I thought the degeneration of the myelin shealth was multiple sclerosis, an autoimmune disease exacerbated by animal protein, particularly dairy protein (see Roy Swank's work for more detail). I wonder if your myelin sheath damage was caused by the fermented goat milk and yogurt?

I know that people have treated multiple sclerosis and attacks with a strict vegan, low protein (no animal protein) that isn't high fat. Pretty sure that is what Swank had, low fat rather high fat. [www.swankmsdiet.org]

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought the degeneration of the myelin shealth
> was multiple sclerosis, an autoimmune disease
> exacerbated by animal protein, particularly dairy
> protein (see Roy Swank's work for more detail).
> I wonder if your myelin sheath damage was caused
> by the fermented goat milk and yogurt?
>
> I know that people have treated multiple sclerosis
> and attacks with a strict vegan, low protein (no
> animal protein) that isn't high fat. Pretty sure
> that is what Swank had, low fat rather high fat.
> [www.swankmsdiet.org]


I didn't say "degenerated", I said THINNED. THINNED. The less fat you eat, the less fat is available in your bloodstream, which means the less fat is available to build and maintain the myelin sheath. So then, it gets thinner, somewhat the same way your bones get weak if there's not enough calcium or vitamin D in your blood.

And my panic attacks, dread, and social anxiety are completely gone now, thanks to a high-fat diet and natural mineral supplements like Terramin and dolomite.

I eat plenty of raw dairy now, and have no such problems. Note that I'm not PROMOTING the use of it, because this is a vegan board. Also, I know of quite a few raw paleo dieters who have had serious trouble with raw dairy, even fermented and grassfed. However, it works for me.

In fact, the problems got worse AFTER I stopped eating the dairy, which I attribute to the sudden decrease in dietary fat.

Eww.

It seems to me you are splitting hairs when you are discussing thinning the myelin sheath vs. "degeneration" as the two can be synonymous. You mentioned nerves firing at random, sounds like something close to multiple sclerosis to me.

I'm glad you are feeling better and have made a recovery. Still, you have not made your case that this is an inherent risk for 80-10-10, made all the more doubtful by therapy of low fat diets in treating conditions like MS. If it were as simple as adding fat, then a low fat diet should be of little value in treating MS. The fact that Professor Swank has made it work successfully in treating MS patients makes me skeptical that high fat is a necessary condition for myelin formation. The liver can make fat from carbohydrate, de novo lipogenesis, right? So, if a guy like Harley or Doug Graham is eating 3000+ calories per day, then there is no shortage of fuel in the body for the liver to produce all the fat it needs.

Anyway, glad you are recovered. I'm unconvinced that 80-10-10 poses the risk of neurological damage from low fat content by itself, the anecdotes & experiences of other forum mates following a LFRV diet here and the lack of symptoms would seem to cut the other way. I would be more worried about B-12 deficiency (absent supplementation) than I would about the lack of fat.

Also, I was mistaken about Swank's diet being vegan. It is low fat but can include animal products. I was confused because I had first ready about it from John Mc Dougall MD who is vegan and also because Joel Fuhrman's autoimmune protocal for treating diseases like MS and lupus is vegan.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2012 02:55AM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems to me you are splitting hairs when you
> are discussing thinning the myelin sheath vs.
> "degeneration" as the two can be synonymous. You
> mentioned nerves firing at random, sounds like
> something close to multiple sclerosis to me.
>
> I'm glad you are feeling better and have made a
> recovery. Still, you have not made your case
> that this is an inherent risk for 80-10-10, made
> all the more doubtful by therapy of low fat diets
> in treating conditions like MS. If it were as
> simple as adding fat, then a low fat diet should
> be of little value in treating MS. The fact that
> Professor Swank has made it work successfully in
> treating MS patients makes me skeptical that high
> fat is a necessary condition for myelin formation.
> The liver can make fat from carbohydrate, de
> novo lipogenesis, right? So, if a guy like Harley
> or Doug Graham is eating 3000+ calories per day,
> then there is no shortage of fuel in the body for
> the liver to produce all the fat it needs.
>
> Anyway, glad you are recovered. I'm unconvinced
> that 80-10-10 poses the risk of neurological
> damage from low fat content by itself, the
> anecdotes & experiences of other forum mates
> following a LFRV diet here and the lack of
> symptoms would seem to cut the other way. I
> would be more worried about B-12 deficiency
> (absent supplementation) than I would about the
> lack of fat.
>



First, I'm NOT "splitting hairs" re:degeneration versus thinning. Degeneration implies some underlying disease, like MS. Thinning is just that, thinning. There's not necessarily any underlying disease, merely a lack of appropriate thickness. But hey, it's just a theory.

I know from both my own experience, and from speaking to other vegans, that neurological problems are a SERIOUS issue, and it's not all B-12 deficiency. If it were a B-12 issue, then eating avocados and coconut would NOT reduce the panic attacks, etc.. However, they DO, and extremely well. Pretty much any fat works, in fact.

And if you think that 80/10/10 allows the liver to make fat from FRUIT, then you don't understand 80/10/10, and have never DONE the diet, and probably have never MET anyone who HAS, at least not long-term.

Have you not seen these people? They don't have an ounce of extra fat on their bodies. 80/10/10 FORCES your body and/or brain to use up all that sugar IMMEDIATELY. Either you exercise heavily, your mind races madly, or both. You're not storing or converting any sugars. It's all getting used as soon as it hits your bloodstream.

Come on, that's one of the selling points of the diet, that Harley and Dr. D talk about, the fact that there's literally no way to get fat on it.

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It seems to me you are splitting hairs when you
> > are discussing thinning the myelin sheath vs.
> > "degeneration" as the two can be synonymous.
> You
> > mentioned nerves firing at random, sounds like
> > something close to multiple sclerosis to me.
> >
> > I'm glad you are feeling better and have made a
> > recovery. Still, you have not made your case
> > that this is an inherent risk for 80-10-10,
> made
> > all the more doubtful by therapy of low fat
> diets
> > in treating conditions like MS. If it were as
> > simple as adding fat, then a low fat diet
> should
> > be of little value in treating MS. The fact
> that
> > Professor Swank has made it work successfully
> in
> > treating MS patients makes me skeptical that
> high
> > fat is a necessary condition for myelin
> formation.
> > The liver can make fat from carbohydrate, de
> > novo lipogenesis, right? So, if a guy like
> Harley
> > or Doug Graham is eating 3000+ calories per
> day,
> > then there is no shortage of fuel in the body
> for
> > the liver to produce all the fat it needs.
> >
> > Anyway, glad you are recovered. I'm
> unconvinced
> > that 80-10-10 poses the risk of neurological
> > damage from low fat content by itself, the
> > anecdotes & experiences of other forum mates
> > following a LFRV diet here and the lack of
> > symptoms would seem to cut the other way. I
> > would be more worried about B-12 deficiency
> > (absent supplementation) than I would about the
> > lack of fat.
> >
>
>
>
> First, I'm NOT "splitting hairs" re:degeneration
> versus thinning. Degeneration implies some
> underlying disease, like MS. Thinning is just
> that, thinning. There's not necessarily any
> underlying disease, merely a lack of appropriate
> thickness. But hey, it's just a theory.

How do you know there isn't an underlying disease? If it is just a theory, then you shouldn't be in here presuming to tell other people what their risk is based on your unsupported supposition and conjecture. Splitting hairs are far as I am concerned.


> I know from both my own experience, and from
> speaking to other vegans, that neurological
> problems are a SERIOUS issue, and it's not all
> B-12 deficiency.

Your not vegan are you? I thought you were Paleo. No one said neurological problems weren't serious or that it had to be all B-12. Rather, you asserted that anyone who eats 80-10-10 is subjecting themselves to neurological risk due to the lack of fat in the diet, again without any support or citation beyond your anecdotes.


>If it were a B-12 issue, then
> eating avocados and coconut would NOT reduce the
> panic attacks, etc.. However, they DO, and
> extremely well. Pretty much any fat works, in
> fact.

Why aren't panic attacks prevalent among 80-10-10 practioners on this board? On 30BD? In the literature? A study? A prospective trial. The fact that is may have been sufficient in your case does not make it necessary for everyone else. Or as Tamara says, you are not a statistic.

> And if you think that 80/10/10 allows the liver to
> make fat from FRUIT, then you don't understand
> 80/10/10, and have never DONE the diet, and
> probably have never MET anyone who HAS, at least
> not long-term.

You are not in a position to know what I know, what I've done or who I've met.
Back to topic. If caloric intake is sufficient, then the liver can produce fat from fructose through de novo lipogenesis. [www.youtube.com] at 1:04.

> Have you not seen these people? They don't have
> an ounce of extra fat on their bodies.

I agree they are lean. The body can still produce endogenous fat from carbohydrate if calories are sufficient. It's not dependent on dietary fat intake.

> 80/10/10
> FORCES your body and/or brain to use up all that
> sugar IMMEDIATELY. Either you exercise heavily,
> your mind races madly, or both. You're not
> storing or converting any sugars. It's all
> getting used as soon as it hits your bloodstream.

Maybe true for glucose. Fructose has to be metabolized by the liver. No other way. If there is enough of it calorically, you can produce fat in the liver via de novo lipogenesis. Besides, your claim that Harley and Doug are neurologically imbalanced isn't supported. Do they have panic attacks? Based on what?

> Come on, that's one of the selling points of the
> diet, that Harley and Dr. D talk about, the fact
> that there's literally no way to get fat on it.

Not on it, in it. Visceral body fat. Low body fat is still fat. Has to be maintained, even in low amounts. If there is enough fat being maintained to avoid hypothermia and maintain hormonal levels, absorb fat soluble vitamins, what makes you think there isn't enough to maintain myelin?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2012 04:43AM by pborst.

c_k, I get the impression that you weren't doing 80-10-10 long enough to develop deficiencies. It sounds like you were on the diet for months rather than years. In fact, what it seems to me is that what you were experiencing is emotional detox that arises when one has a lighter diet with less digestion, that you had energy to process emotion that had been long stuffed inside you. I bet the first time you had one of your fatty animal based meals, those emotions dried up instantly, and you have an instant healing of your neurological condition.

Except had you really had nerve damage, it would have take some time for your nerves to heal themselves.

Interesting conversation in here. What I'm gleaning for myself is that eliminating too much fat may not be the way to go. I'm not about to go for the cow teat myself OR a bunch of processed oils from tropical plants but local nuts and seeds in sufficient amounts, that I can do.

@ Geo,

Thank you. I love my tat.

@ Cherimoya Kid,

My anxiety attacks disappeared shortly after I went raw. In fact, the attacks went away within just a few weeks of eating high raw and I've never had them again since, and I had them since my pre teens. It was one of the first major improvements that I posted about here when I first joined the community.

Your experience on 80/10/10 are not typical and it sounds to me like you have a theory but no solid evidence that 80/10/10 was the cause of your problems.

I hope you're feeling better today and find a diet that works best for you. I do appreciate you sharing your experience.

cherimoya_kid,

Your symptoms are horrifying, indeed, and I am glad you are better now. However, one can do 80/10/10 without depriving oneself of fats; Doug Graham doesn't advocate that one do so. Also, that your particular organism could not over time--I'm assuming a long, long time as a proof--tolerate large amounts of fructose in a void of fat is a result specific to you, and cannot be necessarily extrapolated to apply to the rest of us. If we speak anecdotally, as you are doing by citing the "vegans you've talked to," most of the people doing high fruit/low fat on these boards aren't experiencing these adverse effects and are a valid enough counter argument.

roxeli seems to be doing well on her regimen; her organism has responded differently to high fruit than yours did and there is no reason to issue dire forecasts intimating that what she's doing is damaging, rather than ameliorating, her health. Using your sad case as an example is useful, but note: we aren't demeaning your poor result with high fruit/low fat nor the choices you have made to get better. I am glad you aren't furtively hopping buses all day long to get away from your own anxieties

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I am glad you aren't furtively
> hopping buses all day long to get away from your
> own anxieties


Oh, it was worse. Right after eating a fruit meal, I would start to shake with panic if I got within 10-15 feet of another person. Seriously.

I will admit that eating mostly dry fruit like bananas, persimmons, jackfruit, durian, etc. will definitely SLOW the neurological degeneration. That doesn't mean it isn't happening. The anxiety attacks brought on by being around other people started when I was eating mostly bananas.

Prana--As far as emotional detox goes, I actually find that ANY fat controlled the panic, not just animal fats. Also, I don't consider it emotional detox. Panic is not emotional detox. Panic is panic, and is not a productive emotion, ESPECIALLY when you're experiencing it all the time. That's just my point of view.


Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there is enough fat being maintained to avoid hypothermia and maintain >hormonal levels, absorb fat soluble vitamins, what makes you think there isn't >enough to maintain myelin?


Actually I DON'T think there's enough to maintain hormone levels. My sexual desire was next to ZERO on the 80/10/10. Normally it's fairly high.

It's definitely not enough to avoid hypothermia. Everybody who's tried 80/10/10 knows that it's much harder to deal with cold weather, eating that way.

Also, I don't think there's enough to absorb fat soluble vitamins. I find that I sleep much, much better if I'm eating a high-fat diet AND getting extra vitamin D, either from sunlight or supplements. The supplements don't work NEARLY as well without a high-fat diet.

I also notice that I have much less plaque on my teeth if I'm eating high fat and getting lots of vitamin D. Both of those factors, the fat and the vit D, have to be in place for that to work.



Tamukha, I'm going to need you to address the issue of a high-fat diet being useful against epilepsy.

To me, the symptoms of panic attacks are much more similar to epilepsy than to MS. Epilepsy and panic attacks both involve excessive/chaotic electrical activity. MS does not.

By the way, I'm not here to spread PANIC about this issue. I'm just worried that other people are going to try this diet and have problems, and then not have a roadmap to find their way out of those problems.

I might be eating a wider variety of foods. Maybe that makes a difference. I don't eat dehydrated fruit, only fresh.

Today, I've had three red grapefruits, 7 navel oranges, two large green salads with pumpkin seeds and lime juice, 4 bananas, 1 pear, 1 gala apple, jicama with lemon juice, and 2 vegetable juices.

Today is my rest day meaning no workouts. I eat less on those days. The days I workout I do eat more bananas. The only problem with that is I'm actually starting to dislike bananas. Hopefully, that will pass.

OK, so it's been awhile since I looked into 80/10/10 but a long time ago I noticed that one of the reasons that people avoided fat is because it blocked insulin from going to the cells. Now some fats, like Omega 3's, will actually improve the function of insulin. So maybe people on an 80/10/10 diet would do better, and safely up their intake of fat while still staying true to the 80/10/10 principles, if they divided the fats into types and didn't count the Omega 3's.

cherimoya_kid,

Quote

Tamukha, I'm going to need you to address the issue of a high-fat diet being useful against epilepsy.

Uh, I could take a stab at it, but that was pborst writing that

Your instantaneous extreme response to fruit was bizarre, I must say; did you see a clinician about it to have tests done? It would have been useful to know what was happening to your cardiovascular system and brain on a chemical level in those moments.

I myself have never experienced what you describe except when I was a meat eater. Back in those days, I would occasionally be overwhelmed by an irrational feeling of being trapped or oppressed and needing to escape it geographically. Like at the movies or the mall! I knew this was abnormal to my personality. It appears that my omnivorous diet was unhealthy for me, though not for the rest of my family.

This is my point: your response to high fruit/low fat was not like everyone else's, typically. Warning us that we may end up like you is helpful and fair, but implying that ending up like you is inevitable, well, it could just as easily go the other way.

I guess we have to remember that everyone is different, whilst one may thrive on a particular diet, it may be anothers worst nightmare.

I have to say especially coming from a history of intense anxiety and panic attacks that back then fruit especially ones such as watermelon would cause me intense panic attacks. I could feel it half way through eating a watermelon everytime, first i would get shakey, intense fatigue, cold/fluey type symptoms and mass panic attacks. I suspect this was due to severe adrenal fatigue and dysbiosis(candida/bacterial overgrowth) as when testing blood sugars they were always spot on.

Now that im better i can eat as much fruit as i wish which is great as a vegan, but i do understand where others often run into problems. I did a traditional cooked low fat diet at one point also when not knowingly i was suffering from fat malabsorption due to my gallbladder/liver stagnating and the low fat diet brought on the most intense dread and depression i had ever experienced, and yes i was eating enough calories.

But yeah everyone is different, people often have underlying health problems they don't even know about which can cause some to react adversely to more restrictive diets. Im still not sure how healthy any low macronutrient diet is long term whether that be low carb, fat or protein.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2012 01:49PM by powerlifer.

Chris,

thanks for sharing. not to be blunt, but just to be clear eating fruit ...any fruit has not been linked to "panic attacks". If someone has general data for a specific fruit or fruits, I'm sure we would all benefit. It has not been my experience and I'm not even doing 80-10-10, doing Furhman. We all have our stories. Fruit isn't my issue. ... there is another one.

Paul

It could have been a few reasons why fruit increased my panic attacks.

One logical explanation was that i was allergic to the fruits i was eating at the time because my adrenal glands were so weak. Gluten, wheat, MSG and such also caused me similar symptoms of shakeyness, fatigue, panic attacks and all round horrible feelings.

Other was that my gut was in so bad shape after alcohol, low stomach acid for years and in turn candida/bacterial overgrowth, so most sugar adversely effected me.

Since getting well, now i eat alot of fruit and am fine from it. At that time most foods effected me in one or another whether healthy or not. Just my 2 cents.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chris,
>
> thanks for sharing. not to be blunt, but just to
> be clear eating fruit ...any fruit has not been
> linked to "panic attacks".


Thanks for sharing. Not to be blunt, but I LIVED it. ROFL

"Fruit hasn't been linked to panic attacks"...what the heck is that? How WOULD it be "officially" linked? Exactly which governmental or private organization has the money and the motivation to do some kind of long-term, full-scale study of this?

You're trying to hold this to some kind of ridiculous standard of proof here. 80/10/10 doesn't work, long-term, and if you don't believe me, try it and get sick. Go for it. You're an adult, you can handle your own consequences.

But you know the saddest thing about it? The fact the the brain deterioration eventually damage your judgment, so you're less likely to be able to clearly judge the cause of your problems. THAT is what's both sad and insidious.

And I know I'm not the only one with these panic attack issues. Most of the 80/10/10ers I've actually talked to in real life have confessed these types of issues.

Particularly the sense of constant DREAD that pervades you, in between the sugar highs. THAT is very unpleasant. It's also very common on 80/10/10, from the people I've talked to.

I don't understand that people still believe that if you eat fat, then your body will use that fat to produce fat of it's own, and it's the same thing with protein. The fact is, that your body will take the basic raw materials from whatever, and build what it needs. All food from whatever source will be broken down to the basic raw materials before it is used or stored. So, where does an elephant get its fat from, or a gorilla, or a bull?

Also, I don't really believe that the body will allow only a thinning of the myelin sheath. Like, there's only X amount of nutrients that are available to only thinly coat the nerve axons or to replace lost tissue etc. Some of those axons are over a metre in length.

I've also read about the correlation between the myelin sheath and dairy protein, which is directly linked to MS. Although, I was thinking that what the Kid was describing sounded alot like the symptoms of withdrawal (panic/paranoia etc). And when he said that it would worsen after he ate fruit, like oranges, well I know Prof. Ehret said not to break a 'fast' with fruit (esp citrus) due to the strong detox effect it has. Ehret said that citrus dissolves stored toxic substances into the blood stream where they are then carried to various points to await elimination from the body. He suggested that the presence of these toxic substances in the blood could stimulate a craving for foods a person is trying to eliminate from their diet, or various other experiences from previously ingested medications, drugs etc.

I personally have experienced acute paranoia from a too fast withdrawal from prescription benzodiazepines. And I would like to see a study that showed a strong correlation between low dietary fat intake and the thinning of the myelin sheath.

i am on month 7 and feeling better in my life than ever before!

life vs lifelessness

cherimoya_kid Wrote:

>
> Thanks for sharing. Not to be blunt, but I LIVED
> it. ROFL

Yes, you've made that point. And also tried to make absurd unsupported and contradicted assertions that your experience applies to everyone else.

> "Fruit hasn't been linked to panic attacks"...what
> the heck is that? How WOULD it be "officially"
> linked? Exactly which governmental or private
> organization has the money and the motivation to
> do some kind of long-term, full-scale study of
> this?

You're missing the point sport. You asserted. The burden of proof is on you,not me. You are the one coming in here making blanket unsupported assertions. I'm simply asking you to pony up and share your data. Surely you a study, any study, even case control. No?? I thought not. You have nothing but your experience and your opinion. I'm not impressed or convinced.

>
> You're trying to hold this to some kind of
> ridiculous standard of proof here. 80/10/10
> doesn't work, long-term, and if you don't believe
> me, try it and get sick. Go for it. You're an
> adult, you can handle your own consequences.

Nope, just asking you to prove your case which you can't do because you have no data, no support, just your conjecture. Ever take a basic statistics class? I'm guessing not. Because if you did, you'd know you need a representative sample and an idea of the census or population. You'd need to control for confounding factors (could something else cause your panic attack??). But you don't have any of that much less an explanation for why just about everyone on this board who does 80-10-10 has a different experience than you. You have nothing.

> But you know the saddest thing about it? The fact
> the the brain deterioration eventually damage your
> judgment, so you're less likely to be able to
> clearly judge the cause of your problems. THAT is
> what's both sad and insidious.

Projecting here. Speak for yourself

>
> And I know I'm not the only one with these panic
> attack issues. Most of the 80/10/10ers I've
> actually talked to in real life have confessed
> these types of issues.
>
More conjecture more anecdotes, more needless fear mongering.

> Particularly the sense of constant DREAD that
> pervades you, in between the sugar highs. THAT is
> very unpleasant. It's also very common on
> 80/10/10, from the people I've talked to.

"from the people I've talked to"? that's your authority? that's your data?

You haven't met any burden of proof, nor can your assertions be verified. I'm not losing any sleep.

You guys, please. This is an interesting conversation to follow but the agro is not contributing anything but angst. Come on now, disagree and discuss it but keep it civil. I'm enjoying the back and forth so far just... be nice please.

The burden of proof is not on me. The burden of proof is on anyone who claims humans are designed for a low-fat, mostly-fruit diet.

Physical anthropologists would laugh at the idea that humans ever ate such a diet.

And as far as fruit causing detox,I was HOPING someone would try that one out on me. It's completely without any merit.

Why? Common sense, and fasting theory, would tell you that the fastest detox would come during a water fast. So if I panicked after eating fruit, I should panic even more on a long water fast, right? Except the opposite happens. Fasting makes me calm, mellow, and very clear-headed. Every time.

As for how large herbivores get so big and fat? Their diets are high in fat. Dark leafy greens are actually quite fatty. There are no large creatures that eat a very low-fat diet that's high in fruit. Chimps are as big as it gets, and they're smaller than we are.

leakey isn't laughting cherimya_kid
are you ok?

life vs lifelessness

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The burden of proof is not on me. The burden of
> proof is on anyone who claims humans are designed
> for a low-fat, mostly-fruit diet.

Sorry, your assertion and claim, your burden of proof.

> Physical anthropologists would laugh at the idea
> that humans ever ate such a diet.

What humans ate or didn't eat is beyond the point. It's what we eat now and how healthy we are and how compassionate we are.

>
> And as far as fruit causing detox,I was HOPING
> someone would try that one out on me. It's
> completely without any merit.
>
> Why? Common sense, and fasting theory, would tell
> you that the fastest detox would come during a
> water fast. So if I panicked after eating fruit,
> I should panic even more on a long water fast,
> right? Except the opposite happens. Fasting
> makes me calm, mellow, and very clear-headed.
> Every time.
>
> As for how large herbivores get so big and fat?
> Their diets are high in fat. Dark leafy greens
> are actually quite fatty. There are no large
> creatures that eat a very low-fat diet that's high
> in fruit. Chimps are as big as it gets, and
> they're smaller than we are.

Your point?

cK,

I can't edit my post because John's silliness about edits. That said, you aren't vegan. By your own admission you are raw Paleo and originally came here complaining about "Harley" et al trolling on your board. I will put it back to you sport. You are doing the same thing here that you originally and inaccurately complained about when you came here. Even though some of us, myself included, have issues with Harley and Freelea, I take exception for you to come here and violate terms of service day after day and troll. Knock it off. Coco, I'm sorry if you cannot distinguish between the shades of gray. I won't back down.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2012 05:35PM by pborst.

Roxeli,
You looked great,even before.

My 2 cents worth on the whole fat issue is that I was heavilly into bodybuilding in the 80's,and the low fat craze was in full swing.Plus the advice in all the magazines were saying to cut out as much fat as possible to get that "cut" look.
I was probably consuming less than 15 grams of fat per day.
I eventually went on to experience bizarre anxieties,and even perceptual changes,particularly with my vision.Social anxiety was a gig problem too.I couldnt even grocery shop or eat alone in a restaraunt. Even had to go into the hospital when all this got to where I was non functional.
These days I eat plenty of avacado,nuts,and flax oil,and I rarely experience anything out of sorts.

Vinny

eaglefly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Roxeli,
> You looked great,even before.
>
> My 2 cents worth on the whole fat issue is that I
> was heavilly into bodybuilding in the 80's,and the
> low fat craze was in full swing.Plus the advice in
> all the magazines were saying to cut out as much
> fat as possible to get that "cut" look.
> I was probably consuming less than 15 grams of fat
> per day.
> I eventually went on to experience bizarre
> anxieties,and even perceptual changes,particularly
> with my vision.Social anxiety was a gig problem
> too.I couldnt even grocery shop or eat alone in a
> restaraunt. Even had to go into the hospital when
> all this got to where I was non functional.
> These days I eat plenty of avacado,nuts,and flax
> oil,and I rarely experience anything out of
> sorts.



Yep.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cK,
>
> I can't edit my post because John's silliness
> about edits. That said, you aren't vegan. By
> your own admission you are raw Paleo and
> originally came here complaining about "Harley" et
> al trolling on your board. I will put it back to
> you sport. You are doing the same thing here that
> you originally and inaccurately complained about
> when you came here. Even though some of us,
> myself included, have issues with Harley and
> Freelea, I take exception for you to come here and
> violate terms of service day after day and troll.
> Knock it off. Coco, I'm sorry if you cannot
> distinguish between the shades of gray. I won't
> back down.
>
> Paul


It's not trolling to talk about the importance of dietary fat. Do you understand the definition of the word? I'm not trolling. In exactly ZERO posts in this thread have I mentioned eating animal products. That would be trolling, but I haven't done it.

And if you people "have issues" with DR and his fellow 80/10/10 trolls, then talk to the mod. That's not my problem.

And how were my original complaints "inaccurate"? I had to ban DR himself at least 8 or 10 times. I eventually stopped posting on my own forum fot about 8 months, because I got so tired of him and his fellow trolls. It was ridiculous. I would be willing to bet every penny I have (which ain't much, ROFL) that at least 1 or two posters here BESIDES DR have trolled my site. I'm not naming names because I don't actually care to research who it might be, but nevertheless, I would bet on it.

So , in conclusion, stop trolling my site, and recognize that I'm right about 80/10/10.

> It's not trolling to talk about the importance of
> dietary fat. Do you understand the definition of
> the word? I'm not trolling. In exactly ZERO
> posts in this thread have I mentioned eating
> animal products. That would be trolling, but I
> haven't done it.

Maybe that's your definition of trolling in someone else book sport, yours maybe. Not mine. you've made it clear that you're being paleo in prior threads and this is just a continuation on the same theme. You mentioned raw milk, raw goats milk. no smoking gun needed. We can all see the gun. So yeah. You've done it.

>
> And if you people "have issues" with DR and his
> fellow 80/10/10 trolls, then talk to the mod.
> That's not my problem.

kind of mischacterizing the hate speech after you ruffled the feathers isn't it. You came here on a thread in November complaining to all of us on this forum that Harley was trolling. and now you are here doing the same thing. More's the pity.

> And how were my original complaints "inaccurate"?
> I had to ban DR himself at least 8 or 10 times. I
> eventually stopped posting on my own forum fot
> about 8 months, because I got so tired of him and
> his fellow trolls. It was ridiculous. I would be
> willing to bet every penny I have (which ain't
> much, ROFL) that at least 1 or two posters here
> BESIDES DR have trolled my site. I'm not naming
> names because I don't actually care to research
> who it might be, but nevertheless, I would bet on
> it.

Nobody on rawfoodsupport.com cares who's trolling your site, some care that you are trolling ours without cause, begone troll.


>
> So , in conclusion, stop trolling my site, and
> recognize that I'm right about 80/10/10.

In conclusion you came here uninformed, uninvited and tried to fear monger and threaten without welcome or warrant. It's a legacy you will live with. but not my problem just now. begone troll.

Paul



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2012 08:29PM by pborst.