We eat the same foods? Whole raw animals including skin, guts and bones, bugs, worms, raw eggs, dirty food, wormy food, rotting food, whole fish (eyes, brains, bones, guts, scales and tails), krill, bark, tree leaves, grass etc? I don't know about you but that stuff never shows up on my plate.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We eat the same foods? Whole raw animals including
> skin, guts and bones, bugs, worms, raw eggs, dirty
> food, wormy food, rotting food, whole fish (eyes,
> brains, bones, guts, scales and tails), krill,
> bark, tree leaves, grass etc? I don't know about
> you but that stuff never shows up on my plate.

I read that outloud and my dogs started salivating. Thanks Coco.

Throw some dirty panties into the mix and your dogs will be the happiest creatures in the universe. That's what my mom's old dog would snack on any chance she got. Used kleenex from the garbage can too. Oh, and not to mention cat po op from the litter box. Mmm, yummy.

Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, we share more than 98 percent of
our genetic. They eat bananas and green leaves.
No B12 injection, no E3 Live, no super food powder, get real guys

chimps also kill and eat other chimps, termites, ants and their own feces

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Some human yogis drink their own urines, what do you make of that if you want to throw in feces? Let's remain on focus on the food issue,let's remain intellectually engaged.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, we share
> more than 98 percent of
> our genetic. They eat bananas and green leaves.
> No B12 injection, no E3 Live, no super food
> powder, get real guys

Your right they are our closest relatives when it comes to genetic makeup, but still we are not chimps we are humans, fact. Yeah they don't need any of those supplements but your looking at this through chimp tinted glasses, they also eat other foods, animals and such which Jodi has posted.

So they are not living primarily on a diet of bananas and greens. Its not hard to get B12 if your eating animals, ants, insects etc.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RawPracticalist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, we share
> > more than 98 percent of
> > our genetic. They eat bananas and green leaves.
> > No B12 injection, no E3 Live, no super food
> > powder, get real guys
>
> Your right they are our closest relatives when it
> comes to genetic makeup, but still we are not
> chimps we are humans, fact. Yeah they don't need
> any of those supplements but your looking at this
> through chimp tinted glasses, they also eat other
> foods, animals and such which Jodi has posted.
>
> So they are not living primarily on a diet of
> bananas and greens. Its not hard to get B12 if
> your eating animals, ants, insects etc.


...Thus veganism may not be natural

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chimpanzees are our closest relatives, we share
> more than 98 percent of
> our genetic. They eat bananas and green leaves.
> No B12 injection, no E3 Live, no super food
> powder, get real guys


Please, have at least a basic understanding of these issues before posting definitive statements like the above. Humans and every living thing on the planet (take lettuce for example) has some common elements (thus the evidence for common descent). Mammals share the most common elements, with some species showing a 98% similarity. However, we don't exactly know what every bit of DNA does (to date the human genome has only been partially mapped), so it's hard to make any definitive statements about it.
Here's an article with some basic info for you to study. Get real indeed.
[ask.metafilter.com]

lol @ this thread being resurrected a year later just to argue.

The problem is that people think their physical make is so special, so unique in nature, they need extra help to get it healthy, they need b12 injections, 8 glasses of water a day, E3 Live, super food powders. Everything is in the raw food. Nutrition is simple. Less is better.

Food is grown in nutritionally depleted soil these days, even organic, and that's a fact. Sadly, food is not as nutritious as it once was. Supplementing with a variety of things is viable, be those things juice or dehydrated powders. They are just concentrated foods after all.

Nothing natural about antibiotics, treating drinking water or the polio vaccine, yet the public health benefit of these things is undeniable.

We have been seperate from non-human primates over millions of years of evolution irrespective of how much genetic material we may share in common with chimpanzees [which Wikipedia reports is closer to 94 percent than 98 percent]. Common chimps are omnivorous regularly consuming termites. They are also highly territorial and aggressive, often killing red colubus monkeys and bush babies. They live 40 years in "nature" and over 60 years in captivity.

Though we may be part of the same genus, as Chris has pointed out, we are not chimpanzees, though some House Republicans may imitate their behavior.

For me, whether veganism is "natural" or not is completely beside the point. I don't live in the wild. And scarcity of food can affect behavior. I have the luxury to decide what food I will eat and what to pass on based on ethics, health and ecology. As I've said many times, natural selection favors survival of the species, not the individual in the species. This preoccupation with what is natural among many raw vegans is counterproductive.


Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2011 10:34PM by pborst.

I cringe every time I see somebody use the chimp card, Im glad to see that others besides me are willing to point out the fallacy of such statements,lol... I personally, have no intent to ever engage in cannibalism...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

One time i have agree with you and ive always thought veganism isn't really natural as its not natural to have to rely on a b12 supplement. But in my opinion it is definitely the most health promoting and best diet for longevity.

Ill give an take with a b12 supplement.

Most of the precursors and analogues are useless from what ive read to be converted to usable b12.

If we take the anology of the car, it is not the quality of the gas that is the problem, it is the engine, the engine needs to be tuned up regularly, you can spend your money on putting super gas in it, it wont go any faster.

It is not the food, it is not the soil, it is the body, the digestive system which has been weakened by years of abuse, drinking milk, eating cooked carbohydrate, burgers, fries, catchups, coke.... Being on raw food a year or two does not reverse the harm.

Many raw foodits when they leave the SAD diet do not spend time in getting their system cleanse so they rely on vitamins, super food powder, B12 injections.

Even if you think the soil is an issue, you can resolve that by growing indoor greens, there is nothing more nutritious than indoor greens such as sufflower greens, you contorl the quality of the soil, the food is fresh, still growing while you are eating. But our raw friends want to rely on dried vitamins, they have no nutrional values, they have no water, they are not digestible.

It is true we are not chimps but the question is what is the natural tendancy of a living being trying to feed itself when he is hungry. When that being find raw apples, it eat them until he is full, simple as abc. It does not need spices, b12 supplements, dried vitamins. But we humans, we need cooked meals that have 100 of items in them, indigestible, we are feeding our taste, not the body.

The truth is simple my friends. It hurts when it goes against our deeply held beliefs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2011 02:32PM by RawPracticalist.

You have to remember when someone does turn to a 100% vegan diet it can take years for them to become b12 deficient due to the liver holding adequate stores.

That analogy doesn't really hold up, i know people with tip top digestions who have lived solely on junk food. Now what your saying is that the quality of the food doesn't matter it is how well our bodies are functioning, yeah part true but if you want to be optimally healthy eating nutrient dense foods are a must.

It is both factors, obviously higher quality nutrient dense food is better than low nutrient junk food filled with additives. But we also require a well functioning body/digestive system in both cases.

I don't think your understand basic human physiology very well, b12 absorption has nothing to do with getting there "system cleansed". B12 absorption relies on adequate levels of gastric acid as well as intrinsic factor. Cleansing your system wont do much for b12 absorption if either of the above are hindered. Our bodies levels of stomach acid lower with age which is why nutrient deficiencies are more prevalent in the elderly as well as diseases such as osteoporosis which are caused by low levels of acid dependent minerals such as silica, which requires acid for its useable conversion.

Also who is saying anyone wants to rely on superfood powders, b12 injections etc. I havent came across one person on this forum in my time here who has said anything of the sort. Food always comes first, as ive said numerous times the hint is in the name, a supplement is supplementary to an already sound diet. If someone wants to supplement there diet with more immune boosting, nutritious foods, phyto-nutrient rich powders, anti-cancer/tumor compounds, liver support herbs etc etc then why not. Its abit like supplementing a good diet with exercise.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2011 02:54PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer, good post, you raise excellent points but this statement is totally wrong

Quote

That analogy doesn't really hold up, i know people with tip top digestions who have lived solely on junk food

We are talking about nutrients absorption not necessarly going to the bathroom.
Junk food will block, reduce nutrient abosorption setting the body into a viral, mucus formning state.

I never said cleansing the body will generate b12. I believe in getting b12 in the natural way, natural form not thru injection or supplements, I do not take supplements and do not believe in them being effective.

I know you never said cleansing the body will generate b12, but you were implying that these people who have not "system cleansed" have to rely on the above.

Nutrient absorption relies on much more than junk food consumption impairing it. Like i say i know many people who have perfect digestion, eat and overeat junk food for decades and are healthy.

I also know people who eat extremely healthy who have poor digestion. Junk food and over eating processed garbage will no doubt tax your digestive system. Over-all health is reliant on many factors out width food, one very important one is positive mental well being and outlook.

How do you get b12 out of interest pending your 100% vegan?

I am not 100 percent vegans, and there is no need to be, it is not observable in nature, and , and ....

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not 100 percent vegans, and there is no need
> to be, it is not observable in nature, and , and
> ....

Ahh i see and although i am 100% vegan i do agree with you on that front. I know meat eating isn't condoned on this site, but i take it that is where you get your b12 from?

You'll have to take a discussion about non-vegan non-supplement sources of B12 to private messages guys. This is strictly a vegan site, we all have to respect that despite our personal beliefs and practices.

"dried vitamins, they have no nutrional values, they have no water, they are not digestible."

That's a crock of @#$%&. While it may be true to say that whole food is he best source of nutrients, etc, it is erroneous to claim that supplements have zero value and are indigestible. If this were the case we wouldn't be able to improve low levels of B12, iron, etc via supplementation. Since we can and this is measurable with blood work etc, the statement that supplements have no nutritional value and are not digestible to plainly wrong.

I know this site doesn't promote non-veganism on the whole and that is more than fair but RP has been a fair bit included in our discussion about his lifestyle and how he obtains his nutrients. Im still interested where he gets his b12 from.

Even if its from a meat source its not as if were promoting that sort of lifestyle, there are many inbetweeners here who are trying to transition, i feel some are too strong on these guys, some don't turn vegan over night and the others are worried about speaking up if they aren't fully 100% or if they temporarily slip from the lifestyle, these guys shouldn't be knocked either. But for the purpose of this thread im still interested in how RP obtains his b12 because he stated he wasn't fully vegan.

I see no unfairness with that, too many of these forums censor and make out everything is fine when people have problems with veganism, high fruit diets etc and then everyone seems like its a cure all when it isnt. Thats not what im getting at here, but there is a difference with promoting meat eating and someone who isnt.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2011 08:32PM by powerlifer.

I don't disagree but we have to respect the rules of the forum which discourage the discussion of animal foods. There is a good reason for it though Chris, in the many years I've been here there have been quite a few complete meltdowns over this issue, it's just best to avoid it altogether or take it to PM. It always starts off innocently enough but it has gotten beyond ugly really quickly way too many times already. Just trust me on this one.

Again like i say that is more than reasonable, i just feel we shouldn't eliminate those who aren't, educating those who are struggling with being fully vegan has always seemed a wiser concept to me, im on another forum where people are transitioning and its much more easy going for them, they dont worry about speaking out of there habits although they are there for one reason which is to change to a healthier lifestyle which im sure most are.

We cant expect the majority overnight to all jump 100% into veganism and if not do we block the rest out who are needing help, the majority don't or cant due to lack of information. Censoring or eliminating information where someone could help shouldn't be encouraged.

Too many vegan forums do this, someone loses hair etc etc, and they get deleted and banned from forums because they couldn't make it work. We should be working together to find the reasons why and most of the times its fairly easy to see where someone is going wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2011 08:49PM by powerlifer.

I used to think like you, but just as many have said...there's much more to it. You should know that e3live is recommended by the candida experts group to help with... bad nutritional deficiencies. I used to be one, and I kid you not 10 minutes after taking the first shot of e3live I felt like someone gave me an energy shot ! when I contacted the candida experts group, they said its very common. It became a staple in our family since then. My son is a professional hockey player, and most of his teammates now take it every day. Here is the link from the candida experts group website.
[candidaspecialists.com]

The first day l took E3 live was one of the best days of my life. It was cold and wet, yet l spent the entire night outside making shelves and doing jobs l would normally dislike, yet l had the most fun ever because the E3 live made me feel like a child again in energy and spirits. I didn't go to bed for over 24 hours because l felt so great. I recall l may have even been singing outside while making these tedious shelves.

The main benefit l got was from the blue pigment of the food. It did impact the mental senses quite noticably.

E3 live is banned from Australia. These days l only take hydrilla algae and take no supplements because l feel l no longer need anything due to my internal changes, and that includes no B12.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2015 10:57PM by The Sproutarian Man.