I just kind of thought I'd post this as a sort of spin-off to the post called "Too Much Fruit".

I hope I can do this without hurting anyone's feelings. It's hard sometimes to disagree or debate in a genteel manner. Please believe I mean no harm.

In my own experience, if I eat more than a couple of salads a week, I feel bad. So I usually eat just that amount and no more. Fruit and nut/seeds always make me feel great, unless I'm away from home and have to eat IMPORTED, green-picked chemicallized fruit from the SUPERmarket. That's MY experience, based on 20 years 100% vegan, high raw, high fruit, all raw the last 6 months, all raw for 2 1/2 years previously.

Should I write a book about how too much vegetables are bad for you and try to convince everybody to eat them only twice a week like I do?

(Again, hope no bad feelings come from this)

Best wishes, -Ally

Twice a week? wow

I reckon a big green salad a day keeps the doctor away

Cheers,
J

Hi Jose,

I LOVE veggies. I WISH I could eat them everyday without feeling bad. My point is we're all different. Maybe all of us have to find out for ourselves which raw vegan foods will be best for keeping the doctor away.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2006 12:32AM by Ally.

I am with Jose. I don't think there is anything more potently protective and nutritious than a huge green salad every day. Sometimes I have two of them per day!

Your problems might have something to do with the greens and other vegetables you are using. I concentrate on lettuces (6-10 cups), which are mild, supplemented with cruciferous (kale, collards, cabbages) and goosefoot leaves (spinach, chard, beet greens) along with sparing amounts of Italian parsley.

All the other vegetables I use in my salads are in minor amounts, except for tomatoes. Some people have trouble with raw onions and raw peppers.

Too many crucifers can hurt my stomach, as can too many goosefoot leaves.

So you might have to do some experimenting to which ones are easiest on you, rather than throwing out the whole deal!

How can you be sure you are 100 percent raw on a diet of nuts and fruit? Most nuts are not raw and most dried fruit are not. The 100 percent raw are very rare species in our times.

You should culture the vegetables and make sauerkraut and veggie kraut.

Sauerkraut culturing tools:

[store.therawdiet.com]

Arugula, Hi.

I'm not throwing out the whole deal. I eat salads 2 times a week, sometimes more, but 2 salads a week seems optimal for me.

About a month ago, I gave it another whack and ate a salad every day for about a week. Not a real big salad either. That time we had a rental car, so all the salad stuff came from the health food store and was organic. I was visiting family, so there were pictures. My eyes were half closed all the time because they were so swollen. But a few days back to my normal routine of a couple of salads a week, and I was back to feeling good again.

Since I love salads, I have experimented all over the place for the last TWENTY YEARS, when I became a vegan. Cooked grains and beans are much worse on me than veggies, so raw food was pretty much the only healthy option I had. Cooked veggies were OK, but I get the same symptoms from cooked veggies that I get from raw veggies, but worse. You're right that cruciferous veggies can be more of a problem than other veggies, so I usually avoid them, and when I do eat them it's very sparingly. No matter what kind of salad I have, if there's veggies in it, the results are always the same.

I'm just really glad I can eat SOMETHING. And I'm really glad I can eat salads a couple of times a week and feel pretty good.

Hey, here's a possibility: maybe a couple of salads a week is just what I SHOULD be eating, since that's what makes me feel best! Impossible? An open mind is all I ask.



Hi Djatchi,

I eat nuts and seeds that I've confirmed are raw because I've sprouted them. We grow macadamia nuts and have our own husker and cracker, so I know they're raw. I also eat a lot of unhulled sesame seeds. I've planted and grown them before, so I know they're raw. I eat the jungle peanuts (usually sprouted - I prefer them that way). I quit eating HULLED raw sunflower seeds, because I had difficulty sprouting them, so they became questionable to me. I had some raw walnuts this year that a friend on the mainland picked up from under an old abandoned tree and brought to me. I don't even know what a "raw" cashew tastes like. I eat goji berries (labeled sundried). I only buy certified organic dates, and I try to buy only dates that the grower says are really raw.

I don't know if a person can get any more raw than that.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2006 05:19AM by Ally.

Hi Mike,

I just saw your post. I've never fermented my own veggies, so maybe I'll look into it. I used to like the kim chee you could get at the health food store, but then I noticed they took the word "raw" off their label, so I stopped buying it. Much thanks for the suggestion.

Best wishes, Ally

Hey Ally, that's cool i was just a bit shocked since I love salads so much!

Cheers,
J

> My eyes were half closed all the time because they were so swollen.

Well then, you must have multiple sensitivities. But still I wonder
if there are certain types of lettuces that would be more tolerable.
Maybe even iceberg.

Darn, it must be tough. I am not sure I could live without lettuces.

>maybe a couple of salads a week is just what I SHOULD be eating,
>since that's what makes me feel best! Impossible? An open mind
>is all I ask.

No, it's not impossible. Some people reach 100 without eating
vegetables. I do think it would be more difficult, however, since
greens have so much nutrition in so few calories. But it is
important to note that although fruits (and especially sweet
fruits) tend to be less nutrient-dense than vegetables, they
also tend to have greater bioavailability of the vitamins
and minerals that are present.

I would tend to choose the more nutrient-dense fruits in such
a case. By my calcs these are in descending order

bell pepper
guava
canteloupe
tomato
cucumber
strawberry
kiwi
mango
apricot
papaya
blackberry
pineapple
orange
tangerine
casaba

(ordered by nutrient density: sum of all rdas met for vitamins and mineral excluding B12 and D2 and divided by calories per 100 gm portion).

I bet you are already incorporating most of them in your diet!

Hey Jose and Arugula,

Thanks so much for your support and suggestions. This forum is just so great! The people on here are the BEST!

Much appreciation, -Ally

I have the contrary expereince, green leafy vegetables make me feel great.
I eat TWO OR THREE SALADS A DAY
Chickory

greens are very very very important. they contain all the necessary minerals that we need to be healthy. fruits and nuts do not contain the broad spectrum mineral base. if we look at our closest relative in the animal kingdom, the chimpanze, it has been observed that 40% of their diet come from greens, 50% fruits and a small percentage of insects. victoria boutenko has a FABULOUS radio show with a bunch of research backing this. check out www.rawveganradio.com.

peace!
m.

p.s.

the reason you may be unable to tolerate greens is due to a Hcl deficiency that is imperative to help digest green foods. by eating more greens, you body will actually begin to icrease Hcl production over time.

i hope this helps!

peace!
m.

Hi Chickory and m,

I take it you both don't think I should write a book that says too much vegetables are bad for you!

This post started out being a kind of spoof on the post "too much fruit". But I'm happy to be receiving some good info from the responses.

m, what is Hcl? Is it an enzyme? Can you give me a reference for more information? I try eating more vegetables and end up quitting everytime because I feel bad. I wonder how long it would take to increase the Hcl so that I could start to feel better when I eat vegetables. More information would help motivate me to stick with it. Sometimes I really crave vegetables, but I'm just scared to eat them! I can handle twice a week thankfully, but if I could do something to be able to handle eating veggies every day, I would do it.

Best wishes, -Ally

PS: I'm also going to check ryandvan's link to NAET from the "grains issues" link. Maybe the NAET thing could help me eat more veggies.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2006 11:25PM by Ally.

ally...

again, check out the interview with victoria boutenko on www.rawvegan.com. it's 54 minutes long...but it's worth it. she has done a lot of research on the matter after being raw for seven years and her whole family's health began to deteriorate (losing hair/graying hair, brittle nails, no energy, intense cravings). i think she has already published a book called "greens for life" that is research based and includes all the work she has done in this area.

Hcl (hydrochloric acid) is an acid produced by the stomach which aides in protein breakdown and mineral absorption. if you don't have enough, you will NOT be able to absorb nutrients/minerals from your food (no matter how clean or raw your diet is). Hcl can become depleted as we age, by poor diet (pre-raw), and by not eating enough greens. however, it can slowly be increased by eating greens. boutenko conducted a study (with a doctor) who tested Hcl levels before and after in a group that recieved greens for a 30 day period of time. they drank one green smoothie a day (example: a big bunch of greens blended with bananas/fruit and water). the results: the Hcl levels increased, on average, 66%. the more Hcl...the more you will benefit from all foods you eat. you can buy Hcl supplements...but i recommend just adding greens slowly into the diet and you'll naturally begin to tolerate them more.

perhaps instead of salads, you may be able to try blended green drinks. i like spinach blended with bananas, coconut water (or just water) and blueberries. i put tons of greens in my smoothie and can barely taste it because the fruit cancels out the "greenie/bitter" taste. some doctors in europe are starting to give their surgery patients green smoothies after surgery because it exponentially expedites the healing process!

i hope this helps!

peace!
m.

Thanks m.

Green smoothie. Hmm. I'm kind of old school about food combining, but it never hurts to give something new a try! Maybe I could start with one real small smoothie a day and slowly increase the greens.

Thanks again, -Ally

After reading your post and thinking about it overnight, I recall that my partner, who had not eaten many vegetables ( although she had been a vegan for twenty years) and had some serious illnesses before going raw, had a hard time digesting raw greens at first. It took several months of persistant eating of raw greens before she could tolerate them well.
I had a much easier time because I had always eaten a raw salad everyday, beginning in childhood.
My partner and I had speculated that the inability to digest greens is an indictation of illness and toxicity, and it may take some people a while of eating greens before they can get well enough to digest them.
As for your writing a book, people write all kinds of crap. One always has to read critically. I think your question is disingenuous, since you would know from past posts that many people have solidly good experiences with eating a high greens diet.
Chickory

Hi Ally! I GOT it from the beginning! So much for humor

I agree with m. that it is possible that you need to slowly up your greens and see what happens.

I posted once about drinking wheatgrass at the health food store and my husband walking gradually away because I would always start this " uk! Uk!" gagging thing. I can eat greens by the pound now and recently gave the old wheatgrass another try and did fine! I still can't say that I like it, (still tastes like licking the bottom of the lawn mower) but I can get it down and no gagging. Since I have been eating more greens, my sense of well-being and lightness and health and energy has greatly increased.

I think Victoria Boutenko helped many people take their health to the next level by encouraging green smoothies. Green, green, green, green,- while walking through Krogers, yesterday, I had a strange and powerful desire to stick my face right into the cilantro! Life is a Hoot!


Life Is Good!

alive!

There is frozen wheatgrass juice available at one of our local health food stores. What's the skinny on frozen wheatgrass? Is it a reasonable alternative for those of us who are not yet growing/juicing their own?

~K.

Hi alive!

I'm glad you understood my post meant no harm. Thanks alive! and chickory for your encouragement. I'm giving the veggies another try, just eating a little every day for starters. I also got some raw organic noni leather today (grown nearby so I know it's the real raw thing). It's supposed to be anti-inflamatory, so I thought that might help.

Chickory, I'm really sorry if I appeared disingenuous. I was just feebly attempting to make the point that if a high veggie diet (or a high fruit diet like mine with very few veggies) worked for one person, the exact same diet might not necessarily work for another. I really wasn't intending to write a book telling everyone to eat just like me. That was supposed to be a joke. Really! Again, sorry about that.

Maybe there was also some deep down thing inside that was telling me I should ask for help with my veggie problem. I usually just try to brush it aside and do the best I can. If I could eat veggies every day, that would be great!

Best wishes, -Ally

Hey Ally,

thanks for posting! Your experience is very valuable, says me!

:~) Adrienne Michelle

Ally,

Maybe you could give different kinds of vegetables a shot. I personally can't tolerate broccoli very well (for pretty obvious reasons). Try more mild vegetables like cucumbers and avocados, and maybe carrots. Although, when I eat a TON of carrots, my stomach goes crazy, and it all comes out looking like it did when it went in. ANYWAY, please eat more green stuff! Fruit has so much sugar! Even though it's natural, it's still excessive!

Arugula, I get a little paranoid about leafy vegetables. I love them, but every time I try to eat them, I swear, no matter how organic I think they are, I always think that I can taste chemicals. I need to just start growing my own so I can stop being so paranoid! Anyway, my default salad "base" is cucumber with red onion instead of lettuce. I know there are more mineral/nutrient-dense vegetables out there that I should use as a base, but at least cucumbers are very hydrating.

>I personally can't tolerate broccoli very well (for pretty obvious reasons).

Did you try it shredded? You might be ok with 1/4 cup of it at a time. But probably the same amount of broccoli sprouts will be easier to eat.

Much appreciation for your kind words Adrienne!

Hi monochromatism. You're right about avos and cucumbers. I never have a problem with them. My body seems to use them just like fruits. Even though they're green, avocados actually are botanically and horticulturally a fruit (they bear the seed). Cucumbers are botanically a fruit, but are classified by horticulturists as a vegetable because they don't grow on a perennial (The plant doesn't live 2 years).

One of my favorite dishes is avocado and cucumbers chopped up together with a squeeze of lemon juice. Mmmmmmm.

Best wishes, -Ally

Thanks for reminding me, Ally, that vegetables don't have a complete monopoly on green. I guess I was also assuming that you meant only sweet fruits, and I was clearly mistaken.

Well, for several days I've been eating vegetables every day (instead of about twice a week as usual). I'm still all raw (of course!) and also eating fruits and nuts/seeds like before. Smoothies make me kind of nauseous, so it's chew or nothing (sorry all you smoothie fans, that's just the way it is for me).

Here's some of the results from eating the veggies everyday:

GOOD: Yesterday I stood on my head for over 5 minutes and breathed through my nose the whole time. Usually my nose gets plugged up pretty quick from the gravity of being upside down, and I have to breathe through my mouth.

Fatigue and dry skin seem not as bad now as they were after the first few days of this experiment. But there's still more fatigue and dry skin than with my usual diet of veggies just twice a week.

I'm able to eat less fats from nuts/seeds when I eat more veggies.

BAD: My running is off. I was doing 6 miles pretty easily before eating veggies every day. Now, with veggies every day, I'm struggling to do 5 or 6 miles, and sometimes can't do that much. I'm also having more muscle pain, with longer recovery time, but that could be just that some new muscles are forming.

My eyes are really swollen. When I ate the veggies just twice a week, my eyes were swollen just during the morning after. Now my eyes are swollen all day long, and every day it's worse.

For the first time in YEARS, I'm somewhat constipated. I just don't have those really satisfying movements in the morning, even though I've been drinking lots of water, doing yoga, and running. This is definitely the most worrisome problem so far, since constipation is never a good thing IMO.

I'm getting heartburn when I run, but it goes away by the end of the run.

Occasional stomach pains.

CONCLUSIONS: The jury's still out. Today, I'm taking a break from it and doing a water fast. I'm kind of leaning toward maybe eating veggies every OTHER day. I haven't decided yet. I'll think about it today while I fast.

Chickory had mentioned that maybe an inability to digest greens is an indication of illness and toxicity. For me greens really became a problem when I had an ameba. During that time, I became so sensitive to greens, that I couldn't eat any kind of vegetable at all without immediately throwing it up. I've read it's somewhat common to retain food sensitivities even after an ameba is gone. I may just have to live with that.

If so, it would definitely not be the end of the world. I haven't made up my mind to discontinue this experiment, but I do feel really good on salads just a couple of days a week. Eating fruits and nuts/seeds every day doesn't bother me at all like it seems to bother some people. I do love veggies though.

It may be that for whatever reason, some people thrive best on more of one type of food, while other people thrive best on more of another - even as raw food vegans. IMO except during some health crisis, everyone would be healthiest if they ate SOME fruit, SOME greens, SOME nuts/seeds, and even SOME sprouted grains. Each of those foods may have some as yet undiscovered purpose in our diets. But that is based on MY experience (so far), and so much is yet to be known about food.

As for Victoria Boutenko's experience with food, her diet now is I'm sure a lot better than it was when she was SAD, and I'm sure she FEELS a lot better too. I'm glad so many people have been helped by what she's written. I have the impression though (from her pictures) that if she were getting more exercise, she would feel even better. I think I'm possibly older than she is (since her children are younger than mine), but my own step is probably lighter and stronger. That's at least partly due to a lot of outdoor physical exercise. And I also really have to give credit to eating - and growing - a lot of good organic FRUIT. All that lovely organically grown water from the fruit washing through me, then the wonderful cooling sweat washing over me while I'm working outside under the hot and healing sun. I LOVE to sweat. I think one sign of really good health is when sweating and working hard feels really good. And then the cycle continues with the work and sweat making you even healthier. Without that, I don't believe anyone is as healthy as they COULD be. When healthy sweat washes over you, it's not at all like sweating unhealthy stuff full of gummy toxins. It's like taking a nice clean shower.

Well no, I'll never write a book saying that everyone should eat just like me. But neither will I ever stop doing what makes me feel good and strong and healthy JUST because someone else wrote a book saying everyone should eat like them!

That said, books all have their place. I believe everyone has something to teach and something to learn. I'm still learning, and I hope to learn more and more every single day.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2006 08:59PM by Ally.

Ally,

Thank you so much for your post.

It is such a great reminder that what works for one person may not work for the next and we must all remember this.

Also, you're spirit is so beautiful in that you can recognize individuality and maintain the desire to find what works best for you, makes you feel well, and allows your body to be healthy. It sounds as though you have learned to seethe pitcher half full, rather than half empty, I love your optomism.


Chrissy

Thanks much Chrissy!

Very interesting thread.

I think that if whatever you're doing seems to be working and you feel great, then keep doing it. Your body I'm sure will let you know when it's time to make a change.

Btw how does one get an amoeba? sounds scary.