[www.myhealthblog.org]

Forgive me if one of you guys have already posted this. I cannot get straight where I get my info sometimes

I first learned of this a couple of weeks ago. It really bugs me because I have her book (based upon recommendations of some on here) and she makes such a case for the raw vegan diet! How do you go from publishing this huge book and then totally denouncing it one day? She has eaten this way for a long time, as I recall. At least Natasha from rawradianthealth hadn't been 100% raw vegan for all too long. And now Susan's writing a book based upon (I assume) the raw paleo diet?! I don't want to be cynical enough to believe this all has to do with selling books...It's just strange to me. It's one thing to tell everyone that you are backed to eating a little cooked food, but how can a person who was vegan even think about eating animal flesh?

Her observations should not be dismissed, it is very difficult to find pure veganism in nature, the cows eating grass also eat insects and bugs with the grass. That may be the optimal diet, raw food with some flesh in between but it cannot discuss at this forum because it is a vegan forum.
Someone eating 90 percent fruits is a fruitarian but someone eating 90 percent vegan is not a vegan ????
If we can open the debate and say it is ok to be 1 percent flesh and 99 percent vegan then we may resolve the b12 issue, the injections, and keep more people in the raw movement.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 02:36PM by RawPracticalist.

Come on people!! Is this the best we've got??? Rehashed trash about ex raw vegans who have gone south??? Sorry BW, Harley's got you beat on the trash department. We went through this 7-8 months ago and now we are rehashing. God...
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

I need to have a heart to heart with John Kohler as it appears the forum is losing focus and worrying less about successes and inspiration and more about trash and getting involved in other people's failures. More's the pity.

Yeah go ahead and get mad at me for those to whom this pertains, but the shoe fits. I will not sit back passively.

Paul

Update: sent an email to John and pm to Bryan. ::washing hands:::

@rawpracticalist, no thank you. I have no desire to participate in a raw paleo forum. There are plenty of those thank you. Following a raw vegan diet with healthy dentation and principle intact is easy and manageable.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 03:24PM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Come on people!! Is this the best we've got???
> Rehashed trash about ex raw vegans who have gone
> south??? Sorry BW, Harley's got you beat on the
> trash department. We went through this 7-8 months
> ago and now we are rehashing. God...
> [www.rawfoodsupport.com]
> 3329#msg-173329
>
> I need to have a heart to heart with John Kohler
> as it appears the forum is losing focus and
> worrying less about successes and inspiration and
> more about trash and getting involved in other
> people's failures. More's the pity.
>
> Yeah go ahead and get mad at me for those to whom
> this pertains, but the shoe fits. I will not sit
> back passively.
>
> Paul

Whoa, Paul...You sent me a PM a while back and stated that you thought I had been too strident with you over something. Now you are blatantly being accusatory. A raw forum should be able to discuss this sort of thing. It sounds to me that you are touchy for no reason. There are many threads that will echo your beliefs; my title was self-explanatory and there was no need for you to have even clicked on it. The reason I even brought it up was because this is a woman who WROTE A BOOK which sits on my shelf and which I look at often. For her and others to suddenly turn and preach something else entirely is very strange to me and I wonder if it's some growing trend and basically 'monkey see, monkey do.' The first response was a lot more civil, a lot more balanced. The only reason you think it's "trash" is that it threatens your beliefs. Well get over it!

No, BW, the reason I think it's talking trash is that it is talking trash. And also contrary to the stated policy of the forum. If you had bothered to check to see that Susan's decision had already been vetted 7 months ago, you would have known that. And no, it doesn't threaten my beliefs. Watching us waste more time on something already known that spreads more heat than light threatens my beliefs. I'm already over it. Said my piece to John and Bryan. You have a good day.

Paul

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 03:31PM by pborst.

Gee, sorry I didn't scroll back 7 months to see all the posts that were made. Please forgive me.

your sarcasm aside, it wouldn't have been that hard to do if you cared so much for that "book on your shelf". Your original site was September, about the same time of Harley's post. Maybe you can tell us about David Wolfe's law suit against Harley next January.

??? Original site??? The article is from Sept.,yes. Now please tell me WTF that has to do with the price of eggs? In case you are not aware, people post older stories all the time on here. In the misc. forum I have found out about government regulations regarding restricting gardens and other pending legislation. Some of those stories are a couple of years old and just recently posted and stuff I had never read or heard about, as often as I scan the Internets. Nope, sorry, I think your Grand Mal hissy was unwarranted. You could have expressed yourself with a lot more civility but you didn't. And I am not all that sure it's about what I posted. But it's all good. I am not sorry for having started this thread. It's healthy to explore issues like this and not just have a forum where everyone agrees 100% with everyone else. I don't get why anyone would want that, but many do. Take care.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 03:49PM by banana who.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ??? Original site??? The article is from
> Sept.,yes. Now please tell me WTF that has to do
> with the price of eggs?

You could have taken the time and thought to see if we already had discussed the issue.

In case you are not aware,
> people post older stories all the time on here. In
> the misc. forum I have found out about government
> regulations regarding restricting gardens and
> other pending legislation. Some of those stories
> are a couple of years old and just recently posted
> and stuff I had never read or heard about,

Yes, I'm aware. And frequently I check to take the time to check through a simple search to make sure I don't rehash old "news"... but old new isn't old "trash" is it. news is news and trash is trash, I don't believe in tabloid veganism.

as
> often as I scan the Internets. Nope, sorry, I
> think your Grand Mal hissy was unwarranted. You
> could have expressed yourself with a lot more
> civility but you didn't.

hello pot, meet kettle, your veiled reference to a Grand Mal seizure is an insult to epileptics (as well as me) and so much for civility. You are a self-refutation for your own point.

And I am not all that
> sure it's about what I posted. But it's all good.
> I am not sorry for having started this thread.
> It's healthy to explore issues like this and not
> just have a forum where everyone agrees 100% with
> everyone else. I don't get why anyone would want
> that, but many do. Take care.

It's not healthy to rehash trash about people who have departed from the point of the forum. Their ideas maybe, but not them. Talking about how "fat" someone is for example and selling products. So, I'm sorry you're not sorry about starting this thread. Perhaps you should be.

Paul

Again, WTF are you on about, Paul? Seriously. That last point: talking about how fat someone is? I didn't start that thread! If you look back at it, I even say that I don't really like that adjective in the first place. As for people who departed this forum? I have NO effing idea what you are talking about. You are reading into things that are not there. I wish you well, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 04:05PM by banana who.

Paul, I agree we don't want to credit this as it may open the door to more blurring of definition and purpose of our little Voyage of Raw Vegan here. But banana who did beg off in her intro that this topic was perhaps discussed already and implied it wasn't her intention to muddy the waters. I trust that that was the case.


I too would be irritated if I were an adherant of this or that regimen and discovered that someone who had guided me toward it was now fallen away. This is why I do not trust anyone but people here and ultimately my own gut for guidance. There are no gurus of raw; this is a misapplication of the word "guru" which has irritated me for quite a while, frankly. I say this--if the basic import of Shenck's book is still useful to you, then use it for what good it does you still. If, on the other hand, because a B12 deficiency is so easily averted you find it thoroughly discredits Shenck's book that she gave herself a B12 deficiency, get rid of the book and do what you think you should for yourself. Good luck!

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, WTF are you on about, Paul?

Don't get too full of yourself. My complaint to Prana and Bryan is your post and Harley's on David Wolfe. The trend is to talk trash instead of substance.


Seriously. That
> last point: talking about how fat someone is? I
> didn't start that thread! If you look back at it,
> I even say that I don't really like that adjective
> in the first place.

Where did I say so you did? I'm complaining against the trend which you are a part of.

As for people who departed
> this forum? I have NO effing idea what you are
> talking about. You are reading into things that
> are not here. I wish you well, though.

Sorry BW, but I think it's you who are reading into this thread instead of considering it in the broader context. My pm to Bryan was on his rationalization of Harley's post. My point to you is on the substance of yours. Irrespective of your view of the word "fat" you are an active participant in tabloid veganism. And you should stop.

Paul

Should not the issue be RE-discussed if 100 percent veganism is not working for some?

Tamara,

I understand your point. But we've been constantly subjected to this falling off haven't we? Susan, Paul Nisson, others. I just get tired waking up rereading the same stuff over and over instead of letting those who have departed depart.

It gets self-defeating. Then we give an opportunity like raw"practiticalist" to say "why doesn't rawfoodsupport" become "another Paleodiet" because BW didn't do her homework. I'm just tired of it.

Paul

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul, I agree we don't want to credit this as it
> may open the door to more blurring of definition
> and purpose of our little Voyage of Raw Vegan
> here. But banana who did beg off in her intro
> that this topic was perhaps discussed already and
> implied it wasn't her intention to muddy the
> waters. I trust that that was the case.
>
>
> I too would be irritated if I were an adherant of
> this or that regimen and discovered that someone
> who had guided me toward it was now fallen away.
> This is why I do not trust anyone but people here
> and ultimately my own gut for guidance. There are
> no gurus of raw; this is a misapplication of the
> word "guru" which has irritated me for quite a
> while, frankly. I say this--if the basic import
> of Shenck's book is still useful to you, then use
> it for what good it does you still. If, on the
> other hand, because a B12 deficiency is so easily
> averted you find it thoroughly discredits Shenck's
> book that she gave herself a B12 deficiency, get
> rid of the book and do what you think you should
> for yourself. Good luck!

RawPracticalist,

Not on the forums publically--this is a vegan board, and we respectfully abide by it. When someone says that raw vegan isn't working for them, the prudent thing most of us say is to go see a doctor to know what has gone wrong, then advise alternative vegan solutions. Beyond that, that individual can find information that they may credit elsewhere.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should not the issue be RE-discussed if 100
> percent veganism is not working for some?

no, this is a vegan forum, and if veganism is by definition 100 percent, if you eat animal products, you aren't vegan. are you? Now my question to you sport, are you trolling?

Paul

Paul Nison--Wha? When? Huh? Ugh.

will pm you. old trash.

OK, got the point, I am new and was trying to become vegan

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, got the point, I am new and was trying to
> become vegan

I think as long as you are not trying to push animal products on to current members and are exploring , do what you like. I was objecting to your reframing the original question, not your personal conduct and decisions. Exploration and discussion about a living foods diet is welcome.

Thank you

Banana Who,

I apologize for my prior conduct when my statements were inappropriate. I think that to be sincere, an apology needs to be public and complete. While I continue to believe that the focus of the forum should be current and proactive, I dumped all of my frustration inappropriately on your thread that I was feeling about a trend in the forum and did not take the care and the time that I should have to distinguish that general concern from your thread. I regret that. Please accept my apology.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2011 06:01PM by pborst.

SOME PEOPLE ARE PROTEIN TYPES, SOME ARE A COMBINATION AND SOME ARE VEGGIE TYPES. IT IS MY BELIEF THAT PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE A LITTLE MEAT ONCE IN A WHILE UNLESS THEY ARE THE 6% SUCH AS I THAT CAN GET BY ON VEGGIES ALONE. MEAT SUPPLIES SOME OF THE TRACE MINERALS NECESSARY FOR HUMAN HEALTH BUT LIKE SO MUCH OF OUR FOOD THE MEAT SOLD IN SUPERMARKETS COMES FROM FILTHY CONTAMINATED ANIMALS THAT HAVE BEN SHOT FULL OF STEROIDS AND ANTIBIOTICS.

No problem, Paul Thank you. The energy right now feels pretty tense all over the place--whether it's the earthquake or revolution all over the globe. Peace.

ron,

Please don't yell. The "Nutrition Typing" diet, while interesting as a hypothesis, presently has zero evidence to back it up. So, I choose to consider this idea that 6% of Homo sapiens are supposed to be veg types, with x % being protein types(plants have protein too, duh!) to be, well, arbitrary piffle.

This is a vegan board. For what I hope is the last time--keep to the rules, please!

Encouraging the consumption of animal products on this forum is verboten.
Hearing that people who have been following a vegan diet and now are not due to deficiency or what-not and having questions about it is NOT forbidden or restricted in any way so long as the focus is on identifying what went wrong and how to correct it (vegan of course). If that doesn't seem doable to certain individuals they are welcome to go elsewhere to find and discuss that information but come on now, until getting to that point this IS the forum to look for vegan answers.

Please people, no matter how many times things have been discussed in the past no one can assume that everyone reading and posting here is aware of it. Just because you feel you have exhausted an issue doesn't mean that everyone else knows everything that you do, geez.

Bananawho, I ask these very questions particularly since I have 2 small children that I feed and care for, you know? David Mason is the ONLY long term vegan I have ever heard of who doesn't supplement and has been tested with no real deficiencies. Those aren't fabulous odds IMO and so we supplement but I don't love doing that. I would prefer to get everything we need via whole food sources but there isn't a vegan source of B12 or D3 and a few other essential things. So we make a choice, supplement and stay vegan or explore other options. It's up to each individual.

As Tam said, take what works for you from that book and use other sources to round out your health knowledge. And keep asking questions! Never, ever stop doing that, it's essential above all else .

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is why I do not trust anyone but people here
> and ultimately my own gut for guidance. There are
> no gurus of raw; this is a misapplication of the
> word "guru" which has irritated me for quite a
> while, frankly.

Well said tam and has been my thoughts also.

I think Pauls issue was with all the hate and slander that is getting passed around here recently. It detracts from the real issue here which is us following a raw or vegan diet or wanting to learn how to follow it successfully. Hate, unfounded slander in alot of cases etc does nothing to help our voyage for knowledge.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Never heard of her. Now she has a book singing the virtues of raw meat? Fast forward 5 years and she will be switching fads again, blaming the diet, and writing another book about her latest fad.

Here is a video of DR's blood tests in 2010.
[www.youtube.com]
Nothing much out of range and he's eating only massive amounts of fruits and veg and working out like mad. In lots of sun. Again, not typical results but just goes to show.