Hey everyone, just wanted to know what everyones thoughts were on b12 and raw vegan, vegan and so on and do you supplement with a sublingual or fortified food product?

cheers

Same as my thoughts for cooked vegan, cooked omni: take a sublingual methylcobalamin to be safe.

Agree with UL. Although I noticed today that the Garden of Life Vitamin Code raw multi for women has almost twice the B12 recommended for women; I assume that because it's synthesized from raw ingredients, it is as assimilable as sublingual(?)

it wont be as assimilable as sublingual but it "should" suffice if you have decent digestion.

ive heard of garden of life just never looked into it, will check it out.

I think if you are really worried about it....and are industrious....you should grow your own greens/veggies...and just not completely wipe all the dirt off. I imagine very few cows have problems with B-12 deficiency. Otherwise supplement.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

B12 in soil is a little "iffy", seems to me, if the plants are grown in manure, or if one of the B12 strains of bacteria happens to be present. The fellow that studied B12 in soil got his sample from his greenhouse soil, which is an atypical environment. Backyard soil varies in so many ways. Soil is interesting as a food for its minerals, some primates eat soil and "rotting forrest" which I guess is decomposing vegetation on the forrest floor. I follow the Vegan Society recommendation to supplement B12, and use a B-complex tablet.

It would seem the info on this vitamin is quite perplexing! Ha

I think that widepsread use of antibiotics and diets too high in fat(and or too low in carbs and green leaves) have contributed to the commonality of vitamin b12 deficiency among everyone, including vegans, vegetarians and meat eaters alike.

Heres some interesting info Ive found, keep in mind written by a hygeinist.

[www.roylretreat.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 03:29PM by WorkoutMan.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> B12 in soil is a little "iffy", seems to me, if
> the plants are grown in manure, or if one of the
> B12 strains of bacteria happens to be present.
> The fellow that studied B12 in soil got his sample
> from his greenhouse soil, which is an atypical
> environment. Backyard soil varies in so many
> ways. Soil is interesting as a food for its
> minerals, some primates eat soil and "rotting
> forrest" which I guess is decomposing vegetation
> on the forrest floor. I follow the Vegan Society
> recommendation to supplement B12, and use a
> B-complex tablet.


My best guess would be that primates subconciously eat "soil and rotting forrest" for the bacteria rather than the minerals. ie to improve intestinal flora

my questions are: if it's as much a problem amongst everyone - not just vegans - then how come I don't know of any omni eaters that are in the least bit concerned about it? and how come I don't know of any omni-eaters who have ever suffered with symptoms of deficiency? and yet it's one of the hottest topics on boards like these.

my other question (more like a ponderence really) is that if we take a mega-dose of 'anything' - surely our body - fluid and responsive organism that it is - would simply lower its rate of absorption, hence rendering us with a decreased ability to absorb said nutrient?

not that i'm against supplementing; it's just that these are the things that cross my mind when I think about it. Right before my head starts to hurt



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I'm not into panicky thinking. Things that I think are a concern....I make sure to incorporate. So: I think that those who are worried about b-12 should eat fresh produce from a wide variety of soils....or supplement.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Omnivores get B12 deficiencies all the time. Just because no one has talked to you about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. That's like going your whole life w/o seeing or hearing of a dog and then you come upon dog lovers and claim dogs don't exist because you never heard of them.

My understanding is that when omnivores are B12 deficient, they're usually somewhat advanced in age and have difficulty absorbing B12. An oral supplement won't help them if they can't absorb it. They have to take B12 intraveinously.

Frrom research I've read on the subject - and from my own experience, it seems that for a vegan, a B12 deficiency can occur because there isn't an adequate source in the diet. Cooked food vegans can obtain B12 by eating B12-enriched yeast and other B-12 enriched vegan products. But for raw vegans, there are no verified adequate natural sources of B12, and no B12-enriched foods that I'm aware of.

It's very possible that for omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans combined, most B12 deficiencies are caused by absorption problems - since there are more omnivores than vegans.

But for vegans alone, my understanding is that most B12 deficiencies are remedied by including more B12-enriched foods in the (cooked vegan) diet or by minute doses of B12 supplements - an indication that their deficiency was not caused by an absorption problem.

I personally don't buy the idea that people can obtain enough B12 by eating unwashed organic produce. I think it's possible that eating organically might help put off a deficiency; but ultimately, I don't think that's adequate.

My soil here is organic, virgin, and alluvial, from decomposed forest litter over lava. But it didn't prevent B12 deficiency, even with the additional use of animal manures. For many years, I didn't believe in the necessity to supplement. Now I do.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 08:59AM by suncloud.

good post suncloud.

personally i use b12 enriched yeast products and they have sufficied in keeping a good level up as per blood tests.

I don't supplement with B12. If I were to get sick with B12 related issues, I would have not problem taking the supplements. But before I took the B12 I would see if there was something in my lifestyle that was causing the symptoms other than not consuming B12 supplements.

B12 is certainly cheap enough that it isn't going to break anyone's pocketbook if they practice preventative supplementation even if they don't need to. But for myself, I am not into taking preventative supplementation for which I don't have personal evidence that I need this preventative measure.

Inadequate absorption is the main cause of B12 deficiency (according to Merck). But medications also play a part. As well as stress.

If a person needs B12, they ought to take it. But they also ought to look at what is potentially preventing B12 absorption from happening in their bodies. To ignore these issues is to have other more severe symptoms arise in the future.

inadequate absorbtion is mostly the case for b12 deficiency caused by lack of intrinsic factor.

But if your not replacing it, at some point you will suffer, your liver can hold reserves for a fair while though.

Prana - I concur!

suncloud Wrote:

>
> I personally don't buy the idea that people can
> obtain enough B12 by eating unwashed organic
> produce. I think it's possible that eating
> organically might help put off a deficiency; but
> ultimately, I don't think that's adequate.
>
> My soil here is organic, virgin, and alluvial,
> from decomposed forest litter over lava. But it
> didn't prevent B12 deficiency, even with the
> additional use of animal manures. For many years,
> I didn't believe in the necessity to supplement.
> Now I do.

I suspect you are correct. My understanding is that B-12 can be formed (synthesized) only in the presence of Cobalt. If there is no cobalt in the soil, there'll be no B12 in your food. Maybe, I don't know, just a guess, if you consume a cobalt supplement and your entire digestive system is working well, then your gut will be able to manufacture B12. If an animal is eating plant material grown on cobalt-containing soil, then that animal's flesh or eggs will have B-12. It all comes down to minerals. Acc. to the bible we were created from the 'dust' of the earth. Dust = minerals. Minerals come first, vitamins follow.

I read an article 20 years ago where a scientist tested all kinds of meats and found absolutely no B-12 in any of them. How 'bout them apples?

okay, I want to point out some basic obvious info, that basically proves with balance we have nothing to worry about relative to b-12.

Gabriel Cousens MD, has been raw for nearly 30 years, and makes sure he eats sea vegetables, as they are high in b-12. He has his blood work done on the regular. and lo and behold, his b-12 counts are that of a healthy meat eater. somewhere around 500 nanograms. One key factor for EVERYBODY to keep in mind is that 50 -96% of the b-12 is destroyed in COOKING !!!!!!!!
this would obviously be an issue for not only the cooked food vegans, but EVERYBODY who cooks food. Sea vegetables are key. I use kelp and chlorella, among other things. The Standards for vegan food rules are typically made from cooked food info. we need to fight for truth in this raw movement. RAW FOOD STANDARDS !!!!!!!!!!!

I'm sorry RAWLION, but it appears that your information may be somewhat outdated. You may be getting your information from earlier articles/books by Gabriel Cousens.

More recent statements may be found in the article by Gabriel Cousens on this website: [www.living-foods.com]

The entire article is worth reading, but here are a few relevant excerpts:

"Up until this time, many of us have felt that additional supplementation for live fooders with sea vegetables or probiotic formulas was sufficient for protection against B-12 deficiency. This does not seem to be the case....

"Some have theorized that organic foods, in various regions, would improve the B-12 tests by lowering the serum malonic acid, but again, the research has not shown that washed or unwashed organic food has made a difference....

"My suggestion, out of my concern for all of my clients, for my fellow live fooders and vegans is that it is well advised to supplement with an actual B-12 human active supplement. There are vegan B-12 supplements, which allow us to be totally successful vegan live fooders....

AWESOME article, i appreciate the constant pursuit of truth.
I'm glad Dr. Cousens is continually researching things! So yes, it sounds possible still to eat raw and get b-12, just sounds like nobody has figured out the right combinations. It actually sounds like the general population has a problem with b-12 in general. To the point where I'm not sure if raw vegans are in anymore danger than anyone else. I do think about the fact that eggs are a good b-12 source. I wonder if I started putting 1 raw egg in my smoothies every morning, if that would be the perfect supplement to raw vegan??? I'd become, A RAW VEGETARIAN !!!!!!!

Eggs, yuck (no offense).

I suppose all wild primates eat some very small portion of animal, plus their own feces occasionally, so it could be a part of our past human evolutionary makeup.

But I'd rather look toward the future and attempt to contribute to the deliberate evolution of vegan human beings. During the process, I'll take a supplement instead of eating an egg. (Each to their own though, of course!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2010 08:09PM by suncloud.

Well, this is a very interesting topic. My raw food model are - monkeys! They eat termites...should we eat termites or some other insects? How about worms in fruit...if we ate them, would that improve the B12 balance?

i read in one of gabriel cousin's books, the spiritual eating book, that he advises to suppliment b12. Did not read the whole book, but read little parts at a friends' house. Take it for what you will.

I specifically enjoyed what suncloud and brian have to say on this topic.

thanks.

Gabriel Cousens did exhaustive research and came to the conclusion that it's really important for vegans, including raw vegans, to monitor their B12 status and supplement with B12 if needed. He didn't recommend the usual vegan sources of B12-- he felt that they were inadequate. This is posted in an article on his website, unless he's taken it down.

Sharrhan:


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Mercury can induce a B12 deficiency so we need to supplement more in this industrial age than we would in a primitive environmet.
[www.ever.ch]
"What has all this to do with mercury?

Well, there may well be some important links. The monovalent cobalt atom in methyl B12 is readily oxidized by various compounds - for instance nitrous oxide. This oxidation inactivates methioninsyntase (MS) which has then to be formed de novo. Mercury, as we know, does oxidize many compounds, logically also cobalt. lf this hypothesis (which is about to be verified), is confirmed, it means that mercury can block the methylation cycle and thus induce a functional B12-deficiency (folates are not altered). This in turn is one explanation of why symptoms of mercury overload and vitamin B12-deficiency may be identical!

There is also a second possible interaction between vitamin B12, and mercury. Mercury has indeed been shown to impair the Transport of vitamin B12 over the blood-brain barrier which results in a low CSF/serum concentration ratio of the vitamin. Low CSF levels of vitamin B12 (and high CSF-homocysteine levels) have been observed in fibromyalgia (chronic fatigue syndrome), MS and in dementia. High doses of vitamin B12, that overcome the block to some extent, has had sometimes stunning results in these conditions."