I'm finding different definitions for Vegans. I converted to raw 3 days ago. I've decided to give up all meat. If I eat raw cheese, does that violate the rules for being a Vegan?

Molli Wrote:
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> I'm finding different definitions for Vegans. I
> converted to raw 3 days ago. I've decided to give
> up all meat. If I eat raw cheese, does that
> violate the rules for being a Vegan?


yes, by anyone's definition. Vegan means no animal products, eaten or consumed. Cheese is from a cow. It's a dairy product. So, strictly speaking it's not vegan. Is it healthy? That's a different question (but the answer is still no, cheese is full of saturated fat,even partially skim varieties, not to mention the antibiotics, and pesticide residues.) That said, being labeled "vegan" is less important than eating a healthy plant based diet. Folks around this forum have divergent ideas of what that means. I'll fight that battle for another day. Except to say that generally, vegan means a diet inclusive of whole fruits (but not 30 bananas!!! ), vegetables (esp cruciferous raw and conservatively cooked), limited amounts of nuts and seeds, and optional beans and grains (sprouted).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 09:16PM by pborst.

No, veganism including non-dietary choices as well, such as clothing (no wool, silk, leather, etc.) and personal-care items not tested on animals and no animal ingredients. You also would not eat animal products of any kind, including no honey.

Don't mind the negative comments; they're uncalled for and don't assist in answering your question. (Being compassionate towards other beings I'd say is "more important" than worrying about a pimple, for example.)

Raw cheese can be vegan. Depends on what you make it with.

And everyone's diet is different. If it's plant-based, it's considered vegan. If you want 30 bananas a day, have them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 10:01PM by Utopian Life.

Utopian Life Wrote:
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> No, veganism including non-dietary choices as
> well, such as clothing (no wool, silk, leather,
> etc.) and personal-care items not tested on
> animals and no animal ingredients. You also would
> not eat animal products of any kind, including no
> honey.
>
> Don't mind the negative comments; they're uncalled
> for and don't assist in answering your question.
> (Being compassionate towards other beings I'd say
> is "more important" than worrying about a pimple,
> for example.)
>
> Raw cheese can be vegan. Depends on what you make
> it with.
>
> And everyone's diet is different. If it's
> plant-based, it's considered vegan. If you want
> 30 bananas a day, have them.

Abraham Lincoln once asked "If I called a dog's tail, a leg, how many legs would a dog have? And he heard "5". And Lincoln responded no, "Calling a dog's tail a leg, doesn't make it a leg" Calling something not made from cheese doesn't make it cheese and even if it's cheese doesn't make it healthy since by any definition it's processed. Soy "cheese" or soy "burgers". Yeah, technically their vegan. But they will drive your IGF (a marker for cancer) sky high.

As for the 30 bananas per day, your call. As I've said heretofore, proceed at your own risk.

Paul

If you look it up in the dictionary, "cheese" is defined as any cheese-like substance. Believe it or not, Paul, I know what I"m talking about. Raw cheese isn't made from soy obviously, and I never said it was healthy, anyway, regardless of what it's made of. THe OP didn't ask what was healthy; they asked what was vegan.

Quit arguing with all of my posts. You're sidetracking this thread for no reason. PM me if you want to argue with someone, don't involve this OP who just wants an answer.


--
Here is another answer to the question:
T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.[

Utopian Life Wrote:
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> If you look it up in the dictionary, "cheese" is
> defined as any cheese-like substance. Believe it
> or not, Paul, I know what I"m talking about. Raw
> cheese isn't made from soy obviously, and I never
> said it was healthy, anyway, regardless of what
> it's made of. THe OP didn't ask what was healthy;
> they asked what was vegan.
>
> Quit arguing with all of my posts. You're
> sidetracking this thread for no reason. PM me if
> you want to argue with someone, don't involve this
> OP who just wants an answer.
>
>
> --
> Here is another answer to the question:
> T]he word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way
> of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is
> possible and practical — all forms of exploitation
> of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or
> any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the
> development and use of animal-free alternatives
> for the benefit of humans, animals and the
> environment. In dietary terms it denotes the
> practice of dispensing with all products derived
> wholly or partly from animals.[


"Quit arguing with all of my posts" Hmmm. Well, let's see. In response to the OP, I responded first, I believe, and you took issue, which I think you will agree means you are arguing with my posts and not the otherway around. On the substance, we agree that raw "cheese" isn't vegan notwithstanding your obfuscation of the issue. and moreover, it's not healthy. So, pot meet kettle. You are attempting to accuse me of your own failings. So be it.

The first thing that happened in this thread was you made negative comments about veganism and limited it to diet. So yes, when an incorrect answer is given to a question, I will correct it. This is a vegan board, FYI. Most of us will know what the real definition is. It doesn't have to be me. So I address the OP's question and then you addressed something else that wasn't even relevant.

And I don't agree with you that raw cheese isn't vegan; raw cheese can be vegan depending on what it's made with. If someone uses raw cashews, lemon juice, red bell pepper, and water, it's vegan. The OP didn't ask what was healthy.

Utopian Life Wrote:
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> The first thing that happened in this thread was
> you made negative comments about veganism and
> limited it to diet. So yes, when an incorrect
> answer is given to a question, I will correct it.
> This is a vegan board, FYI. Most of us will know
> what the real definition is. It doesn't have to
> be me. So I address the OP's question and then
> you addressed something else that wasn't even
> relevant.
>
> And I don't agree with you that raw cheese isn't
> vegan; raw cheese can be vegan depending on what
> it's made with. If someone uses raw cashews,
> lemon juice, red bell pepper, and water, it's
> vegan. The OP didn't ask what was healthy.

No. This first thing I did was give a plain english definition of vegan "Vegan means no animal products, eaten or consumed" consumed means purchased, bought,worn,etc. I was playing it straight, not looking to pick a fight with you. You brought that on without any assistance from me.

With respect of fake foods, soy cheese,etc. McDougall has already established in his presenations that they spike IGF. And that's a marker for cancer. Again, proceed at your own risk. Just don't get too full of yourself. You picked this fight, not me.

? Fake foods? Who knew cashews were fake, a figment of our imagination! THanks so much for telling us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Utopian Life Wrote:
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> ? Fake foods? Who knew cashews were fake, a
> figment of our imagination! THanks so much for
> telling us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fake foods are McDougall's term for vegan foods made to look "real". I'm not making it up and vegan is just a label that doesn't necessarily mean healthy. Cashews? They are nuts right? Never called them fake.

Sent you a PM, obviously you want to continue to make more heat than light since you haven't contributed anything on this thread worth reading except personal attacks. I'm headed home. I have a family and a life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 10:53PM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ? Fake foods? Who knew cashews were fake, a
> > figment of our imagination! THanks so much for
> > telling us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Fake foods are McDougall's term for vegan foods
> made to look "real". I'm not making it up and
> vegan is just a label that doesn't necessarily
> mean healthy. Cashews? They are nuts right?
> Never called them fake.
>
> Sent you a PM, obviously you want to continue to
> make more heat than light since you haven't
> contributed anything on this thread worth reading
> except personal attacks. I'm headed home. I have
> a family and a life.


Tried to send you an PM before heading out to make peace. Your PM box is full. My terms are pretty simple. You stop attacking me. I stop responding and we move on. Agree?

I didn't realize you had sent me one until you stated it in this thread. I don't feel I've attacked you. But you can respond via PM now. THanks.

Utopian Life Wrote:
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> I didn't realize you had sent me one until you
> stated it in this thread. I don't feel I've
> attacked you. But you can respond via PM now.
> THanks.


I just read your earliest reply. I would very much welcome a chance to compare notes and work collaboratively with you,instead of fighting. Neither of us want that. Peace??

Peace. And for the record for people reading, to reiterate what I wrote, I don't think posting and disagreeing on a post is a personal attack. I work to not spread misinformation about veganism and about low-fat, high-fruit raw. It's important to me that the generalizations and misinformation stop. That's why I disagree with something that I see as inaccurate, not to personally attack anyone. It could be anybody who posted what you did, and I would have disagreed.

PEACE out.

Utopian Life Wrote:
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> Peace. And for the record for people reading, to
> reiterate what I wrote, I don't think posting and
> disagreeing on a post is a personal attack. I
> work to not spread misinformation about veganism
> and about low-fat, high-fruit raw. It's important
> to me that the generalizations and misinformation
> stop. That's why I disagree with something that I
> see as inaccurate, not to personally attack
> anyone. It could be anybody who posted what you
> did, and I would have disagreed.
>
> PEACE out.

I don't think you are being straight with yourself or me or them if you think this wasn't personal. That said, I'm glad you want to move on. So, do I. And I will do so. Good night.

Paul

unfreaking believable man. take it to private message you guys.



if you're confused about veganism you can look it up.

here you go.

[www.vegetus.org]

Vegan means no animal based foods, and typically no animal based anything else. Cheese is always made from the milk of a lactating animal. A modifier, such as "soy" placed before "cheese" indicates it as being a cheese-like substance but not culinarily cheese. People who consume secondary animal-based products, such as dairy and eggs, are vegetarians. People who eat fish are pescatarians, but not actually vegetarians. The definitions can make one's head swim, so don't worry about them. Do what you feel is best for you and we shall try not to call you out : )

coco Wrote:
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> unfreaking believable man. take it to private
> message you guys.
> if you're confused about veganism you can look it
> up.
> here you go.
> [www.vegetus.org]

Well, let's see, Utopian Life and I did take it to PMs and made peace, and you look like you trying to pick another fight. Think I will let this one go. And no thanks, I knew what vegan meant on my first response without any help from you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2009 01:08AM by pborst.

dude, take a chill pill. it was a bit frustruating wading through your long arguement looking for some input about the actual topic, i didn't read all 14 of those posts. who would?

anyhow, Tamukha, nice answer. pescatarians, head swim, ha!

coco Wrote:
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> dude, take a chill pill. it was a bit frustruating
> wading through your long arguement looking for
> some input about the actual topic, i didn't read
> all 14 of those posts. who would?

Thanks coco, when I need your advice, rest assured I will ask for it. In case you didn't get the just of my response before, we had already done what you had suggested, again without any help from you. Kind of like now, I'm relaxed. Hope you are too. Good night.

if its got a face or a pulse its probably not vegan

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Paul,

I'm starting to see a pattern with your posts in this thread and the banana thread I closed recently. Its seems when someone disagrees with you, your next response is an argument. This is not a debate forum.

Answer people's questions if you have some answers, or ask some questions of your own if you are in need of raw food support, but do not argue and debate.

In the past, I've let go of debaters. If you find you need to defend yourself here, perhaps this is a sign (to yourself) that you are a debater.

Bryan Wrote:
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> Paul,
>
> I'm starting to see a pattern with your posts in
> this thread and the banana thread I closed
> recently. Its seems when someone disagrees with
> you, your next response is an argument. This is
> not a debate forum.
>
> Answer people's questions if you have some
> answers, or ask some questions of your own if you
> are in need of raw food support, but do not argue
> and debate.
>
> In the past, I've let go of debaters. If you find
> you need to defend yourself here, perhaps this is
> a sign (to yourself) that you are a debater.


I take that a sign you are threatening to ban me. If you feel the need, please do so. You do seem somewhat selective in how you assign responsibility when more than one poster has a disagreement particularly when others initiate the attacks. Your prerogative if you find it convenient. I prefer to discuss when I can. I defend myself when I'm attacked, not otherwise.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2009 03:06AM by pborst.

Thanks much for the definitions. I really appreciate it!

I think debate can be quite healthy and enlightening if done right.
Anyways on the subject of cheese. It could be considered a vernacular term only applying to dairy...and I'm not even gonna touch soy cheese....but there are cheeses made by fermenting nuts and seeds......sometimes aged for months just like dairy cheese. In fact rainbow grocery in sf sells it. Its raw. Its fermented. And even fine connoisseurs of cheese agree it tastes like the more well known dairy versions. Its produced the same way...its just made with nuts and acidophilus instead of milk and rennet.
So I believe it to be cheese...and quite vegan!!!