Thanks Rawlion
We cannot make a point here in the forum, there is a group that is promoting vitamins, cooked food, popcorn. Their argument is that soil is depleted, and vitamins are needed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2012 05:32PM by RawPracticalist.

>As i have stated 2 posts above this is not an 100% raw forum, it is a forum for >discussing vegan living and raw foods if you care to read the description fresh.

you do not believe in the raw food concept, as you have agreed.
that's all i'm saying.
not telling you not to post.
your position is just at cross purposes from a philosophical standpoint.


>I am vegan and have a passion for living and raw foods. Whether i base my diet >100% around raw food is irrelevant, dogmatic and pedantic in my opinion.


one could be 100% cooked and be an aspiring raw fooder who believes in it, instead of repeatedly lauding the benefits of cooked and all it's allegedly wondrous benefits, based on non wholistic pseudo science.

cooked food as a foreign invader:


In Detail:

Cooking food is always a chemical experiment because all kinds of new substances originate.

Many of these new substances are HeteroCyclicAmines (HCA).

Many of these HCA are directly or indirectly physically addictive. (1)

Due to the heat these HCA originate from the interaction between protein and carbohydrates and / or creatine (in red meat) or nitrate (in vegetables).

Some examples:

tryptophan + form- / acet-aldehyde = 1-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pro-mutagenic) (2)

tryptophan + glycolaldehyde = 1-hydroxymethyl-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (3)

serotonine + formaldehyde = 6-hydroxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (5)

serotonine + acetaldehyde = 6-hydroxy-1-methyl-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (6)

tyramine + nitrite = 3-diazotyramine(4-(2-aminoethyl))-6-diazo-2,4-cyclohexadienone (carcin.)(7)

salt + nitrite + protein / sugar = 2-chloro-4-methylthiobutanoate (mutagenic) (8)

glutamate + sugars = 2-amino-6-methyldipyrido-(1,2-a:3',2'-d)imidazole (carcinogenic) (9)

glutamate + sugars = 2-aminodipyrido-(1,2-a:3',2'-d)imidazole (carcinogenic) (9)

When aldehydes react upon cyclic amino acids or -amines (like tryptophan, tryptamine, serotonine, phenylalanine, tyrosine, dopamine, tyramine, aniline), mostly beta-carbolines and isoquinolines originate. When creatinine (from meat) is involved, mostly imidazoquinolines and imidaziquinoxalines originate. (10)

(Glutamate and tryptophan are amino acids, tyramine and serotonine are amines, and aldehydes are sugars)



In Which Foods?

In any heated food, HCA are formed. Almost all prepared foods contain:

9H-pyrido(3,4-b)indole = beta-carboline = tryptophan / tryptamine + aldehydes (11)

1-methyl-9H-pyrido(3,4-b)indole = 1-methyl-beta-carboline = tryptophan / tryptamine + aldehydes (11)

These substances influence benzodiazepine receptors in the brain, and indirectly a host of other neurotransmitters. (12)

If these substances further react upon amines like aniline, they even become mutagenic (23).

How much HCA originate depends on how much protein the food contains and on how much the food is heated. (14)

Because red meat contains high levels of both protein and creatinine (originating creatine), prepared red meat contains most HCA, especially when grilled (15). Besides prepared red meat, also prepared fish, soy and poultry contain lots of HCA. (16) Flavor-enhancers and bouillon contain protein-concentrates and therefore contain lots of HCA too. (11) But also prepared foods containing less protein contain HCA, like prepared grains (17) and -vegetables (18), and even foods like beer, soy sauce and canned orange juice. (19)

For example:

Meat contains a lot of creatine (20)

2-amino-1-methyl-6-(4-hydroxyfenyl)-imidazo-(4,5-b)pyridine (mutag.) = creatine + tyrosine + glucose (21)

Soy contains globulins

2-amino-9H-pyrido(2,3-b)indole (mutagenic) (22) = soy-globulins + sugars (23)

2-amino-3-methyl-9H-pyrido(2,3-b)indole (mutagenic) (24) = soy-globulins + sugars (23)

In prepared fish (25) ;

3-amino-1,4-dimethyl-5H-pyrido(4,3-b)indole (mutagenic)(26) = tryptophan + acetaldehyde (27)

3-amino-1-methyl-5H-pyrido(4,3-b)indole (mutagenic)(26) = tryptophane + acetaldehyde (28)

Vegetables contain nitrite

cancerous N-nitroso-compounds = amines + nitrite + sugars

specific N-nitroso-compound ;

4-(2-aminoethyl)-6-diazo-2,4-cyclohexadienone (cancerous) = tyramine + nitrite + sugars (7)

Cabbages contain thiocyanates ;

toxic (29) tetrahydro-beta-carboline-derivates = isothiocyanate + tyramine / serotonine etc.



Non-HCA ;

vegetables contain also flavonoïds

mutagenic glycosides (30) = flavonoïds + heat

[www.waiworld.com]

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> YOU don't get to "kick people off" the forum or
> insist that it "isn't for them" because they don't
> meet your specific criteria for "belonging" here.
> This bullcrud posting that gets done when opinions
> are expressed that don't fit with what you agree
> with so you make statements like "This is a raw
> food forum. You are on the wrong forum"... yeah,
> whatever dude. Use a REAL arguement to defend what
> you've got to say.
> Making baseless statements like "may have more
> nutrients but they are all dead" with zero fact
> based scientific data to back them up, come on
> now. If you have something of value to say, by all
> means, I'm sure we are all ears. But if you're
> going to brow beat people with your OPINION as
> though you somehow have a direct line to the
> truth, ha ha ha, don't expect a lot of thanks or
> respect from those whose opinions differ from
> yours. It has NOTHING to do with who is "friends"
> here and who is not, it has EVERYTHING to do with
> what is said.
>
> I think, if you even pay the SLIGHTEST attention,
> you will notice that when I give an opinion I am
> quite careful to phrase it as such, using terms
> like "I think", "In my experience", "In my
> opinion" etc. I will not make a definitive
> declaration of authority on a topic about which I
> am not an expert. YOU are not an expert in
> nutrition. You want to talk about your experience?
> Have at it. You want to bully people and toss
> around what you prefer to be the truth as the
> actual truth? Think twice. Eating a bit of cooked
> food is not going to kill anybody. Ease up. This
> dogma is not doing anybody any good at all. It is
> unhelpful for people to make decisions based on
> nonsense. Choosing what to eat and what to do,
> while a Very personal choice, is most helpful when
> based on something real. Some science, some fact,
> something that makes sense. Just saying "a cooked
> tomato is valueless because it's dead" oh come on.
> I challenge you to do better than that.

Why do you feel offended when others make their point?

If you want to eat cooked food,popcorn, cooked tomatoes because other sources are not available to you in the winter, that is your right.

I don't feel offended when people make their point (which you would know if you had read what you quoted). I enjoy reading about the experiences of others, that's what community forums are for. What I don't enjoy is being told that one person's experience is the end all be all answer to every trouble, lol. Opinion is not fact, don't present it as such and nobody will reasonably have any objection to what you've got to say.

> Making baseless statements like "may have more
> nutrients but they are all dead" with zero fact
> based scientific data to back them up, come on

do you mean baseless statements like the below?

-Well if its about the quality then in this case the cooked would be preferred as -lycopene and beta-carotene are main characteristics of tomatoes health benefits.


= never mind the vitamins and minerals, some of which are altered or destroyed,, eh powerlifer, Mr Science, who has hereby declared that lycopene and bc are the main health "benefits" of tomatoes!

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't feel offended when people make their point
> (which you would know if you had read what you
> quoted). I enjoy reading about the experiences of
> others, that's what community forums are for. What
> I don't enjoy is being told that one person's
> experience is the end all be all answer to every
> trouble, lol. Opinion is not fact, don't present
> it as such and nobody will reasonably have any
> objection to what you've got to say.


Can you provide a quote where somebody was forcing his views on you because it keep coming up with your posts. It seems like there is a group of friends you like and others you do not no matter how they express their views

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> one could be 100% cooked and be an aspiring raw
> fooder who believes in it, instead of repeatedly
> lauding the benefits of cooked and all it's
> allegedly wondrous benefits, based on non
> wholistic pseudo science.

I couldn't give a damn fresh what you believe your individual requirements for me to discuss and take part in the forum are, as said for the third time this is a forum by description as discussion of vegan living and raw foods. I am vegan and i have a passion for raw foods, just because i like a few cooked foods doesn't mean im anti-raw foods LOL.

You need to lighten up bro, you can't just have a debate, its just food at the end of the day no need resorting to cheeky names. What i meant was that they were the main characteristics of tomatoes are lycopene and its beta-carotene content which comes from its red pigments.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2012 06:54PM by powerlifer.

>What i meant was that they were the main characteristics of tomatoes were lycopene and its beta-carotene content which comes from its red pigments.

benefits you said.

it's always about benefits with you.

leave food alone and let it just be food !

it's too much pressure ! leave the tomatoes alone!

free the tomatoes!

madinah Wrote:
> Can you provide a quote where somebody was forcing
> his views on you ...

My main objection, as stated over and over again, is having opinion posted as FACT. I'm not so fond of abusive comments or plain old ridiculous statements that are meaningless either. Here ya go, from this single topic alone...

"The cooked tomato is saturated with citric acid, and therefore is really a mild poison, not a food."

"Life is destroyed in cooked tomatoes, it does not matter how many nutrients you get. It is a waste."

"Take two tomatoes, cook one and leave the other uncooked. Leave them on a table for few days. The uncooked tomato has life and will survive for days. The other may have more nutrients but they are all dead. They cannot survive and organize themselves into a coherent living unit."

"This is a raw food forum. You are on the wrong forum."

"you are ridiculous"

"In cooking a tomato, you are removing the water and many other important relationships"

"Our body reacts to cooked food as a foreign invader"

Come on now, either present these comments as the opinion they are or back them up with some FACTS. Goodness. I'm not even contending that everything here is false, unsupported though, it is only opinion and should be presented as such. Cooking tomatoes takes out water... so? I get tons of other water, and if you haven't noticed, sauce is WET, lol. What's gonna happen? Is it as terrible for me as removing all the fiber and leaving nothing but the water (juice)? How is really dehydrated food going to have a negative impact on health if other liquid is adequately consumed? Whatever your opinion, back it up with some facts or it's meaningless.

Why, why not discuss the potential and studied benefits of plant foods. I think thats one of the most interesting factors about plant foods, sure yeah just fuel to live, nutrients in, nutrients expended.

But some do wish to learn more about the certain compounds and phytonutrients found in plant foods and their potential healing benefits.

Very good points coco.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2012 07:00PM by powerlifer.

coco
these are some of your views

"I don't always have access to fresh everything I'd need to meet that a whole food multi or green powder provides and I sure don't have time to research what I'd need to combine and in what amounts to get the things I think we need.
I'm not a big fan of juice without the fiber anyhow. Now and then but not all the time. Dehydrated food is easy to take with a glass of water "

"Eating a bit of cooked food is not going to kill anybody. "

Where are the scientific proofs you are providing in those statements. You keep complaining about others but you make similar blank statements.

LOL you're kidding, right? The first is obviously my opinion, you'd have to work very hard at reading it as anything but. "the things I think we need", "I'm not a big fan of...". And the second is self-evident as the entire planet eats a mostly cooked food diet and seems to be over-running the place with their 7 billion plus selves. Haven't heard of any deaths by cooked tomato or popcorn lately though. Or ever...
Laughing my panties off over here. This has been fun, thanks .

Should not what you do or eat be more important to you than what others write?
It seems like you are more concerned about others opinions.
Cooked tomato is not part of my diet just to get more of a single nutrient.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should not what you do or eat be more important to
> you than what others write?
> It seems like you are more concerned about others
> opinions.


Obviously I value my own informed opinion over some of the claptrap I read here or I'd bow to the zealotry and be eschewing anything cooked at all, all "stimulating" foods like garlic, onions, spices, all herbs, and every nightshade, lol.
You do know that this is an information forum, most of us are here to learn new things and share what we know. If offering opinion, it's most helpful to state it as such, to do otherwise is what I'd consider disingenuous and misleading.



> Cooked tomato is not part of my diet just to get
> more of a single nutrient.

It's not a part of my diet just to get more of a single nutrient either. Part of eating a healthy diet to me includes consuming fresh, local produce and where or when that option is not available to choose the very best next choice. For me, that is not a tomato that flew to me from Chile, I'd rather eat my own cooked tomato sauce that I canned fresh at the end of summer than that. I certainly don't think it's going to hurt me and in my opinion and experience that has proven to be true.

I certainly support people eating whatever diet appeals to and works best for them whether that includes all raw or some cooked food. I don't think eating high raw is less valuable than 100% raw, having experienced both I can see benefits to each. And I certainly don't support telling people who don't follow a 100% raw diet or who don't think that's 100% necessary that they don't belong here, that they don't have anything valuable to add to this site, or that their experiences and wisdom are not wanted or helpful. I wouldn't exactly call it not supporting raw either, and I also wouldn't call it "promoting" eating cooked food. Obviously everybody here thinks there's value in raw food, some, most, or all raw. That's not even debatable in my opinion.

In conclusion coco is right and we are all wrong.

Still do not understand why there is so much difficulty indicating the difference between blanket statements and opinion: A blanket statement indicates that there is absolute verification of something and it cannot be questioned, and because most of us here are posting our opinions only, they should be couched in such terms: I feel . . . In my opninion . . . As I understand it . . . etc.

To sum up: If your opinion about x, y, or z might benefit us here, super--I'd love to hear about it. Expecting others to treat your opinions as fact that must be guiding writ is insulting and not what we should be doing here.

Zealotry is always a turn-off, people, and I'd like newcomers, to say nothing of me, to not feel like this is a cult where any dissent is hounded into suppression!

Should not you say
I feel . . . In my opninion . . . that
"A blanket statement indicates that there is absolute verification of something and it cannot be questioned, and because most of us here are "

You should apply your own rule to yourself



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 02:32AM by RawPracticalist.

I think it's a real shame that this has turned into such a fight.

This post has made me feel slightly hounded because I do not eat 100% raw. I'm not going to go back and dredge up quotes but my general feeling after reading through the above is a certain inadequacy for not managing 100% raw. I'm sure that wasn't your intention but you must think for a moment how people are going to feel when you say that certain foods are poison, toxic what ever. I myself find it easy to be vegan but am made to feel uncomfortable by your insistence on 100% raw - how must anyone feel who is struggling to become vegan let alone raw?

Shall we all back off now and become more supportive of each other -

Becoming raw is a journey - in my opinion - and not everyone is going to get to the same destination. Becoming vegan, eating more raw - these are wonderful achievements not just for ones own health but also for the planet - lets have a bit more understanding and love.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 07:37AM by flipperjan.

Not everybody lives in the same circumstances. Some people will have more money, time, resources, etc.

In my case I strive ideologically for being 100%. But! practically it is difficult. Example, I work out hard. I need energy and the gymn is remote from my house. I cannot carry bottles of perishable stuff with me everywhere. So sometimes I buy juice on the run (yeah, pasteurized juice). Sweet juice gives me fast energy when I need it. This gives me the extra energy I need.

The world is not perfect. I am not perfect. Not being perfect is perfect



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 10:05AM by Panchito.

.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 11:13AM by powerlifer.

It would be a great forum if the posts were anonymous then we would just discuss the idea not the person. May be I should say IN MY OPINION, I SUGGEST THAT ...
IN MY OPINION ... the vitamin and popcorn group is very supportive of each other and they get very upset when their views are challenged.
They want us to believe that you need to eat cooked tomato to get a single nutrient.
This is just a forum, nobody claims to have the absolute truth, even Einstein views about the universe are being challenged.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 11:34AM by RawPracticalist.

Dude the only people who constantly get upset are the anti-herbs, spice group. We can't have a discussion at all without every thread being hijacked with drive by blanket statements such as "all herbs are toxic poisons", "garlic is a toxin", "Omg you eat a cooked tomato get off this forum" and so on.

I might debate but i never get upset and have to resort to calling people names like others did in this thread(aswell as the sly parenting comment and other low blows), all because i said i liked abit of cooked tomato aswell as raw or because a member said they might have organic popcorn on occasion lol. I see only a few hostile members in this thread.

I will debate points i feel are incorrect but i never get upset and always say that im not forcing my views on anyone(its sad when you have to continually state this point and in my opinion all the time). However i can't say same for others, who just can't accept that others have different views. Some people take this stuff far too much to heart.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2012 11:43AM by powerlifer.

RawPracticalist,

You cannot deliberately manifest factionalism here and then complain that there are factions. You cannot make blanket statements, decry those whose practices of this lifestyle do not hew to your blanket definitions, and expect there to not be hard feelings.

No one here has the right to tell anyone else--categorically--that they are doing it wrong. And if they do, they should expect people to be insulted and to remonstrate with them. If you're not here to create conflict, but to help and inform, you won't communicate like you want to punish or marginalize all those who do not live the way you do, IMO.

flipperjan,

Please remember that you have been here a long time, have contributed a great deal to these forums, and that there are many of us here who value your voice!

Tamukha Wrote:


> flipperjan,
>
> Please remember that you have been here a long
> time, have contributed a great deal to these
> forums, and that there are many of us here who
> value your voice!

My thoughts EXACTLY! <3 Jan <3

I am being impartial here and am striving myself to an all raw diet, however,Ilooked at the policy of the forum and I don't see anything forbidding talking or promoting cooked foods of plant origin or even honey.

This is part of the policy- "The spirit of the Living & Raw Foods Community discussion forums is to support others that eat a diet composed primarily of raw plant foods(including honey) but no animal products (such as meat,dairy,etc)."

primarily means, as everyone knows, for the most part. So the forum, IMO,inherently supports talk or promotion of some cooked foods.

I think the rules need to be clearer as to what can and cannot be promoted.

powerlifer

>1.Any proof that the body views cooked food as a "foreign invader" ?.

>2. [www.waiworld.com]

you asked for proof, and were given a response

so i'm wondering if you think the link shows evidence that you were looking for, or perhaps

.you don't trust the source
.they didn't mention the phrase "foreign invader"
.that's not the kind of cooking you were talking about
.that's not the kind of foods you were talking about

In the context of this thread we were talking about cooked tomatoes not red meat, so im not going to even skim that site at the moment, especially not wasting my time reading it for how this thread had gone last night.

you did not say cooked tomatoes,, you said cooked food, right?

"Any proof that the body views cooked food as a "foreign invader" ?. "


and the site lists cooked toxins in vegetables and other foods, not just meat

Fresh, are you on the Wai diet?