Photo of a liver duct and real stone. [www.thelifetree.com]

That shows you the size of the ducts and how it would be impossible to pass 2+ inch "stones".

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Powerlifer, what is the difference between various bitters for gallbladder and how would one choose? You say the artichoke leaf is your favourite, why though in which respect it's better than others?

Few months ago I had a scan, because of stomach pains after eating, right in the middle on the very top. It was about the time when I decided to tweak my diet and go raw. I think the scan showed that the bile was stagnated, there was no stones or anything. The liver seemed fine on the scan. So the doc suggested instead of pills doing once a month the oil/salts/lemon thingy, to help empty the gallbladder. I was even considering it but now that I am on the raw diet, with carefully controlled fat intakes I wouldn't do the oil thing if they pay me.

I sort of believe that the raw diet should be positive on the gallbladder as it is on almost everything else, and look forward to the next scan hoping to see the improvements. But still want to support and stimulate the flow if possible. Doc also spoke of the artichoke-based pills, but i looked at some and they are full of e-numbers. Then i looked for a real artichoke but couldnt find the organic one.

I was also wondering about the bitters, is this something you would have to do for the rest of your days, or are they meant to help to cure the condition and then you can go on healthy without them?

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

The oil, espom salt style flush will help bile stagnation due to the large amount of oil causing the gallbladder to contract, but it isn't very safe in my opinion especially if you do have gallstones which could potentially end up blocking a duct.

There are many herbs which are good for increasing bile flow and yeah artichoke is one of them and is also a good bitter(which stimulates the vagus nerve and increases bile flow). Bitters must come in contact with the back of the tongue which is where the bitter receptors are located.

Artichoke is just one of my favorite herbs for the liver overall, i also like bupleurum root which is one of the few liver herbs that don't need to come in contact with the back of the tongue in order to cleanse the liver. Any bitter food or herb will work though. Herbs are just easier to use pre meal, there are many digestive bitter formulas such as Chinese Bitters or Swedish bitters, but i don't tend to recommend the use of the Swedish Bitters as they contain stimulant laxative herbs which can weaken bowel function.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Cheers, I don't have gallstones maybe that's why doc felt safe to recommend the oil thing. But I wouldn't do it anyhow, especially if there are alternatives.

Will look for the artichoke leaf, at least it sounds more down to earth compared to the bupleurum root!

Does one have to make bitters a part of their ordinary diet? Once the bitters have helped to cure the situation, is it safe to abandon using them without the worry that the situation will come back? (providing the diet overall is good, raw, lots of fiber, etc)

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Ahh yeah sorry i forgot to answer that, no you won't likely need the bitters for life once you get the bile moving again. There are many causes for bile stagnation including mental/emotional, the liver/gallbladder are very stress sensitive organs.

I certainly don't need them anymore to digest high fat meals and my bile flow used to be very poor so much so i was deficient in all fat soluble vitamins.

Remember a low fat diet can promote bile stagnation through the lack of fats. A little oil and fats in the diet isn't bad as it keeps the gallbladder from stagnating

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Cheers powerlifer that's great to know!

I did a search on the artichoke leaf today, and found this one: [www.viridian-nutrition.com]

Does it sound good? It is in capsules, but they all seem to be sold like this, will they need to be put on the back of the tongue (so I just open the capsule and do it that way?)

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Yeah for bitters to work they must come in contact with the back of the tongue so you can taste the bitter flavour.

You would be better off just buying some artichoke powder in my opinion. If you are in UK let me know if your are US then there are a number of good suppliers.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Cheers powerlifer, yes I'm in UK - I did notice a powder in google results, but it wasn't organic. So if I buy the above capsules I'll just open them then, it's probably going to be more expensive but at least they are organic... (there seem to be no additives too, just the powder inside)

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

I got the artichoke delivered today, and not sure how much shall take? I opened one capsule and put the tiniest bit of the powder on my tongue, and oh my is it bitter...... Do I have to take the whole capsule this way, or would this tiniest bit be enough - it still tastes bitter in my mouth!

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Hey Chat,

Because you have bought artichoke capsules im not sure if its the whole herb or an extract, do you have a link.

Really though for the bitter effect all you need is to taste it, a pinch or so would do the trick. Half a teaspoon is the dosage i usually recommend, where as most bitter formula's recommend a teaspoon(you don't need this much in my opinion) and it not only saves money but works as good.

So yeah if its whole leaves and not an extract id recommend 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of powder and really make sure it comes in contact with the back of the tongue. If its an artichoke extract just use the product as stated but empty the capsules in a little water so that you get the bitter tasting properties from the herb.

I find it really laughable how a small number of companies sell encapsulated digestive bitter formula's. The whole method of bitters is through the bitter taste stimulating the vagus nerve to release stomach acid, pancreatic digestive enzymes, bile and "flush" the liver as a result.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2012 06:55PM by powerlifer.

Thanks powerlifer, it's this one I got: [www.viridian-nutrition.com]

Seems to contain powder made from leaves, and when I look at the powder I can see bits of plants there so seems quite natural. I bought 90 capsules, it's gonna last me half my life!! good job the expiry date is good.

Where do you keep your powder? I was thinking once I open the capsule perhaps some container would be better rather than closing the capsule back.

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

The other thing I wanted to ask: is it ok to taste the bitter just before eating the meal? And if so, for how long shall one "taste" the bitter, before eating the meal and suppressing the taste.

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Yeah right before meals is the best time to consume bitters, although they can be taken after large meals also, which is a tradition in europe with digestif's they consume after meals. Digestif's contain bitter and other digestive tonic herbs.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

I can't find artichoke leaf at the stores so I'll be looking for a Canadian or US supplier. Wish I was in the UK to order from you Powerlifer, why do you have to be so far away? I'd rather trust an actual person I've spoken to and can see knows what they're talking about than an anonymous online source, sigh.

Sorry guys, I have a differing clinical opinion. I own an integrative medical practice. I have seen several liver cleanse patients succeed with an applejuice/olive oil/lemon juice cleanse.
Our clinic doesn't recommend them at this time, but we have seen them work multiple times. When I say they work, I mean we have had several patients walk in with HIDA scan results showing 100% blockage of bile ducts with stones and sludge. Their doctors inevitably want to remove the gallbladder surgically, but these patients want to do something natural for it. Because we are integrative and like to have evidence for what we do, we currently don't prescribe this as a treatment. Several have done the cleanse a few times, repeated the HIDA scan only to show 0% blockage. The sludge and stones are gone along with all symptoms.

I have to say that you guys are wrong. Somehow, either the stones decrease in size, the duct increases in size or both because the stones have dissapeared. I have now seen this phenomenon in multiple people. The cleanse does seem to work for these people. I do think the fear that a stone may get stuck is a valid concern however. I just thought I would post the evidence I have seen on this matter. We as a clinic still don't recommend these to patients, but they can work.