Cherimoya, on what basis can you claim that other people experience is temporary? Is my experience temporary? Perhaps your experience is temporary?

High Brix? Why complicate things? I use taste as my way of choosing foods, which is the best mechanism of satisfying my body needs on a raw food diet. High Brix foods taste better by the way.


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cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And Harley trolls my board.
> Everything I've done here is in response to those
> two facts.
>

So you become what you despise how does that work for you?

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cherimoya, on what basis can you claim that other
> people experience is temporary? Is my experience
> temporary? Perhaps your experience is temporary?
>
> High Brix? Why complicate things? I use taste as
> my way of choosing foods, which is the best
> mechanism of satisfying my body needs on a raw
> food diet. High Brix foods taste better by the
> way.

None of you are getting it. I'm not forcing ANYTHING on ANYBODY.

Coco, DR is one of the most obnoxious members of this forum, EVER. I know, because I was a regular poster here back in 2000-2003. He pretty much beats them all. He even plays his game on MY forum. I'm not just randomly COMING here. It's in response to his inexplicable behavior. Stop acting like I'm the source of any of the rancor over this. I...am...reacting. Dr D and DR and 80/10/10 were/are forcing themselves on the raw food community. I am responding to that. Fat avoidance is not a necessary part of raw foodism. It's just not integral to the concept. How is that not obvious?

The guy ran me off my own forum. He trolls freely here, and you know what? That's not cool with me. This forum was where I first went to learn about raw foodism, and it displeases me when it's full of trollishness. I want it to be a place where people can learn, not a DR trollathon. Even if it's a vegan stronghold now, it's still a place to start.

I was a big enough fool to follow Dr D's advice even after it was clear it was hurting me. I'm trying to save other gullible, strong-willed people like myself from that. Sometimes willpower can be so strong that it becomes a liability, and my willpower sure WAS.

Sure, some people stop when they are being damaged. I don't. That's when Dr D's diet gets really dangerous. Strong-willed people need to avoid extreme paths like that, you know? The only thing that stopped me was that I thought eating all-wild food might be even more important than 80/10/10, and I was in Costa Rica, and had access to lots of coconuts. That's the only reason I stopped. I'd probably be dead or in a hospital or mental institution, otherwise.

As far as Brix goes, whatever. It's way more "complicated" to deal with illness than to just spend 10 seconds testing a drop of juice. Yes I KNOW high Brix foods taste better. They also generally are more dense, because they are higher in minerals. However, using a Brix meter is an excellent way to learn how to identify good produce because it's a good objective measure. It keeps you from fooling yourself.

Objective measures? Any human-made nutritional rules are at best some approximate ways of modeling the real-life processes that are not and cannot be understood in its full complexity. Nothing objective about it at all.


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cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> None of you are getting it. I'm not forcing
> ANYTHING on ANYBODY.

No you are making biased unsubstantiated claims with not scientific backup despite 5 pages of requests to do for.
>
> Coco, DR is one of the most obnoxious members of
> this forum, EVER.
a matter of opinion, yours, not everyones

I know, because I was a regular
> poster here back in 2000-2003. He pretty much
> beats them all. He even plays his game on MY
> forum. I'm not just randomly COMING here. It's in
> response to his inexplicable behavior. Stop
> acting like I'm the source of any of the rancor
> over this. I...am...reacting.

try being proactive instead of reactive it might render you more favorable results. if you dont agree with harley and dr.d .. set the record strait and prove what you say.

Dr D and DR and
> 80/10/10 were/are forcing themselves on the raw
> food community. I am responding to that. Fat
> avoidance is not a necessary part of raw foodism.
> It's just not integral to the concept. How is that
> not obvious?

we are all individuals with our own ability to choose nobody is forcing anybody to do anything they dont want to do/try and nobody is asking you to swoop in and save us all from our 80/10/10 selves with heresay and unsubstantiated claims

>
> The guy ran me off my own forum.

nobody can run you off from anywhere if you cant deal with it adn chose to leave that is your choice .. you are blaming someone else for YOUR actions again being reactive



He trolls freely
> here, and you know what? That's not cool with me.
> This forum was where I first went to learn about
> raw foodism, and it displeases me when it's full
> of trollishness. I want it to be a place where
> people can learn, not a DR trollathon. Even if
> it's a vegan stronghold now, it's still a place to
> start.
>
> I was a big enough fool to follow Dr D's advice
> even after it was clear it was hurting me.

You didnt by your own admissionfollow his advice tho your diet was lacking in all ares and very limited .. you should be blaming your inability to understand it rather then pointing the finger at someone else.



I'm
> trying to save other gullible, strong-willed
> people like myself from that. Sometimes willpower
> can be so strong that it becomes a liability, and
> my willpower sure WAS.

Save your saving for those that ask for your saving .. who here is asking for you to save them?



>
> Sure, some people stop when they are being
> damaged. I don't. That's when Dr D's diet gets
> really dangerous. Strong-willed people need to
> avoid extreme paths like that, you know? The only
> thing that stopped me was that I thought eating
> all-wild food might be even more important than
> 80/10/10, and I was in Costa Rica, and had access
> to lots of coconuts. That's the only reason I
> stopped. I'd probably be dead or in a hospital or
> mental institution, otherwise.

draaammmaaaaa

>
> As far as Brix goes, whatever. It's way more
> "complicated" to deal with illness than to just
> spend 10 seconds testing a drop of juice. Yes I
> KNOW high Brix foods taste better. They also
> generally are more dense, because they are higher
> in minerals. However, using a Brix meter is an
> excellent way to learn how to identify good
> produce because it's a good objective measure. It
> keeps you from fooling yourself.

brix is awesome that is about the only thing i can agree with you with

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

What is Brix? Please just tell me, don't give me a link to a youtube video etc.

Thanks

LOL DR is obnoxious. No argument there! He's not part of this forum on a massive scale though, don't lump us in with him please. He comes here and spams his vids and posts about being skinny and sexy etc. It's not like he contributes to discussion or participates in debates aside from relentlessly telling anybody who's not doing it his way that they are wrong.
I'm sorry to say, his approach reminds me of yours.
You may be a nice person but so far what I've seen here is pretty aggressive. You are VERY adamant that you know better than others and are determined to "save" them from themselves. Kinda arrogant dude. Let people walk their own path regardless of whether you think they're doing it wrong. It's not up to you, you have your own life to live and gotta let others live theirs. Respect.

The only reason Durianrider comes around here once or twice a month is to spam 6-7 of his videos at one. He doesn't care about this forum or helping others, his intention is to come here spam and increase traffic to his videos and earnings. The irony is that he is nothing more than an 80/10/10 cash cow and then has the nerve to slander other raw personalities for doing the same thing

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Objective measures? Any human-made nutritional
> rules are at best some approximate ways of
> modeling the real-life processes that are not and
> cannot be understood in its full complexity.

You have to start somewhere. Instinct damaged by a lifetime of SAD-eating has to be retrained.

Do the right thing. Apologize. You know you owe it to the people you've maligned here. Just give it and get on with life.




cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rawgosia Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Objective measures? Any human-made nutritional
> > rules are at best some approximate ways of
> > modeling the real-life processes that are not
> and
> > cannot be understood in its full complexity.
>
> You have to start somewhere. Instinct damaged by a
> lifetime of SAD-eating has to be retrained.

yeah whatever.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2012 08:07PM by cherimoya_kid.

"You have to start somewhere. Instinct damaged by a lifetime of SAD-eating has to be retrained."

Insticnts are not damaged. Oour ability to respond to them rather. We certainly have the ability to respond to taste of raw foods. This is a great start. Brix or any other artifical means might be helpful to some, but it is certainly not a golden goose.


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cherimoya_kid wrote...'yeah whatever'.

So, we're waiting....

You know, cherimoya_kid, a truly well intentioned person, having seen that their actions have caused offense to others, would apologize, out of sincere chagrin, and be done with it. Just saying.

...would apologize....

perhaps.

or maybe each one of us is responsible for whether we are offended or not.

and maybe being offended gives your power to the offender

fresh,

I see what you're saying, but disagree. I prefer that there be little conflict here, and that's why I don't usually initiate it. However, when someone else creates conflict that degrades a discussion, that's not good. Choosing to be offended is not what's happening here, fresh; this implies that we are just being tetchy. For someone to come here to offer an alternative experience is fine--we've all done that. But proceeding to rail against our lifestyles is not fine; it's objectively offensive. Accusing all of us of trolling another site, in spite of our assurances that we haven't, is objectively offensive. Acknowledging that this behavior is beyond the rabbit-proof fence does not cede power to the one engaging in it. Allowing the objectively offensive behavior to go unchallenged cedes power to the one engaging in it.

Most of us here, as we must be tired of saying already, would never think it OK to do what cherimoya_kid is doing here. roxeli started a nice cheerful thread about how great she's feeling on 80/10/10 and it turned into all this aggro because of this one particular poster. If I had, even in the guise of trying to be helpful, evidently harshed so many mellows, I'd feel bad about it and say I'm sorry. I get the feeling that no apology is coming, and I'm fine with that.

Insisting on getting an apology that isn't coming, now that would be ceding power!

well said. but as it has been said, nobody needed to respond to anything cherimoya said, which gives it energy and creates the strife.

nevertheless, jesus-like, i hereby apologize for cherimoya...

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well said. but as it has been said, nobody needed
> to respond to anything cherimoya said, which gives
> it energy and creates the strife.
>
> nevertheless, jesus-like, i hereby apologize for
> cherimoya...

Fresh,

I understand your point. And like Tamukha, I respectfully disagree. When someone takes it upon themselves to make unsubstantiated, unsupported claims along with irresponsible personal attacks and vague references to people they talk too, then it can become a pathology.

I understand your point, giving attention to someone who is seeking negative attention reinforces the behavior (not sure if that is a fair summary,let me know if I have your point correctly). And I think that is true to a point. 80-10-10 for better or for worse or a fruit-based low fat vegetarian diet is something that matters to a lot of people on this board. And that makes it matter.

In the spirit of candor, I would ask if I have understood your point correctly, that feeding someone who seeks negative attention reinforces the attention? Is that fair? If I haven't got it right, please let me know.

Now, I need to ask you a favor, do you understand the reverse. By failing to act or respond, the offender may simply continue offending, spreading misinformation, not accounting for themselves as they attack and troll. I would submit there is a counter-risk here of letting ourselves be inundated with propoganda, false and misleading information, and half-truths. Cherimoya kid didn't just come and spout nonsense. He made pointed personal statements about Harley Johnstone and Doug Graham. He made specific accusations and unsupported claims about 80-10-10 which matters to a lot of people here. Does it not?

So, yeah in a social situation if someone is baiting you and you don't take the bait, maybe that is a good tactic. But by the same token, if you see a cancer, cut it out. There comes a time you must draw the line! And I agree you have to pick your battles. But that should never mean you don't battle, stand up for yourself or your group. At this point, I have said my piece for poor Cherimoya Kid. I have called him out, challenged his rhetoric. And the best response I have is "yeah whatever". Others have done the same. It's still our board (John's board but our stomping ground). And it's a battle worth fighting. CK needs to own up.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2012 04:08PM by pborst.

>Now, I need to ask you a favor, do you understand the reverse. By failing to act or respond, the offender may simply continue offending, spreading misinformation, not accounting for themselves as they attack and troll. I would submit there is a counter-risk here of letting ourselves be inundated with propoganda, false and misleading information, and half-truths. Cherimoya kid didn't just come and spout nonsense. He made pointed personal statements about Harley Johnstone and Doug Graham. He made specific accusations and unsupported claims about 80-10-10 which matters to a lot of people here. Does it not?

well, you know, we all worry too much about these things i think. and we all can attempt to hold each other accountable but it is still up to each of us to evaluate any information for ourselves, and asking for apology just seemed a bit much to me, which is what prompted me to post.

Fresh,

Fair enough. Be well.

Paul

Look, whether he does or doesn't, I don't really care, but he did make a blanket statement. It's such a small thing to own up to, and if he wants to continue to be active on this site, then apologise and start again with a clean slate.

If he doesn't, well I'll just ignore him, simple as that. He does contribute at times I'll admit, but when he thinks he's right, no matter what, now that gets abit obnoxious.

I also don't require an apology, not unless the original attitude persists that we are all somehow complicit with DR in anything that he does. If that's the case, why bother to come here at all? Personally I don't see the point. The rest of the forum members (for the most part ) are here to communicate ideas with like-minded people and generally open to hearing the experience of other, be it contradictory to what is personally held dear or not. In the many years I've been visiting here there have been very few ugly blow-outs, for the most part people behave and behave well, graciously and with gratitude for all that's freely shared. Those who can't see and appreciate that? Well, it's a big internet out there...

Whatever, I'm not trying to make a drama, it's just that nobody warned me about 80/10/10. Even if the diet works lifelong for some people, I have known quite a few people who've tried it, personally, not just online, and most have had a lot of problems. Acne, anxiety, teeth problems, these are all very common.

Nobody warned me that it could, and often does, go wrong. It's as simple as that.

There's not a diet on the planet that works for everyone, all the time. There's no supplement, no food, no bit of health advice that works for everyone, all the time.

Anybody telling you different is to be taken with a grain of salt. I was gullible. If any of you are (and I know some are, it's a fairly common trait), then yeah, watch out for extreme people selling extreme paths. You know? ROFL

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Insticnts are not damaged. Oour ability to respond
> to them rather. We certainly have the ability to
> respond to taste of raw foods. This is a great
> start. Brix or any other artifical means might be
> helpful to some, but it is certainly not a golden
> goose.

The thing I think many people get fooled by is that they have never actually HAD a really high-Brix mango/apple/orange/cherimoya, and the low-Brix ones they have been eating seem normal, as a result. Sure, if you've travelled the world and eaten fruits in many different countries, you've probably had some really high-Brix versions of most fruits. However, not everybody has that broad of experience with fruit. They may be so accustomed to their low-Brix fruits available to them at home that they don't bother having higher standards.

Some people think they don't like peaches/apples/pears/etc., when what they REALLY don't like is the low Brix version that they've had before.

Sure, if you live on the Big Island of Hawaii, you have awesome local fruit available. The soil there is mostly excellent. The rest of us have to buy/gather carefully.

If I'm hammering the point home too heavily, I apologize.

I remember travelling through Indonesia in the early 70's, and marvelling at the incredible flavours of the local produce. My fav was 'gado gado' with peanut sauce...awesome.

Ok, if it's that easy for you to applogise if you've HAMMERED IT HOME re high brix, then why not apologise for branding everyone on this forum for siding with DR and trolling your site??? Come on man, do it, I'd prefer for us to be friends....

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember travelling through Indonesia in the
> early 70's, and marvelling at the incredible
> flavours of the local produce. My fav was 'gado
> gado' with peanut sauce...awesome.
>
> Ok, if it's that easy for you to applogise if
> you've HAMMERED IT HOME re high brix, then why not
> apologise for branding everyone on this forum for
> siding with DR and trolling your site??? Come on
> man, do it, I'd prefer for us to be friends....

Why won't I apologize? It's not like I can't. However, I refuse to apologize to DR's little friends here. Subtract out a couple of people, and I have no problem. They're being jerks and trolling me, baiting me, playing games, and they deserve to be ignored, not apologized to.

To be clear, I was mainly apologizing to rawgosia, who has won my heart with her kindness.

Allow me to give you a little advice on how to run a forum. Over at my forum, we have baiters/trolls/etc. too. Most flame out and get banned quickly, whereas some also have intelligent things to say sometimes. It can be a difficult decision to ban a poster that you like as a person and who also makes good contributions, but who can't be respectful and won't apologize.

My advice? Warn them directly and publicly (the "publicly" part is optional), and follow up on your threats to ban them. Do your best to win them over to good behavior, but don't publicly threaten a ban and then refuse to follow through. If you do that too much, other potential trolls will take it as a sign of weakness, and overrun you.

Abuse and baiting really are not acceptable in the long term, unless the poster can apologize, and also makes useful contributions. It's really not cool to go around baiting other posters, and I don't tolerate it for long at my forum. Of course, it rarely happens, because I directly and publicly confront baiters/trolls (and people who trend in that direction), and try to get them to commit an immediately bannable offense like threatening me, or revealing their totally trollish intent.

Certainly it's not the only way to run a forum, but it's the way I do it.

Another point I'd like to make is that supported, respectful dissent is ESSENTIAL to forums, and any effort to to stop it is foolish in the extreme.

An example? One of our mods has been doing raw foods for about 10 years or so, and the RAF thing for about 6 or 7 years. He, at one point, became rather addicted to raw dairy (and I mean ADDICTED, like a gallon a day or more), and his health started to really deteriorate in some ways. His teeth were getting so loose he was afraid they'd fall out, and he had several other distressing problems. He finally ended up stopping raw dairy altogether, even grassfed fermented raw dairy.

He is quite irate at Aajonus Vonderplanitz, a RAF guru of sorts, for recommending raw dairy so much. His thoughts and experiences on the whole thing are VERY similar to my own thoughts about Dr D and 80/10/10.

Because of his example (and constant harping on it, really, he just won't let it go), I and several of the other mods who have had good, or at least neutral experiences with raw dairy, have become much more careful about recommending it and using it.

He has good points too. It's calcium/magnesium ratio is too high, it contains addictive opioids, and it's very hard to digest, for many people.

I still use it, but I recognize its flaws and lack of balance, and definitely am on guard for the problems it can cause. I also am MUCH more careful about recommending it.

The lesson is that, if we had tried to shush him, like several of YOU are trying to do to ME, then we'd never have LEARNED anything USEFUL.

Fortunately, he is a moderator, so it's very difficult to stop him. And you know what? If it weren't for that, we probably would have ignored him.

And to those who demand evidence--find me a study of 80/10/10 in humans that follows them for at least a year or more, and I'll be happy to provide you with your 'evidence'. IF you can't, then why won't you stop acting like I have to provide something that doesn't exist? ROFL

It's not crazy to warn against an extreme dietary practice, even if you don't have multiple peer-reviewed, published studies that prove your exact point.

We're all kind of experimenting here, there's very little real data on long-term raw diets. Anecdotal data are a lot of what we have to use. Be happy with uncertainty. If you don't like it, stop studying diet, or learn to love uncertainty.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2012 06:50AM by cherimoya_kid.

Well then, you have made yourself perfectly clear. I wonder how other regulars on this forum feel about what you have just said, such as rawgosia and especially Prana. You, by your admission eat raw animal flesh, and it's effects are evident, as I'm well aware of the correlation between the regular ingestion of animal products and temperament. And while I for one will no longer reply to your posts, I hope that you are able to overcome your pride and progress to a higher consciousness.

Regards, geo

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
, I hope that you are able to
> overcome your pride and progress to a higher
> consciousness.
>

I already did that. I'm waiting for others to catch up.

I believe the universe is a far messier, more complex, and enigmatic place than most people, including you, actually realize. There's no point in trying to apply theories and dogmas to it. You might as well try to get water to hold the shape of your palm after you drop it.

Life isn't just about raising consciousness. If that's all it was about, we could all just dry fast and easily, painlessly ascend to a higher plane of being. So could animals. That's not how it works, though. The world's more complicated that that. A ton more.

The way I see it, ascension to higher levels of awareness/being is a natural process, just like learning to walk/talk/etc.. It happens in its own time. Don't rush it, don't slow it down. It'll happen when it happens.

I know many of you disagree, but that's OK. That's where I am, and where I'm happy.

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The thing I think many people get fooled by is
> that they have never actually HAD a really
> high-Brix mango/apple/orange/cherimoya, and the
> low-Brix ones they have been eating seem normal,
> as a result. Sure, if you've travelled the world
> and eaten fruits in many different countries,
> you've probably had some really high-Brix versions
> of most fruits. However, not everybody has that
> broad of experience with fruit. They may be so
> accustomed to their low-Brix fruits available to
> them at home that they don't bother having higher
> standards.
>
> Some people think they don't like
> peaches/apples/pears/etc., when what they REALLY
> don't like is the low Brix version that they've
> had before.
>
> Sure, if you live on the Big Island of Hawaii, you
> have awesome local fruit available. The soil
> there is mostly excellent. The rest of us have to
> buy/gather carefully.
>
> If I'm hammering the point home too heavily, I
> apologize.

Thank you for your kind sharing.

Well, I think we might be coming to a common area of our seemingly different views. After some period of experimenting with raw, it has become quite apparent to me that the quality of food is crucial, that it is not enough to just eat raw, that it pays to be choosy. Unripe fruit can damage the teeth, for example. Luckily, our sense of taste can guide us perfectly in our choice of foods. Less than optimal raw foods do not taste as appealing as the better quality foods. For example, I have observed that organic bananas taste like heaven compared to non-organic ones. I've eaten freshly picked grapes or strawberries that had an amazing vibrancy to my senses that no fruit from the supermarket has. Of course, I cannot guarantee getting top quality foods all year round, I can only buy what is available, and grow a little bit in my garden. Nevertheless, I became an expert in choosing good quality foods. I use my senses to do that, I smell and taste. If something does not taste good, I won't have it. So in summary, relying on my body senses is an important basis of my approach. I do not use calculators, tests or other artificial means because I see them as a lot less accurate than my senses.

So I completely agree with your point that when people say they don't like some food (say bananas), then it is quite likely that they have not tried that food in its high-quality form (say organic bananas).

"Sure, if you live on the Big Island of Hawaii, you have awesome local fruit available. The soil there is mostly excellent. The rest of us have to buy/gather carefully."

Absolutely! Yes, this is a very important point and I fully agree with this.

I would like to add that ignoring the body senses and relying on some mechanical rules in the long term, is what I see as dangerous in anyone's approach to raw food diet, including fruit-based diet. I believe that when accidents happen (say we damage our teeth) it is not the foods that are to blame but our approach. as we have ignored our body senses (say we ate unripe fruit). So I tend to oppose promoting the use of mechanical rules as a long-term standard.


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