Utopian, I entered your first day on Nutrition data, to see if there was a difference with fitday. I noticed the calories and macronutrients were virtually the same, but some of the micronutrients differed greatly.

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Seems my message didnt go through like i said,
> > utopian if you do truly eat that id be suprised
> > that your thyroid hasnt shut down with 15 cups
> of
> > goitrogenic vegetables.
> >
> > this isnt getting at you anyway, but with no
> > iodine/seaweed to balance i find it had to
> believe
> > you really consume the above because without a
> > doubt eventually id put money on that it would
> > shut your thyroid down. I know those who have
> > consumed kale chips alone and this happened let
> > alone 15 cups of goitrogenic vegetables.
>
>
> Man its not that hard to belive. Theres tons of
> people everywere who consume massive amounts of
> drugs and they don't just keel over. Most people
> buy produce from all over the world, so theres no
> reason to assume her food is void of Iodine.
> Theres one good way to test thyroid, and thats a
> basal temperature test.
>
> BTW Utopian, way to go for upholding the value of
> low fat raw. The digestive ease of eating low
> fat, allows someone to load up on fruits and
> greens, and consequently micronutrients. Your
> breakdown highlights one of the main premeises of
> 80/10/10 that people don't understand. You don't
> need to eat certain foods for certain nutrients
> when eating properly (alot of fruits and greens)
> b12 and D notwithstanding. Congrats for eating
> lots of greens which many people drop the ball on
> when they eat lfrv or talk about 80/10/10



thanks, yes, I agree workout man, that greens are so important.

powerlifer, i understand and respect that you have health issues. please also respect that i do not. your concern was stated at least 10 times already in response to my posts, that you think it's not possible i could be healthy or without thyroid issues. really, i have an excellent memory, and i remember the first time you stated it.

WorkoutMan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian, I entered your first day on Nutrition
> data, to see if there was a difference with
> fitday. I noticed the calories and macronutrients
> were virtually the same, but some of the
> micronutrients differed greatly.


ok, can you pm me the ones that differed greatly and i'll do a third nutrition calculator to see?

I dont have any health issues i have had past thyroid issues but nothing to do with goitrogens. But i have first hand seen the effect of high consumption of various goitrogenic foods on others thyroid health a few examples come in mind, those consuming large amounts of flax, those juicing large amounts of raw goitrogenic vegetables and then ones eating large amounts and this applies to healthy people also but obviously those with current thyroid problems it is more prevalent.

You must be one of the lucky few as like i say consuming that high intake of goitrogens will eventually mess with your thyroid. I know you remembered but in the case of this thread maybe someone like the original poster didnt know these things. Im not saying this to refresh your memory there are others new to raw who might not even know what a goitrogen is.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 03:53PM by powerlifer.

Thyroid problems isnt the only problem associated with excessive kale consumption.

here is a study i believe - [www.ithyroid.com] that shows excessive kale consumption can cause anemia.

That considerable level of oxalates can also cause problems. Im all for kale its a brilliant nutritious vegetable but i dont think excess of it is healthy.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:00PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thyroid problems isnt the only problem associated
> with excessive kale consumption.
>
> here is a study i believe -
> [www.ithyroid.com] that shows
> excessive kale consumption can cause anemia.
>
> That considerable level of oxalates can also cause
> problems. Im all for kale its a brilliant
> nutritious vegetables but i dont think excess of
> it is healthy.



That's interesting....have you concluded that I have 'excessive' (in your opinion) kale consumption based on two days' worth of food? And what constitutes 'excessive' - I see it's not defined? Are you comparing me to the average person who has trouble eating even 5 servings of fruit & veg? Sorry, I don't want to be compared to the average, I don't desire to be average.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:07PM by Utopian Life.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thyroid problems isnt the only problem
> associated
> > with excessive kale consumption.
> >
> > here is a study i believe -
> > [www.ithyroid.com] that
> shows
> > excessive kale consumption can cause anemia.
> >
> > That considerable level of oxalates can also
> cause
> > problems. Im all for kale its a brilliant
> > nutritious vegetables but i dont think excess
> of
> > it is healthy.
>
>
>
> That's interesting....have you concluded that I
> have 'excessive' (in your opinion) kale
> consumption based on two days' worth of food?

If you are eating 15 cups of these daily like i said then that is excessive, i didnt suggest you were but like i say if you are eating that daily or even frequently your going to have problems. You provided 2 days menu as you wrote even then i would suggest that is excessive how do you manage to meet your nutritional needs without the chard and kale, add in 40 cups of romaine?

The macro and nutritional analysis you provided wouldn't even look that great if you took the kale and chard out. Which account for around 30g of the protein or more aswell as a massive portion of the nutrients as kale is very nutritious and twice as rich in protein as other greens.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:10PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > powerlifer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Thyroid problems isnt the only problem
> > associated
> > > with excessive kale consumption.
> > >
> > > here is a study i believe -
> > > [www.ithyroid.com] that
> > shows
> > > excessive kale consumption can cause anemia.
> > >
> > > That considerable level of oxalates can also
> > cause
> > > problems. Im all for kale its a brilliant
> > > nutritious vegetables but i dont think excess
> > of
> > > it is healthy.
> >
> >
> >
> > That's interesting....have you concluded that I
> > have 'excessive' (in your opinion) kale
> > consumption based on two days' worth of food?
>
> If you are eating 15 cups of these daily like i
> said then that is excessive, i didnt suggest you
> were but like i say if you are eating that daily
> or even frequently your going to have problems.
> Again you just hover over the points in the post
> and never really answer them.
>
> The macro and nutritional analysis you provided
> wouldn't even look that great if you took the kale
> and chard out. Which account for around 30g of the
> protein or more aswell as a massive portion of the
> nutrients as kale is very nutritious.



"your going to have problems." Really? Since you're stating things so conclusively, let me ask you, how long would it be before I would have problems? I'll have you know I've been eating what you term "excessive" (what I term "healthy" amounts of some of the vegetables on your ithyroid link for almost ten years. Been athletic that whole time. Ate fruits that whole time. Got plenty of rest and sun. Not a single problem health-wise.

How long would vary on a number of factors a major one being what your daily iodine intake is like to counteract these goitrogens. Plus other thyroid suppressors you encounter in life. High intake of phyto-estrogens can also mess with thyroid function.

You've took the link out of context im not saying avoid these foods on the list some of them are the most healthy foods we can eat such as kale. But an excessive consumption in studies has shown well the above induced anemia or known as kale poisioning and like all brassica family vegetables/goitrogen veg interfere with thyroid function. Same goes for high consumption of flax seed and other goitrogenic food it isnt that hard. For most this is no issue at all as they either eat them cooked(inactivates) or not in large enough amounts to cause any issue.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:16PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You've took the link out of context im not saying
> avoid these foods on the list some of them are the
> most healthy foods we can eat such as kale.


I didn't say you said to avoid them. I'm saying what you term "excessive" is an opinion, and you are merely expressing an opinion here, one of which was stated as fact, "you're going to have problems," and the scare-mongering is a little.....well, "excessive." Esp. considering how long I've been vegan/raw and healthy. You can state all day long that I'm going to encounter problems, but speculation and conjecture isn't going to help anyone. I have told you in other posts on this forum and others that I do get iodine in my diet. I don't know why that part is conveniently ignored at times. Did you forget that I was the one who told you about iodine? We had an extensive conversation about it.

That's... a lot of kale. Wow. Do you chew it all up or are you blending it?
I can't imagine eating that much of any one thing. Does it still taste good to you after eating a bunch or do you have to force it down?
Just curious.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > You've took the link out of context im not
> saying
> > avoid these foods on the list some of them are
> the
> > most healthy foods we can eat such as kale.
>
>
> I didn't say you said to avoid them. I'm saying
> what you term "excessive" is an opinion, and you
> are merely expressing an opinion here, one of
> which was stated as fact, "you're going to have
> problems," and the scare-mongering is a
> little.....well, "excessive." Esp.
> considering how long I've been vegan/raw and
> healthy. You can state all day long that I'm
> going to encounter problems, but speculation and
> conjecture isn't going to help anyone. I have
> told you in other posts on this forum and others
> that I do get iodine in my diet. I don't know why
> that part is conveniently ignored at times. Did
> you forget that I was the one who told you about
> iodine? We had an extensive conversation about
> it.

You told me about iodine lol what? I have known about the mineral iodine since i went to high school. No one is saying your not getting iodine bleh this is like talking to a wall. What im saying is that your going to need a massive iodine intake to offset that amount of kale/chard which i think anyone would agree is pretty excessive intake of goitrogens.

Out of interest how many days of your week do you eat 15 cups of these goitrogens and when you dont how do you make up the macronutrient content because the only reason those 2 days look so good is because of the high intake of kale and latterly the chard?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:29PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > powerlifer Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > You've took the link out of context im not
> > saying
> > > avoid these foods on the list some of them
> are
> > the
> > > most healthy foods we can eat such as kale.
> >
> >
> > I didn't say you said to avoid them. I'm
> saying
> > what you term "excessive" is an opinion, and
> you
> > are merely expressing an opinion here, one of
> > which was stated as fact, "you're going to have
> > problems," and the scare-mongering is a
> > little.....well, "excessive." Esp.
> > considering how long I've been vegan/raw and
> > healthy. You can state all day long that I'm
> > going to encounter problems, but speculation
> and
> > conjecture isn't going to help anyone. I have
> > told you in other posts on this forum and
> others
> > that I do get iodine in my diet. I don't know
> why
> > that part is conveniently ignored at times.
> Did
> > you forget that I was the one who told you
> about
> > iodine? We had an extensive conversation about
> > it.
>
> You told me about iodine lol what? I have known
> about the mineral iodine since i went to high
> school. No one is saying your not getting iodine
> bleh this is like talking to a wall. What im
> saying is that your going to need a massive iodine
> intake to offset that amount of kale/chard which i
> think anyone would agree is pretty excessive
> intake of goitrogens.
>
> Out of interest how many days of your week do you
> eat 15 cups of these goitrogens and when you dont
> how do you make up the macronutrient content
> because the only reason those 2 days look so good
> is because of the high intake of kale and latterly
> the chard?



Actually, the most common greenery I eat is spring mix (which is also high in nutrients) and spinach. Every day, every week is different, depending on availability, season, time. I also love romaine and sometimes arugula. I don't discriminate on my greens.

I guess you forgot about the iodine conversations on two different message boards..... *sigh* That's all right, I'll keep repeating too.

And you're assuming again that the macros are so high due to one reason (or two reasons: kale and chard). I get enough calories every single day, it's quite easy to get enough nutrients. I had a dinner one time of zucchini marinara, and it provided all of the necessary nutrients (micros and macros) that I needed, and that was just one meal.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:36PM by Utopian Life.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's... a lot of kale. Wow. Do you chew it all
> up or are you blending it?
> I can't imagine eating that much of any one thing.
> Does it still taste good to you after eating a
> bunch or do you have to force it down?
> Just curious.


I LOVE kale. Normally for the salads that I chew, I will use dinosaur kale (also called lacinato). If I have curly kale or purple kale, I might put a few handfuls in a green smoothie. Keep in mind that I'm an athlete, so I might be eating more calories overall than you do. It's really not a big deal to eat a 10-cup salad, though, it takes like 15 min. or so. I do like the taste of kale. Last night I had a kale salad with romaine and mint, basil, and temple orange. It was maybe 6 cups of kale and 4 cups of romaine. It took about 10 min. to eat and I enjoyed it. (I also workout about 1 hour - 2 hours per day and work full-time, I'm not an alien or have green skin )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:34PM by Utopian Life.

I dont discriminate on my greens either i eat large amounts of the non-goitrogenic greens daily to supplement my fruit intake. I often juice normal amounts of various goitrogenic ones such as broccoli, kale and spinach.

To make up similar macro levels though your going to need to be taking in at least 15 cups or more of these greens correct? Being that kale is much richer in protein and nutrients than most other greens. So on the days of romaine etc how many cups are you needing around 40 cups for similar intake? I wouldnt like to see the level of oxalates for 15 cups of spinach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:40PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I dont discriminate on my greens either i eat
> large amounts of the non-goitrogenic greens daily
> to supplement my fruit intake. I often juice
> normal amounts of various goitrogenic ones such as
> broccoli, kale and spinach.
>
> To make up similar macro levels though your going
> to need to be taking in at least 15 cups or more
> of these greens correct? Being that kale is much
> richer in protein and nutrients than most other
> greens. So on the days of romaine etc how many
> cups are you needing around 40 cups for similar
> intake? I wouldnt like to see the level of
> oxalates for 15 cups of spinach.


Can you say which macros you're referring to? Are you talking about protein? I have never eaten 40 cups of romaine, LOL Like I alluded to prior, my zucchini marinara meal provided 65 g. of protein (it wasn't eaten all at once, but it was one dinner; sometimes I split it, so it's 32 g. of protein each night). I also get protein from other items, like sweet fruits, and everything I eat. My breakfast of fruit normally has 12 g. of protein.

If you're not referring to protein, can you tell me what it is you're referring to? Thanks. It will be easier to respond.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:45PM by Utopian Life.

Oh, ok. I personally don't love kale but I do like spinach and lettuces a lot. Even so, I can't see eating that much of them. A green smoothie, a salad, a blended soup or lettuce leaf wrap and some dip with veggie sticks and that's about all the vegetables I can eat in a day. My taste buds just say no after a while.

The 2 sample days you posted on the other page, the macros look good but really only for the reason because of the high amounts of kale and chard. Kale has around twice as much protein as other greens such as romaine. Its not even the protein its also the nutritional analysis overall, kale is very rich in nutrients compared to other greens.

But off that point i would be severely interested in your recipe for zucchini marinara that would provide 65g of protein in one meal alone. How big is this meal in a box lol?

Im not debating the protein here theres amino acids/protein in every food but what im saying is around half or more on those 2 sample days you provided come from the kale and chard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:50PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The 2 sample days you posted on the other page,
> the macros look good but really only for the
> reason because of the high amounts of kale and
> chard. Kale has around twice as much protein as
> other greens such as romaine. Its not even the
> protein its also the nutritional analysis overall,
> kale is very rich in nutrients compared to other
> greens.
>
> But off that point i would be severely interested
> in your recipe for zucchini marinara that would
> provide 65g of protein in one meal alone. How big
> is this meal in a box lol?
>
> Im not debating the protein here theres amino
> acids/protein in every food but what im saying is
> around half or more on those 2 sample days you
> provided come from the kale and chard.



Yeah, that's fine, but keep in mind that I don't just eat greens.

The zucchini recipe is easy (it's probably too much food for you, if the greens are too much, but you could definitely cut it down).

It's DEEEElicious! I always get fresh(er) sundried tomatoes with no salt added. And I add a Brazil nut in the blend usually.

It's 8 large zucchini squash, 5 cups tomatoes, 2 cups sundried tomatoes, 1 red bell pepper, 1 yellow bell pepper, 6 dates, 2 celery stalks, tangerine, 1 c. basil, 3 T. fresh oregano.

You spiralize the zucchini (when you're ready to eat it, don't spiral it beforehand), and blend the rest except for 2 cups of tomatoes, which I like to add in for texture at the end.

I put that into a nutritional calculator, it's about 1,560 calroies, 65.6 g. of protein, 18 g. of fat. That might be your whole food for the day if you eat less calories than I.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 04:59PM by Utopian Life.

Nothing is too much food for me i can eat and eat like no tomorrow. Ive been bodybuilding for around 8 years or something most days i reckon i take in an average of 4000+ calories and that's not including any of the raw food in my diet such as the large intake of fruit and the greens that accompany most of my other food. Which probably make up another 1000-2000 calories.

I can eat crazy amounts of food trust me but the ones i do i pick wisely and way up the anti-nutrients they contain.

That sounds good the zucchini squash but id probably need to see how big the overall food is for me to judge. I mean is this something you can eat easily in 1 sitting? Something strikes me as odd with how much protein there is any idea where the bulk of its coming from? Zucchini contain around 2g protein dont they?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2011 05:02PM by powerlifer.

That recipe sounds yummy, Utopian Life--never seen one with citrus fruit mixed in, but that makes sense

I know, having given myself iodine deficiency from too many cruciferi in the recent past, that as long as I'm eating my kale--which I looooooove--with parsley[OK source of iodine], from growers in Cali as opposed to the Midwest[iodine rich vs iodine poor soil], and supplementing with water soluble iodine, I suffer no ill effects from a few pounds of from kale or other brassicas every week.

powerlifer is right, though, that newbies will likely be unaware of the leafy greens--->iodine uptake connection and that, speaking from experience, could cause serious health problems for them.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing is too much food for me i can eat and eat
> like no tomorrow. Ive been bodybuilding for around
> 8 years or something most days i reckon i take in
> an average of 4000+ calories and that's not
> including any of the raw food in my diet such as
> the large intake of fruit and the greens that
> accompany most of my other food. Which probably
> make up another 1000-2000 calories.
>
> I can eat crazy amounts of food trust me but the
> ones i do i pick wisely and way up the
> anti-nutrients they contain.
>
> That sounds good the zucchini squash but id
> probably need to see how big the overall food is
> for me to judge. I mean is this something you can
> eat easily in 1 sitting? Something strikes me as
> odd with how much protein there is any idea where
> the bulk of its coming from? Zucchini contain
> around 2g protein dont they?



Hey. One medium zucchini is 2.4 g. of protein. I got 8 large zucchini and put it in, for 31 g. of protein. The fresh tomatoes also provide 8 g. and the sundried provide 15 g. Plus the misc. other foods.

I'd say 2 large zucchini spiralized plus 1/4 of the sauce is a nice bowl of pasta meal. And then I would eat maybe an hour later again and so on. Depending on the time of the night I started the nonsweet fruit intake (because this wouldn't combine well with sweet fruit digestively) depends on how much more I'd eat. But definitely at least half the recipe per night, maybe more.

Good to hear that you like to eat!

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That recipe sounds yummy, Utopian Life--never seen
> one with citrus fruit mixed in, but that makes
> sense
>
> I know, having given myself iodine deficiency from
> too many cruciferi in the recent past, that as
> long as I'm eating my kale--which I
> looooooove--with parsley, from growers in Cali as
> opposed to the Midwest, and supplementing with
> water soluble iodine, I suffer no ill effects from
> a few pounds of from kale or other brassicas every
> week.
>
> powerlifer is right, though, that newbies will
> likely be unaware of the leafy greens--->iodine
> uptake connection and that, speaking from
> experience, could cause serious health problems
> for them.


Yeah, that recipe is fabulous, most of the "raw" ones I see have salt and oil added. This one tastes so fresh and light!!!

I love parsley.

I'm glad people are aware of the iodine being a potential issue.....

It is quite easily done tamukha, getting off the goitrogenic greens alone, if you look at the gourmet raw recipes quite alot of them are very flax dependent, i know personally of two people around my way who suffered thyroid problems due to high intake of flax.

Parsley is also supportive to both the adrenal glands and thyroid. I like to juice a little of it aswell as include in some meals.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is quite easily done tamukha, getting off the
> goitrogenic greens alone, if you look at the
> gourmet raw recipes quite alot of them are very
> flax dependent, i know personally of two people
> around my way who suffered thyroid problems due to
> high intake of flax.
>
> Parsley is also supportive to both the adrenal
> glands and thyroid. I like to juice a little of it
> aswell as include in some meals.


yeah, parsley is nice in a juice.

*drools* that sauce sounds amazing...its making me hungry...mmmmmm... saving it for when the farmers market starts up again!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Even if the other produce had traces or small
> levels of iodine i find it still hard to believe
> 15 cups of goitrogenic vegetables wouldn't slow
> your thyroid down over time. Even with generous
> iodine intake id still wedge my bets that 15 cups
> daily would mess with your thyroid function
> eventually. This doesnt just apply to these
> goitrogenic greens, try 15 cups of flax a day and
> id bet the same result.
>
> Anyway im not sure what those taking massive
> amounts drugs has to do with any of the above.
>
> People deserve to know both sides of the coin
> though if there delving into raw incase possible
> complications occur.

My understanding is that gointrogens are only an issue for the thyroid where iodine intake is inadequate. Is that your understanding as well, PL?

Paul

In a sense yeah Paul, that if you have sufficient dietary intake goitrogens dont pose much if any of an issue. Goitrogens interfere with the thyroids uptake of iodine. But when we start to take in like was suggested on the other page 15 cups of raw goitrogenic vegetables or crazy amounts of flax etc, how much iodine we'd need to balance that out is pretty much unknown and id say that amount is excessive but each to there own.

I also reckon it would depend if you were splitting this 15 cups through out the day also in that case all day you would be consuming substances which are interfering with the uptake of iodine.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 04:06PM by powerlifer.