PRANA... i like what you said about the emotional stuff... and the body being able to 'deal' 'release' it (can't remember your exact words..! )

but i try to be aware of this.,... old emotions/feelings/inbalances and disturbances inside we are not aware of... detoxing through raw diet (even the important transitional stages where i am at) i think its important to remember there is alot more going on in our bodies besides the physical... mentally, emotionally and energectically there is a lot happening, and the detox process brings alot of this up.

sorry this isint stricktly about the feed... Just thought Prana made a good point earlier.

This is interesting to hear everyones view on 80/10/10 and low fat/high fruit.

personally like powerlife says... each individual is different. We are on our own journeys... its up to us to find whats right and works for us

Yes gems, Prana had a good point.

And Kiddo, I tried to find the book by Ehret describing the citrus thing, but I can't. I did come across abit in his book, 'Rational Fasting' where he talks about a guy who fasted for a week, broke his fast with dates and died from the effects.

I quote from p51, 'In the first case, the terrible poisons loosened in the stomach of this one-sided meat eater during his fast when mixed with the concentrated fruit sugar of the dates, caused at once so great a fermentation with carbonic acid gases and other poisons, that the patient could not stand the shock.'

So what you say re a water fast is likely true, the reaction of that first meal can stir up those poisons from the water fast too greatly, and cause a massive overload. Unless, of course the faster is already pretty clean, in which case fruit would be ok IMO. And that is also common sense IMO hahaha.

The thing is, that without evidence from controlled studies, as Paul has already said, and he is correct in what he has said btw, it's all conjecture.
And that goes for all of us, including Prof. Ehret. What we have experienced is right for us, and only us. And even then, as Paul says, there maybe a confounding variable that has caused or influenced the results. So can we be so sure that what we say is actually true, even for us?

And tell me, what leafy greens have heaps of fat? Is that on the level, please name some? And were you suggesting that animals that don't eat plenty of fat are stunted? You seemed to suggest that chimps are as big as they are because they apparently don't eat enough fat in their diet. Now that's getting abit on the fanciful side, and you'll have everyone laughing about that ROFL.

Purslane is very high in omegas but that's the only green I've heard of that has that.

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes gems, Prana had a good point.
>
> And Kiddo, I tried to find the book by Ehret
> describing the citrus thing, but I can't. I did
> come across abit in his book, 'Rational Fasting'
> where he talks about a guy who fasted for a week,
> broke his fast with dates and died from the
> effects.
>
> I quote from p51, 'In the first case, the terrible
> poisons loosened in the stomach of this one-sided
> meat eater during his fast when mixed with the
> concentrated fruit sugar of the dates, caused at
> once so great a fermentation with carbonic acid
> gases and other poisons, that the patient could
> not stand the shock.'
>
> So what you say re a water fast is likely true,
> the reaction of that first meal can stir up those
> poisons from the water fast too greatly, and cause
> a massive overload. Unless, of course the faster
> is already pretty clean, in which case fruit would
> be ok IMO. And that is also common sense IMO
> hahaha.
>
> The thing is, that without evidence from
> controlled studies, as Paul has already said, and
> he is correct in what he has said btw, it's all
> conjecture.

>
> And tell me, what leafy greens have heaps of fat?
> Is that on the level, please name some? And were
> you suggesting that animals that don't eat plenty
> of fat are stunted? You seemed to suggest that
> chimps are as big as they are because they
> apparently don't eat enough fat in their diet. Now
> that's getting abit on the fanciful side, and
> you'll have everyone laughing about that ROFL.


No, Prana does not have a good point. Emotional detox is a temporary thing, it comes and goes, and having predictable panic attacks after every fruit meal for months on end is NOT emotional detox. Dr. D might characterize it as such, but he's clueless.

As far as greens having fat, I just checked spinach, and it gets twice as much calories from fat as from carbs. Most of the calories are actually from protein, though.

Speaking of protein, that's another thing that is badly deficient on 80/10/10. Notice how all the athletic abilities that 80/10/10ers display are of the aerobic endurance variety? That's because things like weightlifting are much more difficult unless you're getting at least 25% or so of your calories from protein. A lot of weightlifters recommend 30%, but I think that's excessive.

My point about chimps is that it is simply impossible to gain very much bulk on a mostly-fruit diet. Orangutans can get up to 250 pounds on eating mostly wild durian, but that's the absolute upper limit in nature, and wild durian are very dry and nutrient rich. They also violate 80/10/10, they've got way more fat than that diet allows.

geo... arnold ehret's 'mucusless diet healing system' you recomened it to me... ii think its a really good read... and yes i remember him saying about the dates breaking the fast thing!

cherimoya_kid,

Having followed 80/10/10, you should know the precept, "Fruit for carbs, greens for protein" as well as, "Fruit for vitamins, greens for minerals." We know that greens contain some EFAs, but not huge amounts, which is why Graham, etc., don't discourage the consumption of fat, in general.

Don't know what you are implying here:

Quote

Speaking of protein, that's another thing that is badly deficient on 80/10/10. Notice how all the athletic abilities that 80/10/10ers display are of the aerobic endurance variety?

Going to assume you aren't suggesting that endurance athletes are somehow inferior physical specimens as compared to body builders, as that's likewise in the realm of the subjective. And potentially offensive to some of us!

Joel Fuhrman has pointed out that the body builder physique is contrary to longevity. Proceed at your own risk if you want to make 90 in reasonably good health. Raising metabolism is a mistake. You want to make it as low it can be. No joke if you are concerned about being around a while.

Paul

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joel Fuhrman has pointed out that the body builder
> physique is contrary to longevity. Proceed at
> your own risk if you want to make 90 in reasonably
> good health. Raising metabolism is a mistake.
> You want to make it as low it can be. No joke if
> you are concerned about being around a while.
>
> Paul

Wouldn't that mean that exercise was a no no if raising metabolism was unhealthy Paul ?.

Bodybuilding doesn't have to be unhealthy, sure many of the professional bodybuilders aren't in good health mostly due to there overly large frame and cycling endless amounts of steroids and other junk.

But many natural bodybuilders are in good health especially compared to the average. Probably due to regular exercise and healthy diet.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Joel Fuhrman has pointed out that the body
> builder
> > physique is contrary to longevity. Proceed at
> > your own risk if you want to make 90 in
> reasonably
> > good health. Raising metabolism is a mistake.
>
> > You want to make it as low it can be. No joke
> if
> > you are concerned about being around a while.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Wouldn't that mean that exercise was a no no if
> raising metabolism was unhealthy Paul ?.

No it doesn't mean that. It means that there is a point of diminishing returns and with respect to strength building there is a real trade off. As with all tradeoffs, you have to decide what you are trading. Those Okinawans weren't body builders. When was the last centarian body builder you saw? [www.drfuhrman.com]

>
> Bodybuilding doesn't have to be unhealthy, sure
> many of the professional bodybuilders aren't in
> good health mostly due to there overly large frame
> and cycling endless amounts of steroids and other
> junk.
>
> But many natural bodybuilders are in good health
> especially compared to the average. Probably due
> to regular exercise and healthy diet.
>
> [www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Chris, I honestly can't say. I aspire to keep the strength I had in my 20s and nothing more. I'm 52 and feeling fine. Best.

Paul



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 06:29PM by pborst.

I see he mentions one way to lower the resting metabolic rate is by caloric restriction, not something i believe in im afraid.

Exercise is a fairly big trade off with the amount of benefits that it has to offer such as cardiovascular disease reduction, diabetes, boosting the immune system etc. Systematic under-eating is not going to be helpful for aiding and supporting athletic performance.

There is a wealth of research into the benefits of high intensity training mostly due to how it increases the resting metabolic rate and in turn better cardiovascular, weight loss benefits etc.

Also the studies were only done on animals, theres no way to know for sure if caloric restriction and increased longevity would apply to humans also. Unless there are other studies. Again in my opinion the trade off for purposely lowering metabolism would not outweigh the benefits above for me.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 06:57PM by powerlifer.

Jeff Goldblum in the Big Chill..rationalizations... where would we be without them.

Chris, I think you can look at the data same as the rest of us. Body building from what I see and hear is not a good thing. Here's from Joel page 123 of Super Immunity.

"Exercise, not extra protein, builds strength, denser bones and biggest muscles. When you artificially stimulate growth with overfeeding and excessive animal product consumption, you may achieve brightened body mass index (a weight-to-height ratio) but this will add fat to your body as well. Let me caution that a higher body mass index, even if that additional body mass is mostly muscle is linked to an earlier death. Large football players have over tiwce the risk of early cardiace death than the general population, with many of them dying before their fifieth birthday. Out of more than 600 hundred Olympic athletes on the East German 1964 Olympic team, fewer than 10 are alive today.... " read the rest on Super Immunity. Your body is an engine. You quicker your work it, the quicker it wears out. Best.

Paul

That is only partially true, without adequate protein and other nutrients you will not build a great deal of muscle at all other than the newbie gains from natural adaptation. You know the saying that building muscle starts in the kitchen. One of the main reasons for most making little to no gains with weight lifting is an inadequate diet, you see these people in the gym all the time, lifting year after year with very little to show for it, then they see how much muscle some of the other lifters pack on in a year all because they are consistent with their diet.

Bodybuilding isn't straight forward there are healthy and unhealthy ways to acheive hypertrophy gains. He is right in that in order to bulk up you will put on some degree of fat, eating a clean diet can be helpful in this regard to minimizing fat and increasing muscle mass. How healthy and clean your diet is will be one of the deciding factors, the professional bodybuilding scene is dominated by individuals consuming large amounts of junk food due to how dense a calorie source most junk food is. But there are many bodybuilders who adhere to healthy diets and are of good health. Regular exercise being the key.

He mentions animal foods and i do agree with him in this regard that excessive consumption of animal food isn't healthy, this alone would reduce longevity as we know from studies. Citing a few references to football players and such not knowing the other factors that may have influenced their risk of early death from cardiac conditions isn't really proof that bodybuilding is harmful. If the majority of these players consumed high meat and/or fat diets would probably be the main reason, again there are plenty of athletes and bodybuilders who consume healthy diets.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 07:31PM by powerlifer.

and you have the last word, Chris! best

Paul

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and you have the last word, Chris! best
>
> Paul

Don't know if i have took this the wrong way but didn't mean to rile you if i did Paul, i was only offering my opinion onto Joels thoughts.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

No my friend, you didn't rile me. Your opinion is invaluable. I'm still learning what you taught me about jiao gulan over maca roota as an adaptogen. I have much to learn. Keeping my ears open.. best.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 07:57PM by pborst.

I wasn't implying that endurance athletes are inferior physical specimens. I don't have a strong opinion on the issue of weightlifting versus endurance training.

The point I was TRYING to make (apparently unsuccessfully) is that it's impossible to build muscle when you're eating only 10% of your calories as protein.

Re: exercise and longevity, I'd say moderation is the smart path. Too little exercise, and you lose flexibility and strength, and have higher risk of stroke, diabetes, heart attack, etc.. Too much, and you risk joint/tendon/ligament damage, as well as excessive production of free radicals, which cause aging.

I actually have a lot more to say on the subject on physical training and related subjects. I'm not sure this is the best thread for that, though.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No my friend, you didn't rile me. Your opinion is
> invaluable. I'm still learning what you taught me
> about jiao gulan over maca roota as an adaptogen.
> I have much to learn. Keeping my ears open..
> best.
>
> Paul

, hope i didn't come across as acting like a wise acre, was just i had a differing of opinion to Joels. Did you ever get round to trying the jiaogulan in the end Paul ?. Jiaogulan is one if not the richest plant source of sterols also, amazing herb.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Not at all Chris. Joel isn't God. I value Joel's input as I value yours. Never any doubt. Yes, I have tried jiaogulan and i'm impressed. would like a side bar Chris if you have the time. Best.

Paul


powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No my friend, you didn't rile me. Your opinion
> is
> > invaluable. I'm still learning what you taught
> me
> > about jiao gulan over maca roota as an
> adaptogen.
> > I have much to learn. Keeping my ears open..
> > best.
> >
> > Paul
>
> , hope i didn't come across as acting like a
> wise acre, was just i had a differing of opinion
> to Joels. Did you ever get round to trying the
> jiaogulan in the end Paul ?. Jiaogulan is one if
> not the richest plant source of sterols also,
> amazing herb.
>
> [www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

As is your input Paul nice one glad you enjoyed jiaogulan. Im quite slow this evening sorry but not sure what you mean by side bar Paul ?. Another interesting herb and adaptogen is Holy Basil aka Tulsi if you haven't heard of it. Anyway thats another thread.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2012 08:45PM by powerlifer.

Chris,

Side bar meaning another time, thread. no matter. Yes I've tried jiao gulan and I reacted unfortunately. going to cut the dosage in 1/2 and see how she goes. Best.

Paul

Chris and pborst - that was interesting reading and I really appreciated the respect and friendly tone that you showed each other - something that is often lacking on this board. Your topic has given me food for thought - thank you - I'm thinking about that stuff now for myself; I'm sure that doesn't happen when there has been an acrimonious interchange.

Jan,

It's Paul. Borst is my surname. Not sure what the thank you is for, Chris and I are old friends. And Chris and I don't troll but you are welcome.

Paul

Overall, I accually believe that our heredity and DNA are the main factors when it comes to size or bulk. However, I would never try to convince anyone that my diet is the ants pants or the bees knees haha. We ARE all different when it comes down to minor variables, even if we do generally share the same physiology.

As far as 811 is concerned, I reckon that it's a pretty good program. I don't follow it personally, as the only criteria that I do try and follow, is to eat mainly base forming (alkaline) foods. Now that narrows it down to mainly fruits and vegies, although I do eat plenty of nuts, esp cashews (sometimes with a little vegy salt, sorry, it's my one vice haha).

I don't measure what I eat into percentage portions either, even if I'm doing some weights, I don't consciously increase my nut/seed intake for the extra protein. I'm trying to let my body decide that, you know, during the day I might FEEL like some wallnuts etc. But if a person is roughly dividing their food into 811, then would you increase the protein percentages, would I be right in saying that guys???

That's one thing I've noticed, that while I haven't bulked up much, I became stronger with what muscular I had. It was as if my muscles became more efficient, rather than added bulk. The only place I did bulk up in, was my stomach (six-pack) from all the 'palates' and 'yoga' exercises. I read that instead of added muscle, more and more neurons would fire, therefore activating more muscle tissue, which equals added strength. So, even though I didn't look as 'big' as most other guys at the gym, I was pretty much as strong as they....

Cheers, geo

"realise that i am right"

good job pborst

this kid seems so emotional and intollerant . at least there is solidarity and the science of diet is solid.

life vs lifelessness



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2012 10:51AM by Diogenez.

I definitely agree that muscle size is at least 50% inherited. Strength can be too. However, I definitely have known very thin people with little muscle mass who were quite strong, so strength and size are not 100% correlated, or anything like it.

Diogenez, if the science of diet were solid, there wouldn't be arguments on message boards about it so much. The whole reason for boards like this is because there are so many lies and half-truths spread about diet in the US. Also, people vary tremendously in what foods will work for them, which further complicates things. You're baiting me for a reaction, aren't you?

Diogenez Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> good job pborst
>
> .... . at
> least there is solidarity and the science of diet
> is solid.

agreed. Thanks.

Paul - why did you correct me and say your name is Paul when you didn't mention it to Diogenez above?

Really I think that English is not translated into American sometimes - I didn't realise my grateful post could be so misunderstood - troll? sorry I'm not with you.

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul - why did you correct me and say your name is
> Paul when you didn't mention it to Diogenez
> above?

You have been around a little longer than he or she has. Figured if you maintained that degree of formality, must be some reason I'm not party to. Just sounds weird to somebody who I talk to on a first name basis calling me by my surname.

>
> Really I think that English is not translated into
> American sometimes

hmmm... think I will let that one go.

- I didn't realise my grateful
> post could be so misunderstood - troll? sorry I'm
> not with you.

Jan, I'm sorry if you misread my reference to troll towards present company. It wasn't. My point was I'm civil with those who are civil with me and so forth. Chris and I can have give and take because we are friends who've known each other a while and if I can take a liberty have helped each other. at least he has helped me.

I've enjoyed our conversations too Jan, not that you need any validation here. Just wanted to clarify I have never considered you to be a troll. We've had our disagreements, it's true. But that is a very different thing from trolling.

Paul

Kid - I did agree about muscle bulk and strength, though I'm not so sure about strength being inherited, it maybe true though. Again, do you have access to any studies that back your statement???

What I did ask was...'Would a person on 811 adjust their protein intake to say 15% if they were wanting to increase their muscle bulk or strength'??? I'm not only asking the Kid, but all on this forum.

I also mentioned that personally, I prefer to let my body do the math, rather than to measure everything. However, just thinking of what I eat each day, my diet would probably be quite close to 811 anyway. Actually, taking that into the equasion would also

Cheers,
geo

Sorry, I accidently hit 'Post message' button. Therefore, to continue....'Actually, in my mind that would also add to the validity of the 811 diet as being quite adequate for humanity.'