I've been eating chia seeds lately. When I soak them it only takes a few minutes for them to absorb water and make a gel. Does that mean that whatever enzymatic changes I want to take place have happened and they are good to eat? Or, should I wait longer? (How long?)


My favorite raw vegan

Trive,

I don't know about enzymatic changes. However, I regularly use chia seeds to make a "fresca" which include 1 part seed to 9 parts water (I use a scale and just go 30 grams seed to 300 combined seed and water, makes it easier). Traditionally in Mexico, chia fresca is made with lemon juice and sugar. But my tradition is to use coconut water or freshly made carrot juice. Chia seed is a great staple. It has a great balance between Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids as well as protein and unlike flax seed doesn't need to be ground. In spite of the hype, I haven't read any data that suggests that the Salba brand of chia is any more nutritional. But who knows, I may suprised one day. I'm just not going pay anymore for it. Best to you!

Paul

You should soak them for 10 min. minimum. For several hrs will release even more nutrients.

Simple Raw Recipes & Health Tips

Do they still need to be chewed thoroughly when made into a gel?

"Do they still need to be chewed thoroughly when made into a gel?"

Good question. Yes, the gel is just soaked fiber released by the seed. In nature the gel would serve to retain water to help the seed get established. The seed is protected by a cellulose seed coat which has to be ground or chewed to get to the nutrients inside. Enen single celled chlorella has a cellulose membrane which must be crushed to get at the nutrients inside. Just my opinions.

fruitylou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do they still need to be chewed thoroughly when
> made into a gel?

I had this discussion with Horsea about 2 months ago regarding whether they had to be "crushed" to get the nutrient which is a little different than chewing because chewing provides digestive enzymes that just physical crushing in a blender or coffee grinder won't. Anyway, regarding crushing and the digestability of the seeds in general, here is what I told Horsea:

"Take a look at this article by Dr. Weil [www.drweil.com] and [www.chiaforhealth.com]. To your health! "

Basically, unlike whole flax seeds which have to be ground to be digested, whole chia seeds can be eaten without pregrinding. That said, chewing as opposed to pregrinding will have added benefits in the form of digestive enzymes in your saliva. Same reason Tim Van Orden and Cherie Soria always say to never gulp your smoothie.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 12:04PM by pborst.

Right Paul, if they are not chewed or ground they will not be fully digested. The venders mostly give the impression that chia seeds can be fully digested after a simple soak, for example --

"The fastest and easiest way to take chia seed is to add one tablespoon chia seed into an eight-ounce glass of water or juice, stir to break up any lumps, let sit about five minutes, stir again, and then drink." [www.chiaforhealth.com]

In that case all you get is the gel fiber from the seed coat, none of the nutrients inside the seed. The seed will pass through you hoping to be deposited somewhere it can grow.

I read somewhere that chia fresca is also made with *ground* chia seeds.

By the way, I'm mostly a flax user and seldom grind it. I soak or sprout flax then chew it like any other seed. Flax and chia are the same in this respect. You can simply drink either for the gel, or can chew, grind or blend either for the nutrients inside the seed, in my opinion.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 12:37PM by loeve.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> In that case all you get is the gel fiber from the
> seed coat, none of the nutrients inside the seed.
> The seed will pass through you hoping to be
> deposited somewhere it can grow.
>
> I read somewhere that chia fresca is also made
> with *ground* chia seeds.
>
> .

Loeve,

I think we can agree to disagree about the digestability of whole chia seeds. Dr Weil says pretty clearly in the site I provided above "And, unlike flax, they do not have to be ground to make their nutrients available to the body." And I have read this elsewhere. However, I do agree that chewing improves digestability because of the enzymes in your saliva. I just don't think the whole seed passes through you in its whole form like flax does.

Paul

Yes, thanks Paul, I read your link to Dr. Weil's article first, and he seems to me to be repeating what he read elsewhere, a medical doctor couldn't be expected to know about the digestability of seeds like a nutritionist might. The gel fiber from the seed coat alone is useful and a nutrient so Dr. Weil is correct on that point.

Eh, guys, why not grind the chia up mechanically before soaking it?

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, thanks Paul, I read your link to Dr. Weil's
> article first, and he seems to me to be repeating
> what he read elsewhere, a medical doctor couldn't
> be expected to know about the digestability of
> seeds like a nutritionist might. The gel fiber
> from the seed coat alone is useful and a nutrient
> so Dr. Weil is correct on that point.


For most doctors maybe, Dr. Weil is different. As a practioner of integrative medicine and published author on books such as "Eating Well for Optimal Health" (his primer on nutrition is excellent), Dr. Weil's nutritional knowledge is extensive. So, agree to disagree. I don't think he's talking just about the seed coat.

Tamukha, yes, you certainly can grind up chia seeds before soaking. It won't hurt anything. Unlike flax seed though, it's not necessary, in my opinion. [www.mendosa.com]

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 02:15PM by pborst.

Writing on nutrition does not make one an expert. Dr. Weil is also followed by controversy --

"Some have criticized Dr. Weil for promoting unverified beliefs. Weil's rejection of some aspects of evidence-based medicine and promotion of alternative medicine practices that are not verifiably efficacious has been criticized by noted physicians such as Dr. Arnold S. Relman in his 1998 article "A Trip to Stonesville: Some Notes on Andrew Weil" [en.wikipedia.org]


I use my teeth to grind my flax and chia seeds.

Medosa and Dr. Coates write of *eating* their chia seeds, in no way implying they can be swallowed whole and fully digested --

"Dr. Wayne Coates (image used by permission)
"Their work led to the commercial cultivation of chia in Peru.

"Chia is 16 percent protein, 31 percent fat, and 44 percent carbohydrate of which 38 percent is fiber. Most of its fat is the essential omega-3 fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid or ALA, according to the USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, Release 20 (2007).

"Exactly how much of chia’s fiber is insoluble and soluble is hard to pin down. But about three-fourths is insoluble and one-fourth soluble. Still, chia’s soluble fiber has a much higher viscosity than other dietary fibers such as beta-glucan and guar. This means that it has significantly increased intestinal transit time, delayed gastric emptying, and a slower rate of glucose absorption.

"For all its power chia is a remarkably mild tasting seed. I add it to everything from salad to yogurt to eggs and ground bison. I enjoy its nutlike flavor and sometimes eat a handful of whole seeds straight from the container. Chia is a tasty, interesting, and healthful addition to my diet.

"But for such a little-known food we can find a remarkable amount of stuff on the Internet that just isn’t true. Dr. Coates helped guide me through this morass.

"I don’t have any interest in the recipes for chia that I found in the book by James F. Sheer, The Magic of Chia (Berkeley, California, Frog Ltd., 2001). But essentially all of those recipes call for soaking the chia in a glass of water to form a gel. Is that really necessary?

"It’s not, Dr. Coates replied. “They were believers in soaking, but all that does is bring out the soluble fiber. It doesn’t do anything more magical than that. There is no documented reason to make a gel to use it. I personally just put it on my salad every night and eat it that way.”

"I also wondered if we might need to grind chia seeds, since flax seeds require grinding. Does grinding chia make it more bioavailable?

“Not really,” Dr. Coates replied. With flax you have to grind it, because it has a hard seed coat. Chia doesn’t, so you don’t need to grind it.

"I persisted. It seems to me that the chia is more palatable when I grind it. So is there any reason not to?

“No, there is definitely no reason not to, except for the hassle of doing it,” he answered. “Grinding will not hurt anything, and if in fact you do grind it, the nice thing is that it has natural anti-oxidants so it won’t go rancid like flax.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 03:04PM by loeve.

Loeve,

I would prefer to agree to disagree on this point. But since you insist on keeping this going, I will try to respond succintly:

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Writing on nutrition does not make one an expert.
> Dr. Weil is also followed by controversy --

No writing on nutrition doesn't. But being a Harvard graduate in both botany and medicine as well as the Director of the University of Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine that conducts an annual Nutrition and Health conference and has graduated over more than 450 doctors, physicians assistants and nurses from his program, he is authoritative. Have you read Eating Well for Optimal Wellness? I have. The nutrition primer is clear and well stated. Forbes magazine said r. Weil, a graduate of Harvard Medical School, is one of the most widely known and respected alternative medicine gurus. For five years, he has offered straightforward tips and advice on achieving wellness through natural means and educating the public on alternative therapies"

> "Some have criticized Dr. Weil for promoting
> unverified beliefs. Weil's rejection of some
> aspects of evidence-based medicine and promotion
> of alternative medicine practices that are not
> verifiably efficacious has been criticized by
> noted physicians such as Dr. Arnold S. Relman in
> his 1998 article "A Trip to Stonesville: Some
> Notes on Andrew Weil"
> [en.wikipedia.org]

The Weil Relman debate is old and typifies difference between established traditional medicine and alternative medicine. Weil embraces both. Relman only considers traditional allopathic medicine. [discovermagazine.com] What does Dr. Relman think about Dr. Coates opinion on chia seeds??? lol

>
> I use my teeth to grind my flax and chia seeds.

No reason not to. Just assume you have to for chia. For flax, your preference, I use a coffee grinder.

>
> Medosa and Dr. Coates write of *eating* their chia
> seeds, in no way implying they can be swallowed
> whole and fully digested --

That's simply not true. "I also wondered if we might need to grind chia seeds, since flax seeds require grinding. Does grinding chia make it more bioavailable?

“Not really,” Dr. Coates replied. With flax you have to grind it, because it has a hard seed coat. Chia doesn’t, so you don’t need to grind it."

What do you think he's talking about when he's discussing bioavailability?

Other authorities.

[healthmad.com]
"You do not need to grind the Chia Seeds to digest it. It is a relatively easy to digest seed, whereas flax seeds are not. Often, one has to grind flax seeds to be able to process them in their digestive system. That is not the case with chia seeds."

[www.purehealingfoods.com]
Q: Is it necessary to grind the seed?
A: Chia seeds do not need to be ground for absorption, unlike flax.

[longevity.about.com]
Unlike flax seed, you don't have to grind chia seed in order for your body to use it and chia seed does not spoil quickly, making it much more convenient than flax seed.

Ok, Loeve, this is what I am basing my opinion on, not just Dr. Weil. Do you have any data or source other than your opinion that whole chia seed is not digestable? I'm open minded enough to read it and consider it. I'm certain since you feel so strongly about this that you have some references to support your opinion. I look forward to reading them.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 03:58PM by pborst.

correction, where it says "Just assume you have to for chia" should read "Just don't assume you have to for chia". Prana see other thread on editing time limits.

"That's simply not true. "I also wondered if we might need to grind chia seeds, since flax seeds require grinding. Does grinding chia make it more bioavailable?

“Not really,” Dr. Coates replied. With flax you have to grind it, because it has a hard seed coat. Chia doesn’t, so you don’t need to grind it."

What do you think he's talking about when he's discussing bioavailability?"
.............

But, you still have to chew it, as all seeds I know of have a cellulose structure. Your Mendosa source states "Chia is 16 percent protein, 31 percent fat, and 44 percent carbohydrate of which 38 percent is fiber." The "38% fiber" is a killer when it comes to human digestion, unless it's broken down somehow. I don't know, maybe in people with long transit times (days) they can be fermented.

"But for such a little-known food we can find a remarkable amount of stuff on the Internet that just isn’t true. Dr. Coates helped guide me through this morass."- again, your Mendosa source.

Chia is not just "little known", it is little studied.

On seed dispersal--
"Seed dispersal via ingestion by animals, or endozoochory, is the dispersal mechanism for most tree species.[13] Endozoochory is generally a coevolved mutualistic relationship in which a plant surrounds seeds with an edible, nutritious fruit as a good food for animals that consume it. Birds and mammals are the most important seed dispersers..." [en.wikipedia.org]

Having chewed chia seeds I know it is difficult to chew every last one, tiny as they are.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "That's simply not true. "I also wondered if we
> might need to grind chia seeds, since flax seeds
> require grinding. Does grinding chia make it more
> bioavailable?
>
> “Not really,” Dr. Coates replied. With flax
> you have to grind it, because it has a hard seed
> coat. Chia doesn’t, so you don’t need to grind
> it."
>
> What do you think he's talking about when he's
> discussing bioavailability?"
> .............
>
> But, you still have to chew it, as all seeds I
> know of have a cellulose structure. Your Mendosa
> source states "Chia is 16 percent protein, 31
> percent fat, and 44 percent carbohydrate of which
> 38 percent is fiber." The "38% fiber" is a killer
> when it comes to human digestion, unless it's
> broken down somehow. I don't know, maybe in
> people with long transit times (days) they can be
> fermented.
>
> "But for such a little-known food we can find a
> remarkable amount of stuff on the Internet that
> just isn’t true. Dr. Coates helped guide me
> through this morass."- again, your Mendosa
> source.
>
> Chia is not just "little known", it is little
> studied.
>
> On seed dispersal--
> "Seed dispersal via ingestion by animals, or
> endozoochory, is the dispersal mechanism for most
> tree species.[13] Endozoochory is generally a
> coevolved mutualistic relationship in which a
> plant surrounds seeds with an edible, nutritious
> fruit as a good food for animals that consume it.
> Birds and mammals are the most important seed
> dispersers..."
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> sal_by_animals
>
> Having chewed chia seeds I know it is difficult to
> chew every last one, tiny as they are.

First of all my Mendosa source, Dr. Coates said nothing about chewing. He just said it didn't have to be ground. I stipulated that chewing was beneficial because of the digestive enzymes. Your original position on the 5th post of this thread was that whole chia seeds had to either be ground or chewed in order any nutrients inside. Any my position beginning on the 6th post of this thread is that grinding isn't necessary and chewing is beneficial, though not essential because of dietary enzymes. If you just swallow whole chia seeds, you can benefit by chewing first. I agree with that and that has been my position. And grinding is not based on what I know essential to absorb some of the nutrients in chia. That is, the whole seed does not just pass right through you the way a flax seed would. Now, can we agree to disagree on the need to grind whole chia seeds? Thanks.

Paul

Or Loeve, if you have another point and you want to discuss, I've cleared my inbox, let's take to PMs. Appreciate it.

Very good Paul.

"I've been eating chia seeds lately. When I soak them it only takes a few minutes for them to absorb water and make a gel."

I noticed too the chia seeds make a gel very quickly. I think that's an advantage when in nature and the seed has fallen on the ground and there's rain or dew for the seed to collect to help start growing.

Dr. Coates was interviewed by Dr. Liers, Liers using them whole, ground or blended.

"People also report that chia helps their pets. Dogs and cats have experienced remarkable results. Pet owners will grind the chia, and serve it to their pets mixed with food." [www.naturalnews.com]

Pets are less able to masticate unless they're lucky enough to be herbivores, and then it might still be ground up and added to feed, I read.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very good Paul.
>
> "I've been eating chia seeds lately. When I soak
> them it only takes a few minutes for them to
> absorb water and make a gel."
>
> I noticed too the chia seeds make a gel very
> quickly. I think that's an advantage when in
> nature and the seed has fallen on the ground and
> there's rain or dew for the seed to collect to
> help start growing.
>
> Dr. Coates was interviewed by Dr. Liers, Liers
> using them whole, ground or blended.
>
> "People also report that chia helps their pets.
> Dogs and cats have experienced remarkable results.
> Pet owners will grind the chia, and serve it to
> their pets mixed with food."
> [www.naturalnews.com]
> s.html
>
> Pets are less able to masticate unless they're
> lucky enough to be herbivores, and then it might
> still be ground up and added to feed, I read.


You don't seem willing to let this one go sport in spite of my efforts. Ok. Couple of things. In your cite, Liers interviews Dr. Coats and says lots of people use chia with better results than flax. Ok. Liers goes on to say he uses it whole, and ground and that it stays raw longer than flax and Dr. Coates agrees. Nowhere in this interview does Dr. Coates say grinding is essential for humans to obtain nutrients from chia seeds And in the earlier cite he says the opposite, Uncontroverted. The pet stuff is a red herring. I'm used to those. What pet owners do or don't do has little to do with people. At best it's a common practice, not a necessity. Let's try to see some authority saying people need to grind chia seeds to get chia seed benefits. This post of yours ain't it. Since you have persisted in extended this thread instead of either agreeing to disagree or taking it to PMs as I requested, I will leave one request for you and not respond to anymore red herrings -- irrelevant posts designed to distract the reader from the original point -- your position was that grinding or chewing from chia seeds was essential for humans to gain nutrients from this food. I provided my sources and asked you to provide yours. In your last few posts, you have been unable to produce them. If you have some references to support your position, please provide them. As I said, I will be eager to read them.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 08:48PM by pborst.

Hi Paul, I was addressing the OP's first post but since you responded, "Liers is not a "Dr." His vocation appears to be "citizen journalist."

I'm just going by the introductions in the article itself --

"Dr. Fred Liers: How did you become involved with chia seeds?

"Dr. Wayne Coates: I have worked on many new crops over the years. Chia is one of them." [www.naturalnews.com]



Dr. Wayne Coates is in the business of selling chia products and has assembled studies that he feels relevant, mostly animal studies -- [www.eatchia.com]

There just aren't many studies of chia on humans, sorry.

Trive Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been eating chia seeds lately. When I soak
> them it only takes a few minutes for them to
> absorb water and make a gel. Does that mean that
> whatever enzymatic changes I want to take place
> have happened and they are good to eat? Or,
> should I wait longer? (How long?)

I remember reading when a seed is soaked the cells inside divide. Chia seeds double in size pretty quickly, I guess owing to this first cell division. But to get to the enzymes and other nutrients inside one has to get past the seed coat first. Dr. Lier referrences grinding chia for cats and dogs. Dr. Coates likes to sprinkle them on his salad.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Paul, I was addressing the OP's first post but
> since you responded, "Liers is not a "Dr." His
> vocation appears to be "citizen journalist."

What? When did I say that?

> Dr. Wayne Coates is in the business of selling
> chia products and has assembled studies that he
> feels relevant, mostly animal studies --
> [www.eatchia.com]
>

According to Dr. Liers "Dr. Wayne Coates, who is perhaps the world's foremost educator on chia seeds. Dr. Coates was among the first to grow chia seeds experimentally and later for commercial purposes. An expert in the field of new crops such as chia and jojoba, his career as a research professor at the University of Arizona spanned over twenty-five years. Dr. Coates holds a doctorate in Agricultural Engineering from Oklahoma State University, Stillwater. He is the co-author with Ricardo Ayerza of Chia: Rediscovering a Forgotten Crop of the Aztecs, 200"5

Ok, and this is the same guy who above said grinding whole chia seeds isn't necessary.

> There just aren't many studies of chia on humans,
> sorry.

I guess not.

Paul

Interesting discussion Loeve and Pborst!

I'm glad people are enjoying chia. I think it's a great food.

I think there may be an alternative possibility about the digestion of chia, and some other seeds as well. Possibly.....:

Could the digestive system have it's very own hulling mechanism for certain (but maybe not all) foods? I've noticed that unhulled sesame seeds go in brown, but come out white (if they escape being chewed). My understanding is that most of the mineral content of the sesame seed is located in the hull. Perhaps in the natural hulling process of digestion, the minerals are separated out and absorbed.

I'm thinking the same may be possible for chia.

There may in fact be some down sides to grinding the chia before eating:

-Oxidation occurs when the inner parts of whole foods are exposed to air. Oxidation is damaging to plant cells and may effect nutrient value.

-Eating unground chia probably enhances saliva production - an essential component of digestion.

-Could there be greater absorption of unnecessary plant fats when seeds are ground before eating?

-When we avoid grinding, if we happen to @#$%& out of doors (like the other animals), we pass viable seed for dispersal into the environment, and a renewed source of seed. Obviously some seeds nutrients aren't retained by the body or else the seed wouldn't grow. But maybe we don't have to keep everything? Maybe when we eat plants in their most natural unprocessed form we get enough (if we eat enough).

All just theory of course.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 12:25AM by suncloud.

"Could the digestive system have it's very own hulling mechanism"

Lots of animals have gizzards, birds especially, very tough digestive organs sometimes augmented by intentionally swallowed pebbles helping to grind up food. Human guts churn food which must cause a certain amount of friction.

Seeds are embryonic plants. Chia is a dicot seed meaning it will sprout two embryonic leaves, and in Chia's case will carry the seed's store of nutrients up out of the ground in those first two leaves, casting off its seed coat in the process --



My point is that the seed is basically a baby plant with a root and leaves all bound up within the seed coat just waiting for the right conditions to spring forth. The human gut would supply the moisture to release the soluble fiber gel and to start the enzymes. Beyond that is what we are trying to figure out...

Here's another google image of a germinating soybean, another dicot. The food stores of the seed are contained in the emerging first two leaves.


[www.plantsci.missouri.edu]

Me, I eat some chia seed whole, chewing as well as I can; and I also eat some ground. Just for variety, you see, but inadvertently I may be doing myself a favour. Maybe the ground seed works in one way, and the whole seed (chewed in the mouth rather than in the grinder) works in another way. All for our benefit.

Quick question Paul...I'm new to chia seeds and was wondering if Dr. Wayne Coates meant you can swallow chia seeds whole only when they're micro sliced like mila. I personally purchase mine from another source and they're not micro sliced so will that make a difference in the digestion process. The way I take my seeds is as follows: I soak a tablespoon of chia in a tall glass of water for 30 minutes and then drink them as is (whole). I do that twice a day.

We've got a Scooby Doo chia pet sprouting in the kitchen window right now. We won't be eating those sprouts, who knows what they treat them with! But I have some organic chia that I soak and add to smoothies on occasion, we can make chia hair with that and harvest the sprouts for salad. It's so cute, this green hairy terracotta cartoon dog head, heh.

Sisi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quick question Paul...I'm new to chia seeds and
> was wondering if Dr. Wayne Coates meant you can
> swallow chia seeds whole only when they're micro
> sliced like mila. I personally purchase mine from
> another source and they're not micro sliced so
> will that make a difference in the digestion
> process. The way I take my seeds is as follows:
> I soak a tablespoon of chia in a tall glass of
> water for 30 minutes and then drink them as is
> (whole). I do that twice a day.

My understanding from reading Coates and others is that whole chia seeds are digested and that their nutrients are absorbed. Not sure what micro sliced means. But based on what I have read, the way you describe sounds fine.



Anyone who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine 'that violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom.

Robert Heinlein

Sisi

I think that's right.

Paul