Bryan makes it very clear (to none whose consciousnes is not befooged by mucus, casein-opiate, and factory-farming and slaughterhouse insensitivity) that this board is for the discussion of raw veganism. Discussion of supporting the killing and abuse of other sentients wih your dietary should be carried on elswhere, if that's what you do.

where does Bryan make this clear? I haven't read the board requirements for a very long time.

I have already apologized for discussing "non-vegan" topics and had said I did not realize this was a vegan board.

That being said, I also think it would be helpful for some of us non-vegans to be able to discuss those topics without personal attacks because some of us are still in the transition period. Did the vegans on this board go straight to being vegan, without any transition perod? How do we ask questions, and move towards becoming vegan if we are not able to even discuss anything?

There are a few vegans on this board who have been extremely helpful to me without attacking me, and I appreciate that very much. And those people know who they are because I sent them pm's thanks them for that.

Do I really need to go find a different forum until I am a vegan, if I decide to make that choice, and then am I allowed back on this forum? Seems a bit silly to me.

Yogamama... people have been discussing non-vegan issues on here for a long time... maybe I missed bryan saying it's a vegan board...

Yogamama,

I hear you but and I have empathy but I can't sympathesize. I did go straight to vegan over twenty years ago. I read one book, Animal Rights by Peter Singer that forever changed my life. I understand that some folks need to ask questions but perhaps this is not the right website for you. I know there are a few transitional websites that may be more forgiving but some folks here get quite upset because this site does say that is is a vegan website on the agreement that you accept when you first create an account here. I myself am a bit more forgiving because we go through different stages of veganism, atleast those that go vegan for ethical reasons. There is an "Other Topics Not Health Related" forum thread. People post just about anything over there but, if you want, I'm more than happy to point you to a few websites that are a bit more forgiving.

Cheers,

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

Even the OT board is a Vegan board. It specifically states - no animal products. I understand that many people are coming to a living and raw foods lifestyle from a SAD standpoint. I understand that most of us transition rather than jump from SAD to 100% Raw Vegan. However, this is a VEGAN forum. Not a forum to debate, explain or defend Vegan - Vegan is a given here.

There are other sites that offer the opportunity to debate the issue. I don't think anyone should have to go somewhere else to post about raw issues.

My suggestion: Go vegan for a year. Then nobody will need to explain it - you'll GET it.

Life Is Good!

alive!

Thanks, marcos and alive. I completely understand what you are saying. I guess I didn't realize this was a vegan board because when I first came on here and started posting, I did see other posts that were not vegan. So, I just assumed it was ok to discuss those things. And I don't seem to be the only one that was not aware that the discussion of non-vegan topics was so taboo on here. Honestly, it's just a little different than a lot of the other sites out there. For example, I belong to a Buddhist site, and tons of people that are not yet Buddhist come on there and discuss other "religions", and all are welcome. We don't tell people "sorry, you need to go find another forum if you are going to discuss Christianity".

So do all of the members here that are not vegan need to go find another board, or can we come on here to discuss raw food topics, as long as we do not comment on non-vegan issues? I have been to other sites, and have found a few that I like, but I also like this one.

I am not interested in discussing or debating the issue of whether or not to be a vegan, nor would I ever personally attack anyone for being vegan. I am on here to discuss raw food, and have already stated that I will no longer discuss non-vegan topics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2006 08:00PM by Yogamama.

I went vegan overnight One day I was eating SAD, that evening I read about veganism on the UK Vegetarian Society's website, I could actually stand the idea of animals being killed (we all die) but it was the horrible living conditions that got to me, the next day I was eating vegan.

It is hard to avoid dairy and sometimes eggs in social situations though. I think it is better to bend a little rather than possibly make it too hard to eat vegan and burn out.

There I just discussed eating animal products. Is that what you mean by discussing animal product or do you want to get into more specifics like food preparation?

That was basically all I ever said...was that I drink raw goats milk and sometimes eat eggs. I hadn't realized that would be so offensive to some, so I apologized. I certainly never eat meat or any other animal products. Just the raw milk and an egg every now and then.

Over at the Funky Raw website we have a raw food forum which is not vegan...

[www.funkyraw.com]

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

That's great! I'm sorry if I jumped on you. I eat milk and eggs like I said sometimes in social situations (think: someone bought me birthday cake, I get cookies when I visit someone) it's just easier, I don't get into discussions with them (people think I'm wierd when I tell them I'm vegetarian, I don't want to push the issue). I never really felt I should bring up my non-vegan eating on raw boards though, if I make a reference to them in a food diary (on another board) I would call them "unmentionables" so as not to offend or tempt anyone.

Thanks, Rob. I will check it out.

And Lillianswan, you never jumped on me at all. Thanks for the tip about just saying "unmentionables" - LOL. I like that and I am sure I will use it! I am fairly new to this whole raw foods thing, and I just didn't know that most raw foodists were vegan. Now I know!

I think nonvegans who respect that this is a vegan forum should be welcome. IMO nonvegans could show respect by not submitting posts that attempt to justify being nonvegan and especially by not submitting posts that suggest that others should eat nonvegan foods. That's when people feel they have to debate the vegan issue. And as alive! has stated, "Vegan is a given here".

I also think it's very appropriate and probably helpful for vegans on the forum to suggest alternative forums for nonvegans.

On the post called "I don't know what to think anymore", Bryan said he was not vegan when he first came on this forum, but he did not "push his non-vegan foods". Now that Yogamama knows this is a raw forum, she seems willing to show the same respect that Bryan showed when he first came here. IMO if that's so, she should be able to stay.

Best wishes, -Ally

Shouldn't non-vegans be afforded the same protections as vegans? I think it's pretty unfair that non-vegans are subject to attacks and non-positive/non-supportive pressure to change when you/we are all "don't attack the vegans, don't tell us to change" and such.

I'm RAW before VEGAN, and personally I'm way more ticked off when people discuss cooked foods and medical issues which have no bearing on raw foods. Of course we don't see people jumping down their throat with the standard vegan guilt trip stuff.... The fact this thread is "This is a VEGAN board" rather than "This is a RAW VEGAN board" is annoying, I certainly wouldn't post here if it was a "vegan board". ;-)

We're all equal, right?

Ian.

Hi sodoffsocks,

I agree that no one should be subject to attacks. Not vegans, not nonvegans.

I agree that we're all equal.

IMO if a raw nonvegan OR a cooked fooder comes to a raw vegan forum and expresses their PREFERENCE FOR or BELIEF IN cooked or nonvegan foods, they shouldn't be surprised if their views are countered by raw vegan views. And they shouldn't be surprised if people wonder why they are posting their nonvegan or nonraw views on a raw vegan website. And yes, some people might even ask them to leave, since the rules of the forum state that this is a raw vegan forum. That shouldn't come as a surprise either.

I think most vegan responders are not meaning anything personal. They just wish to express their beliefs as well, and they are concerned that the website doesn't become a debating ground for vegan vs. nonvegan. There's already (surprisingly) enough to debate about just around raw vegan issues! Cooked food is naturally not as ofensive to many raw vegans as nonvegan food.

Unfortunately sometimes people get carried away and make personal attacks. That can happen over an issue that has nothing to do with being vegan or nonvegan. If a person consistently makes verbal attacks against others for any reason, then they should probably get booted out.

If a person wishes for this forum to become a raw food forum rather than a raw vegan forum, they might have more success if they discussed that with the moderators. Most of the raw food vegans who post here probably prefer that the forum continue as a raw vegan forum.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2006 12:29AM by Ally.

What does SAD stand for as in "SAD diet"?

Hi Vegan Life,

I believe SAD means Standard American Diet.

Hi again sodoffsocks!

In case you weren't aware of this, I just thought I'd add that if you or anyone feels they've been personally attacked on this forum, you can report the offending post to the moderators by clicking "Report This Message". Then you can add a message to the moderators about why you object to the post, and you can ask the moderators to delete the post or bar the member from the forum. It's of course up to the moderators to decide if they agree.

Best wishes, -Ally

Hi Ally,

you put things very well. I think the raw vs vegan issues are different as well. I can understand that people are very passionate about animal welfare, and it's a given that most commercially produced animal products are produced putting profit before animals (and the humans that consume them) welfare. Which leads to people passionately presenting there version of how people should act, even after the other person has asked them to stop. I've seen this behavoir from other people on other topics, like the colon washers, believing passionately that everybody should do what they do (I can still find no real reasons that colon washing is related to raw vegan foods).

When I was refering to 'attacks', the thing I was mainly thinking of guilt laiden posts about commercial kept animals (which also has little to do with raw veganism or the person consuming the product - their beef, excute the pun, is really with the producers, so they can open thier own farms and do things right to fix the problem). When I see people being placed in awkward situations, I will counter, even if I don't agree with their position (but I agree with their right to not agree with my position).

Anyway, I love this board and the people who post to it, even the ones I completely disagree with. As much I wish everybody on it was 100% raw and 100% vegan, I'll take what I can get and do my best to avoid pursecuting those who aren't.

Peace, love and happyness,
Ian.

Threads like this make me sad as they make those of us that are not 100% raw vegan every day feel unwelcome. This is especially true after months of reading posts that included mention of cooked food and even some from people that are still eating meat. The VAST majority of posts I have read have been honest, caring and offered helpful advice. Honestly, I was shocked to sign on and see this thread. I have seen posts about Maya bars, Tofu, Steamed Vegetables, Cashews, Honey etc etc and have learned a ton from many of you. Is this not "discussion"? Is discussion not what forums are about?

Of course, I would not bring my meatloaf recipe to this forum (not that I could dig it up anymore , but if I use yoghurt to help my intestines at times or have a soy chai once a week am I not welcome? If someone asks "what do you eat in a day?" am I banned from posting? I recently went through a "down" few weeks where I was more like 70% raw instead of my usual 99%. If I see someone post about a similar experience am I welcome to share what I have learned these two weeks, or shun them for not being "on track"?

I don't ask ANYONE to eat like I do and expect the same from others. You can't be in my body and I can't be in yours. I applaud anyone who is pursuing health in any way and it seems that the people here are doing that. That is why I have admired so many of you and even sometimes asked for advice.

Thanks to those of you in this thread that have posted a more tolerant viewpoint. It seems that "judgement" from any angle is counter productive. I do hope I am still welcome, but will tread carefully from now on.

What we have here are some ill-informed non-vegans who invent these mythologies to justify their personal choices, who then construe information as "attack."

Well, don't shoot the messenger! I didn't make these ugly realities.

And when such informed people become flippant (responses with "LOL" it shows they don't get it. Such people should watch the DVD "Earthlings." Maybe then they will get it.

I don't care to see such flippancy and disregard for suffering on a vegan forum. Let them post and interact on the 99.8% of the nutrition forums that aren't vegan. I'd rather have a safe haven where I don't have to constantly be confronted with such ugliness.

OK...what I really think we need here is a moderator to tell us whether or not non-vegans are welcome, as long as they follow the "rules" (whatever those may be) or this dicussion will go on and on...and on...and on...and on......

And really...this world would be a very boring place if we all had the same views and beliefs. This world would also be a MUCH better place if people were just a little more tolerant of other peoples differences and quit trying to shove their beliefs down other peoples throats.

First and foremost, I am a compassionate human being. I would like to think that all of us on here are. And once you take away all the labels that we carry (raw foodist, vegan, vegetarian, etc), aren't we all pretty close to the same??? It's all the labels that we carry and our attachments to those labels that cause so many issues.

I look upon on-line forums as a microcosm. They are a little world within the larger and are therefore great "places" to practice dealing with the world at large. I am never in favor of heavy moderation nor of excluding anyone lightly from an on-line community. There are exceptions. There are those who "troll" on-line forums for the express purpose of stirring sh**t and occasionally they either must be ignored or booted off. But this is relatively rare.

Most people who frequent on-line forums based on certain principles or lifestyles are sincerely looking for change in their own lives and education/information concerning those changes. Often these people will at first present a more defensive face while they deal with their own resistence to the changes that are calling from within them. Meanwhile they are being influenced, one way or the other, and the communities patience and compassion can tilt the scales as to which way.

An example in my own life may serve to illumine my point. My brother who has been suffering some health problems would literally get up and leave the room if I began talking about the benefits of a raw, whole foods diet, juicing, blending and other techniques of healing food preparation. I interpreted his behavior as hostile and defensive and even felt hurt by it. Last night, during a family gathering, he rather casually mentioned that he considered buying a juicer and began asking questions as to what fruits and veggies could be juiced and what blended and etc. I ended up sending him home with a spare basket juicer I had on hand so that he could experiment! Hallaleujah!

In my opinion it is always a mistake to insulate oneself from people who are not "like" you. We are all essentially the same. We all start from where we are in our lives to make changes toward becoming. Our healing is the worlds healing; our health is the worlds health; our wisdom is not our own, but needs to be shouted from the streets because the whole creation groans in dire need of it. What good comes from only preaching to the choir? Besides, its only the ego that is deluded into believing that certain practices or lifestyles make one superior to others.The Self knows better.

Just my two,

Kathleen

Chill out please, there is no need to attack people on here. I don't mind discussing a few non vegan issues on here, esspecially to help people who are transitioning, not everyone goes vegan overnight. I went vegetarian first, then vegan, then raw.
You could have simply stated your concerns without attacking people who are not vegan, or not vegan yet. No need for such hostility.

Who are you referring to, jadedshade? I hope you didn't think I was attacking anyone.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What we have here are some ill-informed non-vegans
> who invent these mythologies to justify their
> personal choices.

Are comments like that REALLY necessary? Do they really do anyone any good?

> What we have here are some ill-informed non-vegans who
> invent these mythologies to justify their personal choices,
> who then construe information as "attack."

I consider this an attack on non-vegans.

> Well, don't shoot the messenger! I didn't make these ugly realities.

arugula! Do you not realize how many animals you hurting and killing by your inactions? I can't believe you are so insensitive towards animals. By not going out and starting you own farm to provide people curuality free milk and eggs you causing the deaths of many animals! you are causing them to live in terriable conditions! It's horriable! Those poor male chickens that are not being saved, all because you won't start a farms! You like it?

Cheers,
Ian.
P.S.: Arugula, I'm only joking. But, why don't you do something more positive for you cause, you are being and have been very negative, which makes alot of people ignore you and pay no attention to your "message".

P.P.S.: Hell yeah, if the messager is annoying, shoot them.

Yes, this is a vegan forum; it says so directly in the title, and those who are not vegans should leave; their posts are off-topic and against the rules. I agree with arugula completely.

wild-aloe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, this is a vegan forum; it says so directly in
> the title, and those who are not vegans should
> leave; their posts are off-topic and against the
> rules. I agree with arugula completely.

Interesting. I sometimes find it funny when vegans are compassionate towards animals but fail to have compassion for other human beings who aren't exactly like them.

My posts are not off topic. In fact, I don't see too many posts on here that are ever really off topic.

Posted by: wild-aloe

-Yes, this is a vegan forum; it says so directly in the title, and those who
-are not vegans should leave; their posts are off-topic and against the rules. --I agree with arugula completely.
______________________________________

That would be too bad - I still eat meat and cooked foods but because of this group I have been takeing the steps day by day to become raw.

When people read what you all write, it teaches people the benifits and how to get there - and a reason to get there.

Life isnt supposed to be all about "us" may we look to be ones that can encurage others and teach them what we know to be good and true and then maybe they too will be blessed:-)

PEACE