my skin and easy to gain muscle mass with. Had nutmilks which I made myself, but that caused severe itching and herpes which had to quickly be dissolved with food like fish and evening primrose oil. When I did the math - it costs more to buy the various nuts, seeds, coconut oil, EPO, fish oil etc than to just have goat milk kefir (which makes a tremendous skin tone difference), with fish and large amounts of salad comprising of up to 9 different types of veg in a very large bowl.

I grow mung, lentil, adzuki, puy lentil sprouts at home which helps a lot.

Also changing from juicing to blending keeps the skin from exfoliating in buckets as well as keeping me sane.

Being female, 5'6" and just 60kg seems to be fine, but like I said, I really need to tone up and going to the gym (even just 3x a week) means eating 5 times a day....

I found that whilst on an 80% raw diet and going to Uni still made me lose weight even though I was eating 5 times a day...so I really empathise with this guy....

As one gets older you tend to lose muscle, and unless you revolve your life around food, and where to get it wholesale, fresh etc and still have a life...that's the question... I really can't afford to lose any more weight as I'm also hypoglycaemic (got low blood sugar).

Has anyone got any ideas?

Star241

Hello Darkwood....(again!!)

Some great people on this forum put up a Free Raw Food ebook which is very interesting...Have been reading their experiences and there are lots of recipes (full of sugary food!) that could be good to try...

I guess the only way to do this is experiment....12 avocado a week, guacamole...bowlfuls of either fruit salad or veg salad...

Banana smoothies with sprouts, 1 garlic clove and dice pieces of lemon including the rind...(yeah, know it sounds foul but it tastes like heaven) just started doing this this week as I'm always experimenting to see what blends best with what and what tastes good....lemon and rind gives a lovely taste and kick to the blandest of smoothies...

100% raw....Hmmmm! I'm living in London and have got to be real practical here!! If I was in the middle of the jungle with all the natural food around me - that's a different story - just pick it off the trees and eat as much or as little as you feel like!!!

Darkwood...hope your journey goes well....

Star

Hmm...I may be wrong on this (and I don't want to offend you in any way) but it sounds like you have "body building" associated with your identity. Why is it really that you want to bulk up? To me, it seems like something outside yourself is causing you to try extra hard to be bigger. I can relate to this because I myself have struggled to be something I am not naturally to change the way I look. This is a mental trap we all can succumb to...please don't!

You may want to visit with your spirit and ask it why it "needs" to be the "big bulky man" you're longing to be. This is something that is obviously been causing you stress in your life. Don't get me wrong - I'm am totally for strength training and do it intensely on 100% Raw and I have no problem building muscle even though I am a women...

My opinion is (and this is just my 2 cents)
You need to cut yourself a break (on the bulking up)
Detox your body from the cooked food (slowly)
Suppliment lots of protein rich raw food and
Keep on training for your HEALTH not the way you LOOK....Our society puts way too much emphasis on the way we look and not enough on the way we feel. Please find peace with your body and be gentle and loving with it. I'm sure your body is perfect and devine in it's clean and natural state.

Peace,

Jen Rose

Jen Rose

"You must first unlearn the lies, and then you will have room for the truth"

Hey Jen,
You have a good point there on the identity thing. Well to be honest with you, one of the main reasons I wanted to bulk up, was because I want to look proportional (Not the stick figure look) - Since then I've gained more of a male shape, rather then being a 6'2 stick. I've been the "skinny guy" all my life, and well, just wanted to try somthing different for a change. I feel better knowing I am filling out my shirts, lookings more proportional, (and to many others) stronger and healthier. I guess it's just a self-esteem thing.

Fruitarion one,
I dont know how you do it, but like Roger haske, I give you much respect for being high fruit eaters who have acheived great physiques. I have read somewhere that it does tkae you to "lose all your old develeopment" from cooked foods, before you can gain it back on raw. The problem with me I guess, is I feel like I'm starving myself? I think it would have to take a whole mind body spirit commitment with tons of support for me to go 100%, wich at the moment, is why I am here

Star241
Again, I am where you are at right now. I know that eating raw foods keeps you in a healthy state, and I think you would do yourself better to eat an optimum ammount of calories for your daily needs, even if it involved some "non-raw" sources, then having calorie defeciets and keeping you low on energy/hungry all the time. (Unless your goal is to fast, that's another story)

Darkwoods,

All the guys that I know that are over 6 feet are naturally slim. And I've definately dated a few of those guys and found them totally attractive. I agree that you should never feel like you're starving. If you wanted to go 100% Raw the one thing I would keep in mind (and this has helped me go 100% and transition well) is that you can eat as much as you want, whenever you want, in any combination you want as long as it is raw. That's it! I wouldn't worry about all the other stuff for a few weeks - Yes, it's ok to eat 10 bananas...you're are 6'2 and almost 200 lbs you should be eating alot!! Plus a bet your metabolism is high just like most tall guys. I know some of the guys here eat alot of avacodos, coconut fat and nuts to keep their weight up. Being 6'2 and 160 lbs may be too skinny...it'd help if we had a picture. But hey, I totally understand the need to feed self esteem. I admire your courage to share your troubles and I think Fruitarian One and alot of other guys on the boards here will be happy to help you meet your realistic goals and be good examples for you.

Jen

Jen Rose

"You must first unlearn the lies, and then you will have room for the truth"

Hey Darkwoods...just be who you are....I'm a sports man and always have been...and there's nothing wrong with wanting to be a big dude or whatever you wanna be...

I don't wanna be a skinny guy either...and there's nothing wrong in that....

Just do what makes you happy and let your body guide you to what you need...make sure you stay active buddy!!!

I think it may be posible to do all u want on raw and have all the endurance along with it, but not on normal raw, it'd have to be super dense nutrient food grown on the right mineral balenced soil. and such exists only in isolated cases. when it can be found it tastes so great u'd not want anything else. the kind of food this talks about [www.westonaprice.org]
Now for my experience, I'm 40, don't consider myself an athlete, but i think it wouldn't take much to get there if i tried. I've been a vegetarian all my life and just working on the raw idea as i get our own veggie production going. for 20 yrs I've worked in the woods logging and sawmilling. I'm 6'2" and 180 and can pick up more weight than my back can handle, I have to be careful, several times I've had to visit the chyropractor after moving big logs. I find My brother and I have a good bit more endurance than the average outdoors person, we can take off hiking up a mountain as we do every day anyway and when someone is with us they cant begin to keep up. And I don't think we're all that good, I'm amazed at the lack of endurance of some people that i would think should have more.
I belive I'd recommend vegetarian, with eggs and milk both from healthy sourses, (the modern factory farms arn't healthy sourses)
but only go maybe 50% raw and the rest in whole grains, beans, legumes, etc. corn is a real energy sourse, sometimes we'll just boil whole feed corn, (as long as it looks clean and free of crud, may be better to find milling grade corn) with some salt and flavoring it's good. (besides it's about as cheap a food as can be imagined) and move into higher % raw later on to increase endurance benefits if desired. The horse is one of the greatest athletes there is and they eat just salad and whole grains.

Hi Darkwoods,

Well, I was going to jokingly ask just how many times you performed this feat of breaking windshields, and who's windshields were they? Or maybe ask whether any other raw folks find that to be a feat they can now perform since going raw.

However, I don't know you, so you might not think it very funny, and it's not my intent to offend. I also wonder, too,about your emotional issues and how they may be more a part of this than it appears on the surface. I apologize if I'm delving into unwelcomed territory, but i'm going to risk it because, after all, you did post quite a bit of personal information.

You mentioned problems with depression, as well as several fairly extreme fluctuations in weight. Even on a S.A.D., one doesn't gain weight unless they overeat and underexercise. The latter certainly doesn't seem true in your case, so with the depression and the overeating and the kicking-in of windshields, I'm just wondering whether it might be better to consider looking deeper than diet and bodybuilding for the answers you seek.

I do know that aspects of the SAD, like sugar, can cause some folks with slight chemical imbalances to have worse imbalances, so I'm not discounting the effects diet can have. But, all of us, I think, at one time or other in our lives, tend not to see the forest for the trees. Or we worry about the way our partner squeezes the toothpaste tube when the real problem is that we've lost respect for our partner.
Well, i could go on and on with examples but you probably get the point.
I just thought I'd suggest this as a possibility, not because I think I read you perfectly.

i'm starting to think that i have to agree with funky rob. outside of the fruitarian one, i have yet to see any raw foodist that has a physique that i find impressive. that's not to say that built raw foodist don't exist, i just haven't been exposed to them.

the main problem that i've had in the past is being able to eat enough raw calories without overloading on fat and/or bananas. i can easily eat 25 to 30 bananas in a day but i've found that i spend all of my time eating bananas at the expense of eating a wide variety of food.

i don't know what your goals are, but when you look at vegans like mike mahler or mac danzig you can see it's definitely possible to be strong on an animal-free diet.

personally, i'm not sure if i want to try to build strength/mass on a high raw diet (90%+) or if i want to eat only about 50% raw and the rest be cooked vegan food.

raw milk, and nuts are great sources of protein and fat to help you bulk up and gain/maintain weight. i start to get grossed out when i eat too much fruit. green smoothies are great for adding balance to your diet. you can gain weight on an all raw diet, you just have to find the right foods.

Hi Darkwood,

I'd love to go 100% raw after trying it for 1 week this year, I looked so young, but the only thing is that when you're busy living in a city studying, you have to think on your feet when it comes to raw.

Nuts give me cold sores. I get rid of those with fish oil, chicken or evening primose oil..I don't tend to eat loads of carbs because it feeds the candida! Animal protein keeps my blood sugar stable...

And I still want to put on weight!! I thoroughly understand you...Wanting to look fit for your height and fill out your clothes, yet eat healthy.

Goat's milk, kefir, avocadoes, bananas, and lots of dense raw food help gain weight. but I guess the main thing is balance and variety in what you eat.

Hence I try to make sure there is always 10 different types of veg, 10 different types of fruit and 7-10 different types of sprouts eg, sunflower, mung, lentil, rye, chickpea (garbunzo) adzuki, buckwheat, puy lentil (growing in the kitchen.

I've just this week started adding flaxseed oil to my fruit smoothies in the morning before and after going to the gym.

I guess the only way to be kinda raw and look fit is to get a dehydrator and make things like essiene bread, cookies, etc like illustrated in the RAW UNCOOK BOOK by Juliano.

This has some great ideas and is filled with photos of marvellous raw, but filling dishes.

But then again, who want to have a life revolving round food...with out living it?? Still gotta have my music, singing, reading and writing, etc...

But then it's all about balance.......

Star