Hi,

I am reading it again.
I do understand and accept the idea of it, much of it makes sense to me but I can't seem to get around the fact that in the back of my mind I find it hard to believe that man existed on mostly fruit, ever.

I mean fruit is so seasonal so how could man have lived on mostly fruit?

Am I missing something? Is this all based on the assumption that man would have first existed in tropical regions and moved away from the equator or such?

Yes it is based on that assumption.

I like Dr. Graham's work and think that 80/10/10 has a lot to offer SOME people. It's not for everyone and I certainly don't think it is an easy road for someeone starting on their raw journey.

I think that 'Becoming Raw' - the essential guide to raw vegan diets by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina is a brilliant work for both beginner and seasoned raw fooder.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2010 09:47PM by flipperjan.

Thank you flibberjan.

I actually have that book on my list. Buying one every week from Amazon.

I so WANT to be able to eat fruit but because of my past candida issues I am really afraid of it. Right now I am sticking to Apples and berries only.

Well give it some time. Just remember that everyone has their own 'BEST' way and they are all different. Eventually you will work out what suits YOU best. Read it all but keep an open mind.

I don't have Candida but thought you might find this forum helpful somehow..

[www.therawfoodsite.com]
and [www.therawfoodsite.com]

Old topics. But the forum has been closed of "new threads" for years to make people search and reply to the topics already there.

I'm not posting to say that you should fast. I just thought it might be an interesting read since that fast/cleanse is based off of lemons and maple syrup or lemons and Agave and the "Candida" topic comes up a lot. Seems most people didn't have a problem with Candida and the sugar. Search the forum if you get bored.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2010 10:11PM by BackAgain.

Hi BackAgain,

Interesting that you mention the lemon and agave fast. (much like the Master cleanse I think).

I actually did that last year to help my candida. I could only make it 7 days but it really cleared it up.

Thanks for the site.. gonna check it out.

flipperjan,
Absolutely, I am right with you on that. I want to learn as much as I can and I have a very open mind, but I certainly will have to learn for myself which "way" is best for me, I know too that it can change the longer I am Raw.

DaisyHair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi,
>
> I am reading it again.
> I do understand and accept the idea of it, much of
> it makes sense to me but I can't seem to get
> around the fact that in the back of my mind I find
> it hard to believe that man existed on mostly
> fruit, ever.
>
> I mean fruit is so seasonal so how could man have
> lived on mostly fruit?
>
> Am I missing something? Is this all based on the
> assumption that man would have first existed in
> tropical regions and moved away from the equator
> or such?

When early hominids lived in the forest, it was at least possible and there is some evidence for it and some evidence against it. Evidence for it [select.nytimes.com] "Dental studies
In 1979, Professor Alan Walker, a Johns Hopkins University paleoanthropologist reported that preliminary studies of unmarked tooth enamel in early hominoids suggested that pre-human ancestors apparently had a diet of mostly fruit. Walker said, "I don't want to make too much of this yet. But it is quite a surprise."
[en.wikipedia.org]

Evidence that early humans did not rely mostly on fruit. [news.softpedia.com] [www.ivu.org] [news.nationalgeographic.com]
[news.harvard.edu] [scitizen.com]

best evidence for this article is that early humans went for nuts, root vegetables and insects over fruit. [news.discovery.com]

I personally think that the vegan preoccupation of "what our natural diet is" is very counterproductive. It's a red herring and a distraction. If you want to dig deep enough, you may find we evolved on a diet that included animal products. Many of the references I reproduced from the "Need an Article Pls" thread would support that. But as I have said more than a few times, what we ate as a species in a state of nature and how natural selection affected has limited utility in our best chess move on what to eat as individuals within that species. Natural selection does not select based on how long people live. How long people live is irrelevant to survival of the species when reproduction occurs in the first half. If anything, fast growth, early reproduction may be great for the species, and bad for the individual in the species. Does that make sense? If you mature more quickly, you can spread your genes and reproduce but you may die earlier as a result.

Vegans go vegan for a number of reasons, health, ecology, ethics. But very little of it has anything to do with what early hominids did or a vegan paleo diet.

My view. Know that there those on this forum who disagree. Not going to argue this one. Did that with Chris. Am all argued out for the moment! Best.

Paul



We couldn't live on it exclusively when humans lived in the jungle as fruit is seasonal. So, in the off season, human ate what they could find. After we moved from the forest to the savanah and other environments, our food consumption varied based on what was available.

............. thought better of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2010 10:55PM by pborst.

Humans probably evolved in the tropics. Millions of years ago, there was a time when this was the planet of the apes. There were more ape species than exist today, and the tropics could have covered a larger percentage of the earth then than it does today.

80/10/10 is an excellent diet, but it may take some time to transition to such a clean diet. Some people can do it over night, but for myself, I took over 2 years to transition to a low fat raw vegan diet, and thats after I had already transitioned to a high fat raw vegan diet.

I find that omnivores try to bring up "natural diet" more than anything whereas every vegan I know does it for ethics and doesn't feel a need to substantiate anything to an omnivore attempting to argue what's "natural."

Daisy Hair,

For me, I like 80/10/10, and adhere to it most of the time. Doug Graham makes a lot of arguments that seem reasonable, but may not be borne out if further scrutinized, so my feeling about his pro-fruit arguments is that, for most of Homo sapiens' history, including the present, we've tolerated and thrived on plant foods, so it makes sense to make them a major part of the diet. What matters is how you personally do on high fruit. No paleoanthropological argument makes sense if your own body rejects the diet. Lastly, bear in mind that high fructose isn't the problem regarding Candida albicans; it's high fat + high fructose. It's high fat. As with high sugar and diabetes mellitus; the pancreas doesn't have as many freakouts provided serum triglycerides remain low. I assume any sugar dependent disorder, like fungal infection, follows suit. From my own experience, I have found this to be true. But you'll only be sure if you try.

Utopian life,

That is a good point. I think my pre-occupation with "what did our ancestors REALLY eat" comes from previous many months of low carb programming. Its pushed very much in LC circles that it's what our ancestors did.. ie: paleo, primal blueprint, etc. I have heard it so much I still think along those lines and am curious about it still.

I do know that I am drawn to vegan and raw because of health reasons. Intuitively the heavy dairy feels wrong although I LOVE cheese and think it will be the one thing I will have issues with later. I was raised for several years as a veggie but my parents ate dairy.

I have never felt right eating meat and actually tried to do low carb in a veggie way.... it's just too hard.

Prana,
I think you are right on for me.
I have been on such a fatty diet that I know if I try to go low fat raw right now I will not be able to sustain the change. Just doing High raw for me is a huge change right now. I am really needing the nuts and seeds and avo and coconut oil to feel satiated, at least right now.

Paul,
Thank you! I am checking out your links. You made very good points.

Thanks for the excellent info ! I enjoyed reading it very much.

Lets also rememeber that our ancestors ate other humans and some tribes still do today. No tribe on earth didnt have any cannibalism in it. But I dont see any fad diet books on the shelves that include cannibalism..

Human will eat anything to survive and people want to buy books that say good things about their bad habits.

Mangoes anyone?

ALL the 'fructose' studies are done using GMO HFCS. Ive searched and searched and so have many others in the fruit eating movement and we cant find one study that talks about using fructose in the form of whole,ripe fruit.

Candida is an excess fat intake problem for sure. But again, that doesnt sell many books. But just look at all the 811 fruit bats that have no candida issues anymore..look at all the high fat fruit phobics that still have candida issues..

DaisyHair,

Once you have lived off fruit for some time, things will make sense. For me, reading about fruit eating came after actually doing it, as I was curious about it and wanted to understand why this could feel so good. To my surprise, the modern literature indeed confirms our frugivorous origin. What's natural, feels food. Makes perfect sense.

(below is a quote from the article at [www.rawgosia.com])

“Anthropoids, including all great apes, take most of their diet from plants, and there is general consensus that humans come from a strongly herbivorous ancestry” [7]. Bonobos, “humans’ closest relatives in the animal kingdom” [10], “eat mainly ripe fruit, supplemented with herbaceous terrestrial plants” [11]. “Humans and apes are remarkably similar biologically. In the wild, apes and monkeys consume diets composed largely of plant foods, primarily the fruits and leaves of tropical forest trees and vines. Considerable evidence indicates that the ancestral line giving rise to humans (Homo spp.) was likewise strongly herbivorous (plant-eating)” [6]. In fact, “Humans are ancestrally derived from frugivorous primates” [3]. “Study of the diet of frugivorous human ancestors is accordingly of relevance to understanding the nutritional requirements of modern humans” [8]. A frugivorous dietary heritage of humans is frequently posited [1][2][3][4]. The molar morphology of the earliest hominins implies “a fairly frugivorous diet” [5]. “Comparative data suggests that human nutrient requirements and most features of human digestive morphology and physiology are conservative in nature and probably were little affected by the hunter-gatherer phase of human existence” [6]. “We were not biologically selected by the evolution process to eat the way we do today” [9]. “The widespread prevalence of diet-related health problems, particularly in highly industrialized nations, suggests that many humans are not eating in a manner compatible with their biology.” Consumption of “more fresh fruits and vegetables in greater variety” is recommended [7].

[1] “Fruits, fingers, and fermentation: The sensory cues available to foraging primates”, Dominy NJ, Integrative and Comparative Biol, 44 (4): 295-303, 2004.
[2] “Ferment in the family tree: Does a frugivorous dietary heritage influence contemporary patterns of human ethanol use?”, Milton K, Integrative and Comparative Biol, 44 (4): 304-314, 2004.
[3] “Ethanol, fruit ripening, and the historical origins of human alcoholism in primate frugivory”, Dadley R, Integrative and Comparative Biol, 44 (4): 315-323, 2004.
[4] “Evolutionary origins of human alcoholism in primate frugivory”, Dadley R, Q Rev Biol, 75(1):3-15, 2000.
[5] “Origin of Human Bipedalism: The Knuckle-Walking Hypothesis Revisited”, Richmond BG, Begun DR, Strait DS; Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 44:70-105, 2001.
[6] “Back to basics: why foods of wild primates have relevance for modern human health”, Milton K, Nutrition, 16(7):480-483, 2000.
[7] “Nutritional characteristics of wild primate foods: do the diets of our closest living relatives have lessons for us?”, Milton K, Nutrition, 15(6):488-498, 1999.
[8] “The Comparative Biology of Ethanol Consumption: An Introduction to the Symposium”, Dudley R, Dickinson M, Integrative and Comparative Biology, 44(4):267-268, 2004.
[9] “Similarities of prostate and breast cancer: Evolution, diet, and estrogens”, Coffey DS, Urology, 57(4 Suppl 1):31-8, 2001.
[10] “Divergence of T2R chemosensory receptor families in humans, bonobos, and chimpanzees”, Parry CM, Erkner A, le Coutre J, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 101 (41): 14830-14834 OCT 12 2004.
[11] “The social behavior of chimpanzees and bonobos - empirical evidence and shifting assumptions”, Stanford CB, Current Anthropology, 39 (4): 399-420 AUG-OCT 1998.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

80-10-10 is a high-energy, super cleansing diet, that will make you feel invincible for awhile. Maybe even have a run of several years. After awhile, if you're true to the diet, problems will manifest. You can choose to ignore them, or you can do something about it like I did. I'm unaware of any diet (besides a horrible fast food dominant diet) that ages you faster than 80-10-10. Not a good thing for the poster boy of 80-10-10 to look very, very old for his age, with awful skin.

Best,
Mark



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2010 09:42PM by marksquire.

marksquire
What did you do when you changed from the 811 diet? If you already told us on this forum, please quote yourself.

Love
Jacob

"As a very extreme vegan diet, fruitarianism is highly restrictive, making nutritional adequacy almost impossible.[26] The Health Promotion Program at Columbia University reports that a fruitarian diet can cause deficiencies in calcium, protein, iron, zinc, vitamin D, most B vitamins (especially B12), and essential fatty acids."[en.wikipedia.org]

And 80-10-10 doesn't work for everyone.

[www.rawradianthealth.com]

I just ordered the book transferred from another library. I am curious to see how the author explains this but I doubt I could do it. Eating only 10% fat is very difficult when you are talking about a 1800-2000 calorie diet to begin with! 180 fat calories in one day raw? That is only one serving of nuts (and some would be slightly over that). A serving size is 1/4 cup nuts or seeds a day and that would mean no avocado, olives/olive oil, etc. That doesn't work for me but I am trying to keep an open mind...

I think I have read somewhere in the 80-10-10 book that human natural habitat is within 1000 miles from the Equator. So, yes, it should be possible to live on mostly fruit, most of the year.

With the invention of glass and different sources of energy, THIS SHOULD BE POSSIBLE ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET NOW.

I'm curious, marksquire, as I saw your inflammatory post that I assume was removed yesterday, wherein (in addition to putting Prana down) you said something to the effect that there was no picture on the internet of a longterm raw vegan who looked healthy (which is obviously opinion on what looks healthy, but let's run with yours for a minute).

Are you REALLY trying to state that the lack of existence of a photo with the words associated with it "longterm raw vegan" that is Google-able is PROOF of something? And if so, what? Really interested in this speculation and extrapolation of yours.

Uh rab, your joking about that last part? right? in most parts of the world, just growing the fruit would have astronomical costs...far more than it currently costs to ship it, and that cost is pretty high in some areas... Im fairly certain that although its certainly possible that one could survive on mostly fruit anywhere on this planet, to truly say ANYWHERE and have it be an accurate statements, one would have to also add "If your rich." to the end of your above statement,lol...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

candida has very little to do with fat being the cause durian, candida occurs due to changes in PH in the intestine. When the PH goes alkaline usually due to depletion of good bacteria(from antibiotics, chemicals,stress etc) which secrete certain acids to keep candida in check, the alkaline PH allows candida to mutate from the harmless yeast form to fungal overgrowth.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2010 07:00PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer,

As I understand it from biology class, candida albicans is not a harmless microbe in and of itself; it's the limited population of it that exists in a healthy gut that makes its presence innocuous. Once something causes an overgrowth, its population becomes deleterious--it reduces extracellular pH as it multiplies, which further exacerbates the unwholesomness of the internal terrain. Whatever the cause of the initial imbalance may be, excess blood triglycerides provide a constant source of sluggishly moving glucose for the organism, and excess fat consumption should be avoided. This resemblance between the metabolic chemistry and behavior of candida albicans overpopulations and those of cancer cells has prompted speculation that there is a symbiotic reltionship between the two kinds of cells, intriguingly.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2010 07:51PM by Tamukha.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer,
>
> As I understand it from biology class, candida
> albicans is not a harmless microbe in and of
> itself; it's the limited population of it that
> exists in a healthy gut that makes its presence
> innocuous. Once something causes an overgrowth,
> its population becomes deleterious--it reduces
> extracellular pH as it multiplies, which further
> exacerbates the unwholesomness of the internal
> terrain. Whatever the cause of the initial
> imbalance may be, excess blood triglycerides
> provide a constant source of sluggishly moving
> glucose for the organism, and excess fat
> consumption should be avoided. This resemblance
> between the metabolic chemistry and behavior of
> candida albicans overpopulations and those of
> cancer cells has prompted speculation that there
> is a symbiotic reltionship between the two kinds
> of cells, intriguingly.


Yeah tamukha, but i havent read much research that excess blood triglycerides cause candida overgrowth.

Curator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uh rab, your joking about that last part? right?
> in most parts of the world, just growing the fruit
> would have astronomical costs...far more than it
> currently costs to ship it, and that cost is
> pretty high in some areas... Im fairly certain
> that although its certainly possible that one
> could survive on mostly fruit anywhere on this
> planet, to truly say ANYWHERE and have it be an
> accurate statements, one would have to also add
> "If your rich." to the end of your above
> statement,lol...


With green houses, it should be possible to grow fruit anywhere (ok, probably not close to North and South poles, but maybe even there, and probably much costlier in deserts). If the inventors and constructors were stimulated by governments, world would be full of practical solutions for growing fruit and vegetable. If they only changed some laws JUST A LITTLE BIT, the consumption of fruit could be much higher in almost every country. The most important part of all this is - EDUCATION. Teaching children the importance of gardening in their lives, and how to start a garden almost anywhere. But, governments do not need truly independent and healthy people - they need expendable workforce.

Rab, I highly suggest you should research the cost of running a green house, in some parts of the world electric heaters would be needed to extend the growing season long enough to even be able to grow fruit in any decent amount, and in some parts of the world, Air conditioning would be needed, then on top of that there are many areas that just don't have enough water handy to grow fruit crops, which need ALLOT more water than most other food crops.

Fruit is awesome, wonderful in every way, and yes with a few changes fruit consumption could be increased, but per your original statement, it would just not be possible for that to be every ones primary food source everywhere in the world unless we wake up one day in the middle of some wonderful new world where everyone lives at peace with each other, never gets sick, our roads never need to be repaved, and we have free renewable energy that doesn't harm us or the environment... I believe that's all possible someday, well, most of it...but not yet...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Ive got heaps of blood tests on youtube that debunk the theory that sweet fruit raises Triglycerides or you dont get enough protein, calcium, zinc etc.

As for b12, heck all the olympians/TDF riders I train with they ALL take a b12 supp and none are vegan. I take one cos I live in a sterile society with way more stress than we would have had in nature. b12 is 'the' stress vitamin.

If its good for a few years, its good for life. Doug has aged? Heck EVERYBODY ages when they have kids! Show me the exceptions!!

I cant imagine how hard it would be to raise a natural child in this crazy world. Thats why I had a vasectomy. Ive been eating high fruit for over 8 years and people tell me I look like a teenager and Im 33. Just look at my youtube vids.

Fruit diet is the most youthening way to eat period. No salt, low fat, lots a sleep, water and exercise..too easy.

But undereat, stress, do drugs, eat too many avo's, dont drink water and expect less than the best for sure and end up on wikipedia!

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "As a very extreme vegan diet, fruitarianism is
> highly restrictive, making nutritional adequacy
> almost impossible.[26] The Health Promotion
> Program at Columbia University reports that a
> fruitarian diet can cause deficiencies in calcium,
> protein, iron, zinc, vitamin D, most B vitamins
> (especially B12), and essential fatty
> acids."[en.wikipedia.org]#
> cite_note-25

Doug Graham- author and eater of the 811 raw vegan diet clearly looks very protein deficient in this picture.

Seems like people forget that 80/10/10 is not fruitarianism! Doug suggests a fair amount of greens be eaten daily as well. If I remember correctly, a least a head of lettuce per day