Dang I missed the edit window. i wanted to add a couple more things. Juicing fruit is also not good advice for diabetics or anyone looking to beat candida.

Following the glucose spike, due to more insulin having been used, blood sugar dips much lower than it would have (this is called hypoglycemia). Hyper- and hypoglycemia are less than desirable conditions.


(Let me assure people that this scary talk of fruit and blood sugar is not cause for concern if it is consumed with its fiber. The Glycemic Load of most fruit is actually much lower than that of most cooked starches. Glycemic Load being a much more meaningful scale than Glycemic Index.)

rawpreston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fruit Faery,
> The opinion of juicing fruit isn't like me saying
> I like apples and you like pears. There are very
> real potential health dangers to excessive glucose
> spikes that people should be aware of. Especially
> those who may be obese, or those coming off of a
> higher-fat plan. This thread is about people
> interested in transitioning to 80/10/10, or so I
> thought, and juicing fruit is really questionable
> advice for them.
>
> To clarify a little: It's a known fact that
> eating a fruit with its fiber slows sugar
> absorption into the blood. Thus juice, with 0
> fiber, hits the blood stream quickly, causing the
> pancreas and adrenals to have to work extra hard
> to take care of this sudden rush. Excessive blood
> sugar is bad for many other reasons. It's called
> hyperglycemia, look it up on wikipedia.


So ....
In simple, easy steps
To clarify further....
bearing the above in mind, it would logically follow that......
Eating some fruit prior to consuming fruit juice would slow down sugar absorption into the blood?
Does this tidy things up for you?


My original post, which you decided to quote and respond to stated...
'I eat and juice fruit.
I eat and juice veggies.
I eat a large salad most evenings'.

I have never suggested that drinking fruit juice on an empty stomach
is a good idea. Where did that come from?
It came from YOU!
ffx

The Fruit Faery Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So ....
> In simple, easy steps
> To clarify further....
> bearing the above in mind, it would logically
> follow that......
> Eating some fruit prior to consuming fruit juice
> would slow down sugar absorption into the blood?
> Does this tidy things up for you?

Also
In simple steps
for you to understand
Whole fruit + fruit juice
=
higher blood sugar
than
whole fruit + whole fruit
because
half of it
still has 0 fiber.

Imagine putting a chunk of fruit in some koolaid, do you really think that fruit is gonna prevent the koolaid from spiking your blood sugar?

I'm sick of arguing about it with you. Go nuts with it!

rawpreston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Fruit Faery Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > So ....
> > In simple, easy steps
> > To clarify further....
> > bearing the above in mind, it would logically
> > follow that......
> > Eating some fruit prior to consuming fruit
> juice
> > would slow down sugar absorption into the
> blood?
> > Does this tidy things up for you?
>
> Also
> In simple steps
> for you to understand
> Whole fruit + fruit juice
> =
> higher blood sugar
> than
> whole fruit + whole fruit
> because
> half of it
> still has 0 fiber.
>
> Imagine putting a chunk of fruit in some koolaid,
> do you really think that fruit is gonna prevent
> the koolaid from spiking your blood sugar?
>
> I'm sick of arguing about it with you. Go nuts
> with it!

>


I am not familiar with 'Koolaid'
I can therefore not relate to your example.
I have no argument or otherwise with you.
ffx

rawpreston Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sgc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying 811 and
> fruits
> > are bad. I'm just saying if you're not active,
> eat
> > less fruits and more greens, simply because you
> > don't need the energy from fruits.
>
> That doesn't really work though, since a pound of
> greens only has 100 calories. That doesn't leave
> much variability. No one's eating 5 lbs of
> greens. And vegetables are even worse in terms of
> caloric density. The only trade-off with fruit is
> either more fat, or cooked carbs.
>
>
> > And if you feel
> > like you want the fruits, quit your desk and
> get
> > you some physical activity and fresh air.
>
> That's a bit ridiculous. You repeatedly said how
> you're not against fruit, but you still perpetuate
> a fruit phobia imo. How about they keep their day
> job, eat the fruit, and start exercising once in a
> while? Exercise is necessary for EVERYONE to be
> healthy to old age, i don't care what their name
> is. I know people don't like to hear it.


Rawpreston, I think you read me wrong, or read with your idea in the head, and not looking into what I read truly.
To be more specific: you can't live long term 811, or fruit base diet if you have a sedentary life. And you can't live healthy whatever you eat if you don't keep a good activity level.
Health is not just what you eat. It's what you do and think first of all. You food is a beam or foundation to support your spiritual and physical structure. But no matter the foundation if the structure is weak: it will fall.
Like I said, I eat 811 style (even tough I never read the book). But I would not advocate it to everybody. Maybe because I've been experiencing with it for about 5 years.

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Nice Straw House!! I'd be worried about it getting
>
> wet.
> Here's a picture of a Footbridge I built in 2003
> using
> Quadrilaterals. There was a lot of Math involved
> in cutting
> all the angles......WY
>
> [img.photobucket.com]
> ogi/IMG_0024.jpg

Thanks. We are in the process of plastering it, and so far, no rain yet.
Nice bridge. We had a couple struggle with angles for a tilted terrace... But carpentry is out of subject...

Raw Fruit Festival
[www.raw-fruit-festival.net]
Health, Fitness and Fasting Retreats in Spain
[www.fit-in-nature.net]

I'm not speaking to anyone in particular....this whole
Topic just gets me 'Fired-up'. For those of you who are
following 80/10/10...is it time to wake-up? I mean.....so much Fruit!! I understand that
some of you eat 15 to 25 Bananas a day. Compare that....Fruit Sugar....which feeds cancer
cells....with....Liquid Chlorophyll....which kills
E.coli (deadly bacteria) throughout the Body (especially the Colon). There's
no comparison. Cut down on the Fruit, and go more Green. If you can't cut
down on the Fruit, at least eat Greens after the meal, or take Chlorella
with the meal.....WY
P.S. The stronger the Green, the Better.
P.P.S. Be gentle. I'm just trying to help.

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not speaking to anyone in particular....this
> whole
> Topic just gets me 'Fired-up'. For those of you
> who are
> following 80/10/10...is it time to wake-up? I
> mean.....so much Fruit!! I understand that
> some of you eat 15 to 25 Bananas a day. Compare
> that....Fruit Sugar....which feeds cancer
> cells....with....Liquid Chlorophyll....which kills
>
> E.coli (deadly bacteria) throughout the Body
> (especially the Colon). There's
> no comparison. Cut down on the Fruit, and go more
> Green. If you can't cut
> down on the Fruit, at least eat Greens after the
> meal, or take Chlorella
> with the meal.....WY
> P.S. The stronger the Green, the Better.
> P.P.S. Be gentle. I'm just trying to help.


WY you have been rumbled!

Its no good you sitting grinning on the fence like Brer rabbit, waiting for the fruit to fly!!!!

ffx!

Haha, this is a good food fight! I suspect 20 years from now, if this board is still here (probably will be) people will still be arguing over low- v. high-glycemic raw diet. My own experience is that most of us need greens with fruit. I personally can't eat 15-25 bananas in a day-- ugh! I do know, however, that people who have been raw long enough to really purify their system often can subsist on fruit, but I suspect they eat VERY little. When you get to a certain point you do not want to be consuming large volumes of any kind of food.

And just to throw a little controversy into the debate: I've also heard of people overcoming diabetes by fasting on orange juice. I know that both Jingee and the woman who wrote that book 'Perfect Body' have fasted diabetics on orange juice with favorable results.

The big question is this: we know that sugar (and salt, for that matter, according to Charlotte Gerson) contribute significantly to the growth of cancer cells. But does 'sugar' include natural fruit sugars? Surely natural salts, such as those in celery, aren't harmful in the same way that table salt is.

I can't see something that grows in such abundance-- fruit, alone, and by itself, in its natural state-- being carcinogenic. Fruit, after all, is not an exotic herb, like lobelia or a poisonous plant like poison ivy. Its many varieites grow prolifically all over the world in temperate and tropical zones. So it just doesn't make sense that it's bad for you and should be avoided. I believe it's when we have fruits with cooked foods, or fruits with tons of fats, or some other unwholesome combination... yes, then the combination might create a lot of imbalance in the body.

WY,

I preface this by saying I eat a couple of pounds of greens daily: If you consume a lot of fruit, which is mostly alkalizing, it provides you with tons of ready energy. This prompts you to move around a lot, which further alkalizes you through oxygenation of the bloodstream. Is it not then possible that the hypothesized cancer-abetting effects of large amounts of glucose from fructose suddenly entering the bloodstream could thereby be mitigated? Well, that's what I suppose, anyhow : )

kwan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Haha, this is a good food fight! I suspect 20
> years from now, if this board is still here
> (probably will be) people will still be arguing
> over low- v. high-glycemic raw diet. My own
> experience is that most of us need greens with
> fruit. I personally can't eat 15-25 bananas in a
> day-- ugh! I do know, however, that people who
> have been raw long enough to really purify their
> system often can subsist on fruit, but I suspect
> they eat VERY little. When you get to a certain
> point you do not want to be consuming large
> volumes of any kind of food.
>
> And just to throw a little controversy into the
> debate: I've also heard of people overcoming
> diabetes by fasting on orange juice. I know that
> both Jingee and the woman who wrote that book
> 'Perfect Body' have fasted diabetics on orange
> juice with favorable results.
>
> The big question is this: we know that sugar (and
> salt, for that matter, according to Charlotte
> Gerson) contribute significantly to the growth of
> cancer cells. But does 'sugar' include natural
> fruit sugars? Surely natural salts, such as those
> in celery, aren't harmful in the same way that
> table salt is.
>
> I can't see something that grows in such
> abundance-- fruit, alone, and by itself, in its
> natural state-- being carcinogenic. Fruit, after
> all, is not an exotic herb, like lobelia or a
> poisonous plant like poison ivy. Its many
> varieites grow prolifically all over the world in
> temperate and tropical zones. So it just doesn't
> make sense that it's bad for you and should be
> avoided. I believe it's when we have fruits with
> cooked foods, or fruits with tons of fats, or some
> other unwholesome combination... yes, then the
> combination might create a lot of imbalance in the
> body.


Hi Kwan
I have a friend who was overweight, diabetic (type 2),heavily medicated, sluggish and miserable.
She adopted a raw diet, followed by juice feasting and supervised water fasting.
She drank copious amounts of fruit juice during her monthly juice feasts.
She had many people advising her not to juice fruit because of 'spiking'
She continued to juice fruit as that was what her body was craving.

Her eyesight and sense of smell improved. Asthma and eczema disappeared.
Her answer to her 'advisers' was if juicing fruit was so detrimental to her health, how was it that her health was improving?

She has lost about 90lbs.
She is no longer diabetic.

I don't believe that natural fruit sugar or natural veggie salts can be placed in the same category as processed sugar and salts when consumed on a raw vegan diet.
If you start combining fruit sugar with cooked food or heavy fats then they may well cause similar problems to processed sugars.

My body lets me know immediately if i have consumed something inappropriate.
I haven't had that feeling when juicing fruit, in fact quite the opposite!
Greens are also very important to me.
Its all about balance and listening to what your body tells you.
The problem is that many of us have lost this basic instinct, so rely on others to compensate.

Let me just reiterate that Doug Graham's 80/10/10 is not a program without greens, it recommends a minimum of a pound or more per day. This equates to a large head of romaine, or one of those big tubs of Earthbound Farms.

And like I said before, greens are not a valid caloric trade-off with fruit, "eat less fruit and more greens" doesnt wash. Greens don't provide enough calories, no one's gonna eat 5lbs of greens every day and that's only 500 calories. A banana has 100. The only way to get enough calories if not consuming copious fruit and staying 100% raw is FAT.

Our body, every one of our cells, yes even cancer, feeds on sugar (glucose). We cannot starve cancer cells without simultaneously starving all other cells. In the absence of sugar, the body must break down fat or protein into glucose to provide these needed calories. These are both highly inefficient processes which create negative byproducts in the body.

No, fruit sugars are not the same as table sugar. Their uptake is slowed by fiber, and it's in large part fructose which does not affect blood sugar and I believe is converted to glucose by the liver.

80/10/10 isn't about "too much" fruit. It's about just enough fruit to provide us enough calories for the day. Which yes can sound like a lot. But there's really nothing to fear, as long as one is not also consuming copious amounts of fat.

Have I recommended the book yet? (yes even for people who think they already get it). You don't even have to pay, get it through a library. Can someone point me to a book that says 811 is bad and I should be getting 50%+ calories from fat (which is even higher than the average SAD) like many other raw fooders? I'd love to read this book. But until then I'll get my calories from fruit instead. I'd rather go back to cooked carbs than high fat.

sgc Wrote:

> Rawpreston, I think you read me wrong, or read
> with your idea in the head, and not looking into
> what I read truly.
> To be more specific: you can't live long term 811,
> or fruit base diet if you have a sedentary life.
> And you can't live healthy whatever you eat if you
> don't keep a good activity level.
> Health is not just what you eat. It's what you do
> and think first of all. You food is a beam or
> foundation to support your spiritual and physical
> structure. But no matter the foundation if the
> structure is weak: it will fall.
> Like I said, I eat 811 style (even tough I never
> read the book). But I would not advocate it to
> everybody. Maybe because I've been experiencing
> with it for about 5 years.

We mostly agree. We agree on the importance of physical activity, but you were basically recommending people "stay sedentary, 811's not for you" and "to succeed on 811 you must quit your desk job". I think there's some middle ground. I don't like this stereotype of 811 is only for athletes and no one else. That's like mandating that people first become highly active while on their high-fat low-energy plan, that is not an easy thing to do. Why not recommended people try the diet, revving them up with a little natural energy, leading them to actually want to start exercising?

I am very grateful for the response to my original post. I think that based on what I've heard, people may react differently to this diet. But I'm intrigued because of my personal preference for fruit, certainly over starches. Much thanks to the Board. I'm going to read and possibly try 80-10-10. Even if I don't, will limit fats (oils, nuts, and seeds). Much thanks to all!!

Kref

Fruit rocks!!!

I don't follow Dr Doug's 811 program per se but because I eat a very high fruit diet I naturally am in those percentages consistently.
I have great respect for Dr. Graham and his 80/10/10 diet and would recommend it to anyone.
It is my opinion that if health can logically be achieved in someone, the 80/10/10 diet is the vehicle to get you that health.

brian1cs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is my opinion that if health can logically be
> achieved in someone, the 80/10/10 diet is the
> vehicle to get you that health.
If Health has been lost, there are better ways to
restore it. The 80/10/10 would be a good way to maintain Health
with high energy. It doesn't suit me to consume massive amounts
of fruit, so 80/10/10 isn't for me. I believe we 'run' Best on
Chlorophyll rather than Fruit Sugar. Time will be the final judge.....WY