Hello!

I have been a vegan for 7 months. The main reason for my change was environmental. However, during this time, I have also developed interest in health, which I think, is also related to the environmental change eventually.

So I have read a few book.. Started of with "The pH Miracle", by Dr. Robert O Young (which I think is a complete sham), moved on to "Healthy at 100" by John Robbins, a book about sprouts whose name I fail to remember, and "The China Study", By Dr. Collin T Campbell.

Basically, both Robbins and Campbell showed the advantages of a vegan diet. I did however, found some holes in the theory.. Campbell claims that any fat is bad for you (including olive) and it had been shown to promote diseases.. But I didn't see in the references note researches which compared people who only ate cold pressed oils with ones who didn't eat any at all.. meaning the health result may just happened because of the type of oil..

And the same holes in science I find with the raw food diet.. Was there ever any study comparing raw foodists the a whole food vegan foodist? Rather than people who eat the average cooked diet (which is clearly bad for our health)?

I'll be happy to get some solid information about advantages in a COMPLETE raw food diet rather the raw and cooked whole food vegan diet.

Thank you,

Eran.

Eran,

Unfortunately, no, there has not been a controlled study comparing vegan to raw or any variation. All the evidence we have is anecdotal. Pretty consistent, but anecdotal.

There are many different ways to do raw. If there ever is a study done I would like to see it done with several different raw food lifestyles. I would be especially interested in seeing a study done on the 80-10-10 raw lifestyle as compared to the typical SAD lifestyle.

I agree, it would be eye opening to have such studies done and then you would have cold hard info to back yourself! To be able to say "Im a raw vegan for these reasons, I feel this way when RV and this is why its good for me" and hand them the info. That would be so nice, one day it will happen. Its just gotta, ya?

nomnomnomnom...!

See.. My situation is this. I live in Cambodia for the moment and going raw would be really complicated.. I believe that food which is not violently cooked (steamed, mostly, and some steam fried), indeed loses some of it's nutrients, but is still very good to maintain health.

Here, it would be impractical to avoid rice really.. So I buy brown rice, I even sprout it, and then, yes, I cook it (Seen some recipes here which use raw rice, though I can't see myself enjoying a meal like that). Many time I would make a raw "sauce" to it. Sometimes not.

Wouldn't you say, that a person who consumes a large amount of fresh veg, fruit and sprouts, and cooked whole grains and veg, would probably be quite healthy?

I think both Dr. Campbell's "The China Study" and John Robbins's "Healthy at 100" would support that claim..

Another thing.. Being a vegan, I'm already quite socially limited. But since my believe in the cause is sound, there is no second thought. Being completely raw however, might be a bit harder, I think that is, to justify (to myself) when I refuse dishes at friends' dinners.

I'll be happy to see some reactions on this.

Cheers.

At this point you believe steamed and steam-fried food loses some of it's nutrients, but is still very good to maintain health and you find it impractical to avoid cooking/eating rice in Cambodia. While your food choices sound "quite healthy" for a vegan diet, at some point you may want to try a completely raw vegan diet and compare for yourself. It is smart of you to read and study (I did that too before going raw), but the experience of eating a completely raw diet was what really convinced me.

If it's hard to justify to yourself, it may not be right for you now.

When/If you decide to go completely raw vegan, brainstorm LOTS of different ways to handle dinner invitations, so you can be prepared.
Examples:
Let them know beforehand that you would love to spend time together over a meal, but need to bring your own food.
Say that you have to control your diet (strictly) for health reasons.
Laugh and say you have a wacky raw diet and will bring a salad.
Invite them first and have a raw feast.
Feed the dog under the table!
Claim to be on a detox fast. Etc...

Sometimes role-playing an awkward situation with a trusted friend can help me get past nervousness or apprehension. Maybe that would help you, if wondering how to handle social situations is what's holding you back.

However, it sounds like you don't think it's necessary or right for you at this point. That's fine too. We all need to think and trust our best judgement. That's the wisest course to take.


My favorite raw vegan

eran,

Eh, rice, that's no big deal, IMO. But in Cambodia, can you not find lots of ripe sweet fruit easily? I'd try to eat as much of that as possible, by itself earlier in the day, and then limit cooked rice and whatnot to later in the day, if socializing permits that.

My point is though, that I can't find any sound reason to switch to 100% raw. As I stated, I agree that food loses part of its nutrients cooked, but it still has many others.

What I am basically saying is, that even if some foods lose a bit of their value, there is no reason to believe that while eating a large portion of the diet raw, with intact nutrient, one can't enjoy cooked healthy food as well.

Besides, cooked tomatoes are known to absorb iron when cooked on an iron skillet, so some nutrients can actually increase, but that's not really the point.

The point is that we don't know. What we do know, according to several studies, is that the healthiest societies in the world maintained their amazing vitality by a plant based whole food diet, 95% vegan (This info is from "Healthy at 100" by John Robbins" and "The China study" by Dr. Collin T Campbell).

Even though some foods lose nutrients, there is a much wider variety of food to be eaten if we eat a partially cooked diet (beans like kidney for example, or fresh homemade tofu).

Now, even though I think that 95% vegan is good enough, I chose to be 100% because I think eating animal products these days is simply unsustainable, and basically morally wrong (given that we can posses vibrant health without it, obviously. If that were not true, I would take the last statement back).

But a 100% raw? I'm trying to see if there is any sound reason to go through this change, which in a place like I'm at (Cambodia), is quite a mission. I would prefer to go through a change like that knowing I'm doing the right thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2009 07:24AM by eran.

I totaly take on board that you at this point do not see the need to be totally raw. However I am green with envy at all that amazing fruit on your doorstep - it would revolutionise my life - try being raw in deepest darkest Devon (south West England) - the land of cabbage and swede and rain and if you are lucky soft furry apples lol.

I think IF you wanted to be 100% raw then you are in one of the best places to do it. I realise I am not addressing your issues of social dining - but most of my family and friends just accept that I am 'weird' now.

I think that if you are happy with your food choices then there is no need to change them - you might find yourself drifting toward 100% raw in a couple of years.

No, there are no longitudinal studies comparing 100% raw people with non-raw,or high raw.

There are many logical reasons to be 100% raw rather than 95%. And there are certainly no logical health reasons to include a little cooked food in the diet, BUT if sticking with a little cooked food helps, eg socially, motivationally, whatever, to keep one 95% raw, then that could be a very good argument for doing so!

For some arguments for 100% raw, see my website at www.rawforlife.co.uk, and blog articles at debbietookrawforlife.co.uk - in particular my articles in Archives which explain why no foods are better cooked than raw (I think you'll find some information there you weren't aware of), and why 'healthy' cooked food is a contradiction in terms.

BUT BUT BUT...

having said that, high raw is still a brilliant diet.

Yes, those who are high raw are 'quite healthy', compared with the average. I'd go so far as to say that most of them would be 'extremely healthy' compared with the average.

I was 'high raw' in my first year of raw, and that was great for me at the time. I saw health improve, and I think if I'd pushed myself beyond the point I wanted to go at that time, I might have 'rebelled'!

And there are lots of factors other than food that affect our health.

For example, an 80% raw person who gets lots of exercise, fresh hair, sunshine, rest/relaxation, lay, has a sense of direction, motivation and a positive attitude may well be much healthier than a 100% raw person who never gets off the computer, is constantly stressed by contradictions in their life, and feels miserable most of the time!

So...we each need to decide exactly how far we're going to go re the various things that can affect our health. I'm 100% raw because I find that an easy thing to be (now), therefore it suits me to show a clean pair of heels on 'the food thing'. But in other areas I'm not so good!

I agree with Debbie. But also I cannot think of anything scientific data could induce me to do if I were not already inclined by knowledge, experience, or good sense to do it, so . . . .

This article, [www.pccnaturalmarkets.com] , has references linked to studies that may interest you, eran. The 2005 Geissen University study clinically looks at raw foodists in the 70 to 100% range and has extensive clickable references, and follows another Geissen raw food study of a few years earlier. The Washington University study finds bone mass in strict raw vegans light but healthy, as I recall, and the lead researcher, Luigi Fontana, seems to approach his raw vegan studies with an open mind.

Edit: A strict whole food raw/cooked diet has never been studied as far as I now, so the above info only addresses part of your question.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2009 04:25PM by loeve.

Eran, here's a better link to the 2005 Geissen, Germany study, full text --

[jn.nutrition.org]

Here is the most important raw foods study I know of:

First, eat cooked vegan for 30-60 days, keeping a diary of how it works out for you. Record everything, energy levels, calories taken in, moods, mental clarity, anything you want to know about later. Even go in and have some medical tests done if that would help. (before/after)

Then, do the same thing on a raw diet (for the same period of time). If you find there is no difference for you personally, then you have your answer. If you find a difference, then you also have your answer.

I have an uncle who prepares himself a super strong cup of coffee every night before he goes to bed. Everyone knows that coffee has caffeine, and he should have all sorts of trouble sleeping, but the truth is, unless he has his cup of coffee, he just can't sleep. No matter how many studies are done on the effects of caffeine, this is what works for him.

I suggest you do the same (find what works best for you) - and after you have done your own research, please post your conclusions, we would love to hear how that worked out for you. And keep in mind, even people who are fully raw change things around sometimes. For example, many people find over time that they transition to a lower fat intake, or are more drawn to mono eating. I don't think anything is ever written in stone.

Good luck!

Thank you all for all the responses. I will read each and every article you've submitted, and get back to you on the subject

I think there is a critical threshold where, once most of the mind-numbing toxic elements of the SAD diet are removed, one can reestablish intuitive communication with the body. The body guides...

At first I was high raw, non-organic. I saw no sound reason to buy organic at $5/box of strawberries, when I could take that money and eat 5 cartons of conventional strawberries.

Then I had a breakthrough one night, maybe about 6 months into raw. I FELT the difference in organic, for the first time. So I went organic... body made some more changes.

My raw % gradually increased, I hovered around 90% for another year or so. If I tried to go to 100%, I would crash and pendulum all over the place. I had to stay at 90%. In the winter, steamed potatoes were right for me. The following summer, steamed kale and broccoli were right for me.

Now, I am at a point, where I have been 100% (not 99.9%, 100%!) for 8 weeks. No cravings, no nothing, my head is clear and I feel calm. It's been about two years since I've started introducing raw foods to my diet.

I still eat way too much fat. >8) I have always said I wanted to be fruitarian... it resonates with my heart... so we will see! I have found, that when you are finally ready, things just happen, slide into place, without the conscious mind even realizing.

In the beginning, I always WANTED to be 100%, but it was a mental thing. I think if the driving basis for your dietary goal is mental, it may not be the best thing for yourself as a whole person. You may need to be patient and loving with yourself and move in steps. If you gently move toward your goal when the body intuitively TELLS you it is ready, eventually your mental goals become feelings, and eventually those feelings become a state of being, because you wouldn't want to have it any other way. Throughout that process of feeling, you learn all about yourself, through direct experience. Personal experience, learning from doing, is the best guide. There are no answers... there is only you!

I tend to think there is a major psychological influence on body "awareness". I think that once you believe a food is bad, you will start feeling bad when you eat it after a certain amount of time.

I was going through the process, where you fill like you need to go stricter and stricter towards the best, most natural diet. but looking at so many cases where patients reversed sever diseases by a mixed whole vegan diet (cooked and raw), I reckon it is the best diet.

even if a 100% percent raw were the ultimate diet physically, which I don't really believe, the complication and emotional stress of constantly avoiding so many different dishes, I think would also have a long time heavy health affects.

for those who are happy and completely comfortable with the pure hygienic diet, enjoy and be healthy. besides, they develop some great raw food dishes which I'd really want to try once I get back to a world with dehydrators and technology

thank you all for the responses!

may health and joy always be upon thee!

Quote

but looking at so many cases where patients reversed sever diseases by a mixed whole vegan diet (cooked and raw), I reckon it is the best diet.

I think the best diet is the one that you do naturally. When a person starts eating some fresh raw natural food the body recognizes it and wants more. If a person is listening to their body a natural progression will occur that leads them down the path to eating more foods that are simple fresh raw foods. At the same time the tastes will begin a subtle change. This process has happened for many raw food eaters and is very easy and natural. The raw food lifestyle should not be forced or difficult. It should happen in its own good time and at its own pace. Just relax and listen to your body as your coach.

I understand what you are saying. Since becoming a vegan even my taste changed. However, when I smell eggs, sometimes, it makes me wanna have some. I will not, because I believe that the pleasure of eating eggs, like any other factory farmed animal product, is not worth the amount of energy put into it, the amount of pollution it causes, and obviously the cruelty to the chickens (and male chicks...).

But, even if my body would drive me to eat more and more raw, when I'll see (or think of) baba ganush (not the raw version), I'll be happy and guilt-free about having some.

Just after turning vegan, I read the "pH Miracle" by Dr. O.Young. Now, I believe it's a complete fab, but back then, it made sense to me. I started following the diet, and my awareness grew greater and greater. I was really feeling as if not eating 'acidic' foods is helping me. So many days, I found myself eating salads all day and feeling great.. After a few weeks, I lost way too much weight, and as I got up from a lying position, I was seeing 'black'... But I was feeling 'good'! I believe I was feeling good because I truly believed that was the healthiest way. Our body and mind are more linked than we sometimes believe, and our objectivity in judging our energy levels etc. may be affected by various factors.

Saying that, after doing some reading in the subject, I simply don't think that a raw diet is the healthiest way to go, even though I am well aware that a fair portion of fresh raw fruit and veg are important to consume.

This is an interesting article about raw vs. non raw (both vegan whole) [www.bryannaclarkgrogan.com]

eran,

That's an interesting article, however, two quibbles:

Bryanna does not seem to distinguish between gourmet raw(high fat/high protein) and plain raw(raw whole fruits, veg, nuts, seeds). Her argument is not specific.

As I once again mention, I'm a trained cook, and we learned a lot of that "cooking releases phytochemicals" stuff when I was in school. The data bears revisiting in 20 or 30 years because it is, of course, incomplete--no one has ever conclusively proven that isolate nutrients are metabolized efficiently by humans over time. There is plenty of data that indicates synergistic assimilation is most efficient. For example, no lycopene study conclusively shows that Vitamin C lost from the tomato in cooking to extract lycopene might react synergistically with lycopene for optimum benefit were it intact.

We have not evolved to cook anything; cooking is a recent invention. Again, until someone does a ten-year-long rigorous study of 100% raw 80/10/10 ers using 50% raw fruit and vegetable/50% cooked low or high grain vegans as a control, we can only deduce what works best for our individual organisms.

Lastly, if after reading "The pH Miracle" you went gung-ho raw because it seemed sensible, and in so doing ate lots of salads, mightn't the blackness upon sitting up be attributed to insufficient calories, that is, insufficient variety in your raw diet of the time? Just wondering.

It was, you're entirely right. But in the process, I felt good! That is why I'm saying that someti,es the way we feel is dictated by how much we believe in our way, rather than actual body signals.

Even if the were conclusive proof that 100% raw is better for me, there is still the phsycological apect. I believe that being limited in such a way would cause (me) long term health issues..

It has also been proven that cellphones are bad for us.. Do I use cellphones much? No.. Do I use it at all? yes. I draw my lines, just in different places.