Oh gosh Gosia, I loathe bananas. I mean, I really, really hate them. The smell, the taste, the texture, GAG! I'm positive I'd not like them in any form, from anywhere.

I agree with the analogy where it refers to other produce though. I grew up very close to the tomato capital of Canada (no, really, Leamington, the birthplace of Heinz, look it up!) and I can't stand a tomato from anywhere else. Bland, mealy, dry and flavourless, yuck! Try one fresh from the field here in summer though and oh luscious fruit of the Goddess! You could just eat them like plums. Ok, and plums and peaches used to grow locally too, we'd buy a box of them driving home but none of them would make it there, we'd devour them all on the way, lol.

As an aside, all the lovely orchards that used to flourish here are gone now, torn out at the roots. Apparently the Heinz cannery can't afford to purchase fruit grown locally anymore, they import it from China. Think about that for a minute...

geo,

I, for one, find cherimoya_kid completely fascinating at this point.

to cherimoya kid - posting this since your inbox is full...

you can pm me.

i see pborst quite eloquently responded to you, nevertheless, i did have a couple more questions....


cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cleansing? Please. I was a raw vegan for 3.5 years
> before I tried 80/10/10. My health was fine. I

tell me the difference in foods before and after 811.


> However, nobody TELLS new 80/10/10ers that the
> diet is deficient in calcium, magnesium, and
> sodium, and has excessive potassium. So nobody
> takes mineral supplements. Then people get teeth
> problems and panic attacks, and/or various other
> problems, depending on the person.

i don't have those problems.
will you take this info and change your belief or not
>
> However, mineral supplements do nothing to control
> the issues with cold weather. Cold weather
> becomes INTOLERABLE on 80/10/10.

i spent the winter in northeast US and had no more problems with the cold than anyone else.

will you take this info and change your statements or not

> I ate
> bananas, mainly, with the occasional melon or
> other sweet fruit, as my fruit.

organic bananas?

Bananas score pretty low on the list of chemicals in produce. All the same, here's a handy site for seeing what's in your food.
[www.whatsonmyfood.org]

YES they were organic bananas. At one point I was eating tree-ripened organic quadrato bananas grown on volcanic soil in Costa Rica. This didn't stop the anxiety. It may have helped a bit, although the environment was very remote and peaceful, too. It's tough to say which made the relatively small difference.

There wasn't a giant difference in my food before and after staring 80/10/10, just way more bananas and somewhat less avocadoes, was the main difference. I ate more fat in general, before starting 80/10/10. Most all of my fat was from avocadoes, previous to 80/10/10.

Whether or no you have the same problems as me is mostly immaterial. I have known at least a dozen or more people in person who've tried and failed with 80/10/10, who all had similar symptoms. Some didn't have anxiety, some had acne instead. Nearly all had teeth problems. But they all failed on it, with a very similar symptom list.

Feeling cold is nearly universal on that diet. Why are you even pretending that it's not? Dr D's excuse for that is "well, humans aren't designed for cold weather."

And you're actually trying to tell me nobody gets cold on that diet? Dude, come on. I was a daily reader and contributor to Dr D's vegsource forum for at least 8 months back in 2004. I read every post he made, and even went into the archives and read his past posts. I know the diet well. I don't know why you won't believe me.

I've known literally dozens more online who've had various problems with 80/10/10. My forum is littered with dropouts from that diet. 80/10/10 breaks them, and we fix them. Truthfully, it rarely even requires animal products to do most of the healing. Eating good-quality raw fat and taking natural mineral supplements like dolomite and Terramin are effective.

I think it's so sad/funny/pitiful or something that you keep blaming me for failing on the diet. At MY forum, we blame the food first, and the person second. One food doesn't work? Try another. That new one doesn't work EITHER? Try another. We keep recommending different approaches, based on symptoms, until something works. We also know we're not the end-all and be-all of health knowledge. Sometimes people find relief from non-dietary methods, and we often end up helping them find ones that work. We're pragmatic and results-driven, not dogma-driven. Unlike, for instance, the fruitarians and 80/10/10ers of the world.

We mostly were driven to however we individually eat by failing on other diets. Mostly we have former cooked-paleo eaters and former 80/10/10ers. Lots of both. Lots and lots.

Dude, 80/10/10 is a niche diet that will never catch on. Stop trolling me about it and recognize its insignificance. It's the losing horse in the race.




fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to cherimoya kid - posting this since your inbox
> is full...
>

> tell me the difference in foods before and after
> 811.
>
>

>
> i don't have those problems.
> will you take this info and change your belief or
> not
> >

> i spent the winter in northeast US and had no
> more problems with the cold than anyone else.
>
> will you take this info and change your statements
> or not
>
> > I ate
> > bananas, mainly, with the occasional melon or
> > other sweet fruit, as my fruit.
>
> organic bananas?

A claim that because a number of people who ate 811 diet had serious health problems afterwards, then 811 must cause them, applies false logic. If 811 was indeed causing health problems then everyone who eats 811 would have to have them. So to prove such causality, it is not enough to use however large number of examples. Instead, the evidence needs to be presented for everyone.

Further, note that there is more than one way of applying any diet. For example, if an 811er has teeth problems, was it due to them eating fruit, or rather, due to them eating unripe fruit? Another example, if one eats only bananas for 5 years, then technically they were eating 811. The fact that they developed some deficiencies would not be because they were eating 811, but rather, because they were restricting the range of their foods to one fruit.

In a similar manner, prescriptive approach to any diet that ignores body instincts, even if it is based on the best diet on the planet, will cause health problems in the long term. Personally, I am not satisfied that 811 causes problems in the long term. I am certain however that a prescriptive approach to it, does.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Im not yea or nei 80/10/10, but your statement that if ppl on the diet would have problems everyone would is not accurate. People are different and have different nutritional needs depending on their lifestyle, where they live, genetics etc. Some people function GREAT on a high fruit low fat diet...others do better on higher protein and fat......there is no one strict dogma within the raw vegan community that fits everyone. People need to tailor their diet to their unique needs. Now...I think high greens and LOWER fat can pretty much apply to everyone....but high fruit, fermented foods etc.....varies from person to person.

If dozens of people have a very similar list of symptoms while eating the same diet, that casts suspicion and doubt on the diet. ESPECIALLY if those symptoms seem to correlate with nutrients that appear to be low in that diet.

1. Teeth problems--Everybody knows that teeth are made mainly of calcium. 80/10/10 contains nowhere near the RDA of calcium.

2. Feeling cold--fat helps you create body heat. 80/10/10 is, by design, extremely low in fat.

3. Anxiety-minerals have been prescribed for thousands of years by various health practitioners to help people calm down. One of the most-used medicinals for calming people in Chinese medicine is oysters shell--pure calcium carbonate.

On the subject of minerals, magnesium is another mineral that is EXTREMELY deficient on 80/10/10. I sometimes use a product called "Natural Calm" by "Natural Vitality", which is mostly magnesium. It is very calming.

I have also found that Terramin and dolomite are very useful for controlling anxiety. They are nothing but minerals.

I don't understand what kind of proof is expected here. Long-term studies of 80/10/10ers, in peer-reviewed journals? It'll never happen. Most people, including most raw foodists, have too much common sense to do something so extreme for so long. Also, almost nobody CARES about this diet. Only a tiny number of people ever will. It is a niche diet that will NEVER catch on.

Seriously, anybody who actually thinks this diet will EVER catch on is deluding themselves deeply.

Really? I see millions of people following a ridiculous diet of completely unhealthy foods and many of them living very well, living into their 80's and 90's. Does that mean that S.A.D. is not going to continue on? LOL. These blanket statements are pretty funny when you put them into perspective.

"If dozens of people have a very similar list of symptoms while eating the same diet, that casts suspicion and doubt on the diet."

Numerous people died of cancer while on a meat diet. Therefore eating meat causes cancer.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

If 80 10 10 ppl are mineral deficient theyre probably eating under ripe non organic fruit and/or not enough greens...I think if the diet is done correctly and includes lots of exercise its totally doable for many ppl...but not if you're sedentary and if you dont eat enough greens...

Lots of exercise would be even more problematic in my opinion, many who try to follow 80/10/10 have enough problem eating as it is.

Off the top of my head your needing to eating about a 1000 calories surplus to meet the RDA of many nutrients. Exercise increases caloric need and many just simply can't handle eating that much raw food.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

My heavens, when it rains, it pours. You could benefit yourself by trying to caveat your statements by adding things to your sentences such as "based on what I've seen" or "it seems to me" or even better "in my opinion". People don't like to be lectured to or have supposition and opinion presented as fact. The fact is you don't have any facts, just your personal experience and "people you talk to" which with $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks.

I've politely asked you to stop trolling and/or apologize (I don't need an apology, but for the board one would be nice). One wonders why if you follow a paleo raw diet why you spend so much time here? Harley isn't going to change because of what Prana, or Coco, or Tamara or I or anyone else says here. Harley is Harley. Maybe you didn't get that. We don't control him, many of us don't even like him. More's the pity.

Your personal problems with 80-10-10 are just that, personal problems. You are still projecting and making assertions with facts not in evidence. Take calcium, lots of leafy greens have absorbable calcium. Bok Choy is a heavyweight. Ever seen Freelea's teeth? She posted them. Looked better than mine. Much better.

I think your lesson is this. If you do not know what you are talking about and you keep talking, then you can continue spew nonsense but presenting opinion as fact without evidence is unacceptable at any time. There are few absolutes in this world. But that is one.

Also, CK, at the time of this writing, Coco and I are having a placid discussion on the merits or lack thereof of canola oil. She and I have been friends for a while now. And I recently changed a long held belief I had that anyone who opposed fluridation in drinking water was a crackpot (I was that judgmental). Tamara and Coco both provided helpful input and I researched and changed my position without regret. I didn't have the facts. I was wrong on fluoride in drinking water.

And Coco and Tamara and I still talk regularly on this board and I'm grateful for their counsel. Perhaps it's time you learned to listen a little bit and drop your guard. Many of these folks on 80-10-10 are thriving. Not just doing well. But absolutely thriving. They have the raw vegan glow. It's not my diet. But I will never again challenge it.

Paul

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If dozens of people have a very similar list of
> symptoms while eating the same diet, that casts
> suspicion and doubt on the diet. ESPECIALLY if
> those symptoms seem to correlate with nutrients
> that appear to be low in that diet.
>
> 1. Teeth problems--Everybody knows that teeth are
> made mainly of calcium. 80/10/10 contains nowhere
> near the RDA of calcium.
>
> 2. Feeling cold--fat helps you create body heat.
> 80/10/10 is, by design, extremely low in fat.
>
> 3. Anxiety-minerals have been prescribed for
> thousands of years by various health practitioners
> to help people calm down. One of the most-used
> medicinals for calming people in Chinese medicine
> is oysters shell--pure calcium carbonate.
>
> On the subject of minerals, magnesium is another
> mineral that is EXTREMELY deficient on 80/10/10.
> I sometimes use a product called "Natural Calm" by
> "Natural Vitality", which is mostly magnesium. It
> is very calming.
>
> I have also found that Terramin and dolomite are
> very useful for controlling anxiety. They are
> nothing but minerals.
>
> I don't understand what kind of proof is expected
> here. Long-term studies of 80/10/10ers, in
> peer-reviewed journals? It'll never happen. Most
> people, including most raw foodists, have too much
> common sense to do something so extreme for so
> long. Also, almost nobody CARES about this diet.
> Only a tiny number of people ever will. It is a
> niche diet that will NEVER catch on.
>
> Seriously, anybody who actually thinks this diet
> will EVER catch on is deluding themselves deeply.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Your personal problems with 80-10-10 are just
> that, personal problems. You are still projecting
> and making assertions with facts not in evidence.
> Take calcium, lots of leafy greens have absorbable
> calcium. Bok Choy is a heavyweight. Ever seen
> Freelea's teeth? She posted them. Looked better
> than mine. Much better.
>


There have been 2 other people ON THIS THREAD who talked about similar problems on 80/10/10. These are not my problems only. I wouldn't COMPLAIN about these issues if SO many people didn't come to MY forum month after month, seeking healing from 80/10/10.

Yes, greens have plenty of calcium. They were the only food that I ate daily on 80/10/10 that controlled my tooth sensitivity and helped me calm down. However, many people find them hard to digest, and humans aren't really designed to eat large amounts of greens. They also tend to cause me to have skin problems, so I have to use OTC hydrocortisone cream on my skin if I eat much in the way of greens.

And sure, SOME people's teeth will be fine on 80/10/10. Most won't though, in my admittedly anecdotal experience. Notice how your point about Freeleigh's teeth is ALSO anecdotal? Anecdotal, just like all your other evidence supporting 80/10/10.
At least I can point to specific deficiencies on that diet. What can you point to, besides anecdotes?


>
> Also, CK, at the time of this writing, Coco and I
> are having a placid discussion on the merits or
> lack thereof of canola oil. She and I have been
> friends for a while now. And I recently changed a
> long held belief I had that anyone who opposed
> fluridation in drinking water was a crackpot (I
> was that judgmental). Tamara and Coco both
> provided helpful input and I researched and
> changed my position without regret. I didn't have
> the facts. I was wrong on fluoride in drinking
> water.
>
> And Coco and Tamara and I still talk regularly on
> this board and I'm grateful for their counsel.
> Perhaps it's time you learned to listen a little
> bit and drop your guard. Many of these folks on
> 80-10-10 are thriving. Not just doing well. But
> absolutely thriving. They have the raw vegan
> glow. It's not my diet. But I will never again
> challenge it.
>

I may drop my guard when the rude jerkery around here toward me stops. Between you and Tamukha, though, I'm feeling pretty unwelcome. That's OK, it's the internet, but it's unrealistic to ask me to drop my guard, given how several of you treat me.

As far as changing my mind about things, I do it all the time. It won't happen re: 80/10/10, because I know the diet is unworkable long-term for probably at least half of the people out there. I'm open on other subjects, though. Granted, I've made up my mind on a lot of dietary issues already, because of not only my experience, but the TREMENDOUS amount of anecdotal data I have read over many years on all the forums I moderate and read. That's just a function of having studied the issues for so long, though.

In a general sense, I'm much more open to reports of FAILURE on extreme diets, because I've already seen/read SO many reports of failure on those diets, whether it's 80/10/10, zero-carb, or whatever. Success on an extreme diet is always very suspicious to me. We've got several raw-zero-carbers at my forum, and I watch their posts like a hawk, waiting to see any of the the usual signs of failure on that diet.




To Rawgosia: you make a good point about meat and cancer, although your logic is flawed, since those meat eaters ate lots of other nasty things too.

Guy-Claude Burger's wife DIED of cancer several years ago. I believe the cause of it was the lack of fat in her diet, and the excessive meat consumption. Excess protein is a very bad thing, even good-quality raw protein. This is mainly a problem on raw meat, because its protein is extremely absorbable.

This is a general problem with the Instincto diet, eating too much carbs and protein (fruit, honey, and meat) and not enough fat. Fat's very important. Without it, your appetite is never really satisfied, all you can think about is food, and you end up overeating, and cheating with junky food.


Let me leave you with this--for every success story on 80/10/10, I can find a horrendous, tremendous FAILURE story as well. We could spend all day, all week, all MONTH stacking anecdote against anecdote. Would you agree?

Assuming you agree, don't you see why I am crusading AGAINST it? I do it because a diet with that high of a failure rate, and that little room for error, needs a warning label. Just like zero-carb diets do. Just like ALL extreme diets do.

I am the warning label.

CK I'm gonna tell you straight, Paul is a passionate person who is pretty straight up with his opinion, as am I, but Tamukha... Little Miss Lovely&Gentle... that you've inspired her ire is telling dude. Seriously, she's usually unprovocable that one.

Sheesh, so much drama!

Thanks, coco

cherimoya_kid,

I must say that I don't understand your end game here. Honestly, what is the object of continuously, I'm sorry to say, monomaniacally, harping on and on and on about this? What do you hope to gain? Many of us have already mentioned, way upthread, that we appreciate your differing experience. What else do you want? What is enough?

Look,[and I preface this by saying that I treat people as they deserve, by their behavior] apart from its being insulting to suggest that those of us eating high fruit/low fat are somehow unconscious and need you to lead us out of our fog, like toddlers lost in a woods, what exactly are you leading us out to? Again I say I'm sorry no one warned you about the pitfalls of 80/10/10 or appraised you of the existence of Nutridiary, but stop projecting your mistakes and misfortunes on us. Illuminating potential problems with the diet--good. Raving that we are all doomed--mean and unhelpful. Got it?

Most of us here are prudent enough to continuously monitor our macro and micro nutrient intake and to assess how we feel. We aren't sleepwalking through this. Please stop suggesting that we are, and need saving by you. That is condescending and smacks of authoritarianism, and is not the way we do things here.

Your focus on how ill-treated you have been here, while seeming also unable to recognize your own errors
--roxeli has been driven from her own thread
--You muse indifferently on apologizing even to her
--You insist we are the ones being jerky to you

suggests to me that there are things motivating you that I would rather not know about, in spite of my queries above.

I'll tell you this much, though: Pursuing a vendetta against Harley or Doug Graham by deriding the way we, as knowledgeable, sovereign adults who may be old enough to be your parents, choose to eat isn't helping you to achieve the progression to a higher consciousness you believe yourself to have already achieved.

"To Rawgosia: you make a good point about meat and cancer, although your logic is flawed, since those meat eaters ate lots of other nasty things too."

My point is a mere illustration of the application of your logic.

You do not seem to get a point that merely eating 811 percentages is not a guarantee of superior health. There are OTHER FACTORS involved in creating optimum health. In particular, and most importantly, this includes listening to the body instincts, and for example not eating unripe fruit (which causes teeth damage).

Did the people you talk about who experienced health problems, listened to their instincts? As you said yourself, they did not. So the cause of their health problems evidently is not them following 811 but their PRESCRIPTIVE following of 811. Who was their "guru"? Clearly it was not their body.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

cherimoya, perhaps you could point us out to a page where we can learn the detailed stories of those who tried to follow 811 but suferred health problems? It may be an interesting material to study. I hope this is not against the forum rules, if it is, my apologies.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

> There have been 2 other people ON THIS THREAD who
> talked about similar problems on 80/10/10. These
> are not my problems only.

And their names are???


I wouldn't COMPLAIN
> about these issues if SO many people didn't come
> to MY forum month after month, seeking healing
> from 80/10/10.

This isn't an 80/10/10 forum, it's a raw vegan forum. Why aren't you helping on your own forum or 30 Bananas a Day?


> Yes, greens have plenty of calcium. They were the
> only food that I ate daily on 80/10/10 that
> controlled my tooth sensitivity and helped me calm
> down. However, many people find them hard to
> digest, and humans aren't really designed to eat
> large amounts of greens.

Based on what?

>They also tend to cause
> me to have skin problems, so I have to use OTC
> hydrocortisone cream on my skin if I eat much in
> the way of greens.
>

more anecdotes disputing anecdotes, see below. difference is I'm not using Freelea's teeth to make a general proposition, you are using your anecdotes for that purposes and that's the difference and the point.

> And sure, SOME people's teeth will be fine on
> 80/10/10. Most won't though, in my admittedly
> anecdotal experience. Notice how your point about
> Freeleigh's teeth is ALSO anecdotal? Anecdotal,
> just like all your other evidence supporting
> 80/10/10.

See above. Her teeth are a rebuttal anecdote, which is a whole nother matter. It's proof your claim is not sufficient, if x, then y if 80-10-10 then tooth decay, not the reverse, if not 80-10=10, then teeth are ok, ok?

> At least I can point to specific deficiencies on
> that diet. What can you point to, besides
> anecdotes?

You can't and haven't pointed to anything other than your personal experiences and vague references to people you've talked too. You don't even know if what happened to you was because of 80-10-10 or something else. I guess part of the nerve damage is somehow thinking the burden of proof is somehow reversed because you can't meet yours. You made the claims of the deficiencies of 80-10-10 and have failed utterly to meet any proof. You have not a single study. Nothing. You have nothing. Ok. I'm not claiming 80-10-10 is the be all for everyone. I'm saying in response to your claim that there are people on this board who defy and rebut your statement and your pathetic attempt to generalize from your personal experience to everyone. That's all. Burden isn't on me. He who asserts must prove. You asserted. You prove. That simple. Don't try to escape your responsibility by changing the rules or goal posts in the 4th quarter. Won't work.
>
>
> >
> > Also, CK, at the time of this writing, Coco and
> I
> > are having a placid discussion on the merits or
> > lack thereof of canola oil. She and I have
> been
> > friends for a while now. And I recently changed
> a
> > long held belief I had that anyone who opposed
> > fluridation in drinking water was a crackpot (I
> > was that judgmental). Tamara and Coco both
> > provided helpful input and I researched and
> > changed my position without regret. I didn't
> have
> > the facts. I was wrong on fluoride in
> drinking
> > water.

> I may drop my guard when the rude jerkery around
> here toward me stops. Between you and Tamukha,
> though, I'm feeling pretty unwelcome.

I agree with Coco on this one. Your getting me pissed probably isn't that rare an event (though getting me to defend 80-10-10 is if you'd been around a while). But to get Tamara upset, you've earned your keep. Nothing to be proud of. If you feel unwelcome, maybe it's time to ask why.


That's OK,
> it's the internet, but it's unrealistic to ask me
> to drop my guard, given how several of you treat
> me.
>
> As far as changing my mind about things, I do it
> all the time. It won't happen re: 80/10/10,
> because I know the diet is unworkable long-term
> for probably at least half of the people out
> there. I'm open on other subjects, though.
> Granted, I've made up my mind on a lot of dietary
> issues already, because of not only my experience,
> but the TREMENDOUS amount of anecdotal data I have
> read over many years on all the forums I moderate
> and read. That's just a function of having
> studied the issues for so long, though.

CK, I agree with your right to disagree and your right to your opinion. Doesn't mean you can yell fire in a theater though. That metaphor is the classic response to a claim to free speech. And the analogy fits, I submit. Your claiming that 80-10-10 is a dangerous diet as fact based soley on your experience is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a theater. If there isn't a fire, it's shameless fearmongering and alarmism. Plead guilty or back it up. Your choice.


> In a general sense, I'm much more open to reports
> of FAILURE on extreme diets, because I've already
> seen/read SO many reports of failure on those
> diets, whether it's 80/10/10, zero-carb, or
> whatever. Success on an extreme diet is always
> very suspicious to me. We've got several
> raw-zero-carbers at my forum, and I watch their
> posts like a hawk, waiting to see any of the the
> usual signs of failure on that diet.

Again CK, your personal right to an opinion isn't in doubt. It's when you venture into spouting it as fact without support we tangle. Can you ask the people on this board who practice 80-10-10 what their experience is and allow it to inform your own? That could be useful...to also since I don't practice 80-10-10 but regret a lot of my conflict opposing it earlier. I'm not a die hard supporter yet. But I can't accept what you are saying as fact based on how many people on this forum are doing well following it.
>
> Let me leave you with this--for every success
> story on 80/10/10, I can find a horrendous,
> tremendous FAILURE story as well. We could spend
> all day, all week, all MONTH stacking anecdote
> against anecdote. Would you agree?

Most of what I have listened to on this forum for 8-1-1 are successes. If you can find failures elsewhere, perhaps it would be use to ask what else they are doing and compare what the people who succeed on this forum are doing to see if we can learn why some succeed and some fail. That would be telling.

> Assuming you agree, don't you see why I am
> crusading AGAINST it? I do it because a diet with
> that high of a failure rate, and that little room
> for error, needs a warning label. Just like
> zero-carb diets do. Just like ALL extreme diets
> do.
>
> I am the warning label.

My dear fellow, don't you see why we don't want or need your crusade? The conditions you claim do not have appeared for better or for worse here. Most of the women and men here who practice a low fat raw vegan diet whether 80-10-10 or something close are thriving. You are trying to fix a wheel that isn't broken.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 01:40AM by pborst.

I don't think any of you know who you're dealing with here. And that's MY fault. I generally assume that most raw fooders are like me, and/or have encountered others like me, enough so I shouldn't have to explain myself. That's fallacious.

Completely without advance planning, I happen to be the preacher/messiah type of person. I'm a good salesperson, and would be an EXCELLENT one if I had less qualms about selling people things they don't need. I've always been this way, ever since I could talk. Nearly every word out of my mouth, or that I type, is designed to convince/persuade. I'm always pushing SOMEthing, whether it's raw foods, my politics, or whatever. Once I get to preaching...it's tough to talk me into stopping.

I realize such behavior is rude. I definitely get that. I'm actually sorry that you guys are caught between two...DIFFICULT personalities, mine and DR's. However, the dude gives out no warning labels with his diet, and it needs them. Plus, he trolls my forum. He, however, doesn't have the decency to let me post on HIS forum. So here is where I come. His pulpit then becomes MY pulpit. It's awful. I wouldn't want to be caught in the middle, sick of both haranguers-of-the-masses.

I honestly can't think of a solution. I refuse to attack him on his Youtube videos, because it will give him more views, and that's not what we want, or at least not what I myself want. That's promoting him, because it will push his videos higher in the search results. I would rather he and videos to languish in obscurity. I don't want earnest newbies to get fooled and hurt themselves with that diet.

But I honestly do feel like there's a certain denial around here, about the dangers of low-fat. I feel like a lot of you are far too focused on detox. Let me tell you, the average person is mostly done with detox after a few months on a high-quality, balanced raw diet. You'll have the occasional episode after that, but less and less over time. Sure there are exceptions, but, unless you are a former drug addict, or are extremely toxic from working with heavy metals or other nasties, your detox should be mostly done after a couple of months.

There is a similar problem that is very common among followers of Aajonus Vonderplanitz' Primal Diet. People with allergic reactions to raw dairy are told that it's just detox. The heck it is. Raw dairy is very hard to digest, and needs to be fermented. Even then many people still react to it, and just shouldn't eat it. Just like DR with 8/1/1, though, AV keeps pushing raw dairy like it's the Holy Grail o' Health.

To Rawgosia--Seriously, we have several Instincto members, and one Instincto moderator at my board. I myself eat pretty much mono-style, just 1-3 foods at a meal, usually. I agree that eating instinctively is a much smarter/safer approach. You do realize that's not what Dr D preaches, right? He preaching teaching yourself to prefer sugar to fat, if you don't already.

Since I preferred fat, I had to teach myself to STOP preferring it. Boy was that dumb.

To Paul--humans are not heavy greens eaters. Neither are chimps or bonobos. Gorillas ARE, but we don't have the gut fermentation adaptations that they do. They have much longer intestines than we do, specifically to help ferment and digest veggies and greens.

And just to clarify, I was never claiming that 8/1/1 would destroy everyone's teeth. I can even point out people on my own board who didn't have teeth problems on that diet. A whole lot HAVE, though, and that's something to note, when you're preaching to the masses, as I am.

And again, let me just say that I think a fair number of raw vegans fool themselves into worrying that they're not detoxed enough or "pure" enough...when they're really just fat and mineral-deficient. It's easy to slowly slide into that belief, and the gradual neurological issues that result from it are difficult to cure. More precisely, when your brain is malnourished, the odds are higher that your JUDGMENT is impaired, which makes you, quite possibly, less likely to be able to REALIZE that you are malnourished. It can become a vicious cycle.

Yeah, so I worry about that. Sue me for caring. ROFL I mean, perhaps it's not "enlightened", but I don't care. I want to help clear the path for earnest seekers, not litter it with dangerous half-truths, potential pitfalls and stumbling blocks, and confusing contradictions.

Oh. My. Gawd. Are you kidding me? Dude, I'm not caught between you and anybody else. I eat lots of fat. I think detox is bunk. I just find you, YOU without the balance of anything or anybody else, You and Your Approach offensively abrasive.

cherimoya, you have not provided any solid material, but opinions. If 811 causes health problems, show us the evidence. Don't just state that you met many people with such problems, but give a direct link to the evidence that one can verify and study. In particular, I would be interested to read a story and see pictures of a person after at least one year on 811, when they were suffering health problems, and then after one year after when they changed from 811.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Ok Tamukha, but he lost me when he said that he had already reached a higher level of consciousness and was waiting for us to catch up...now bumptous.

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But I honestly do feel like there's a certain
> denial around here, about the dangers of low-fat.
> I feel like a lot of you are far too focused on
> detox. Let me tell you, the average person is
> mostly done with detox after a few months on a
> high-quality, balanced raw diet. You'll have the
> occasional episode after that, but less and less
> over time. Sure there are exceptions, but, unless
> you are a former drug addict, or are extremely
> toxic from working with heavy metals or other
> nasties, your detox should be mostly done after a
> couple of months.

I haven't been following the rest of the convo but these are wise words. Detox is super super over-rated especially for side effects from raw diets, i know a friend who is convinced that clumps of her hair falling out on the raw diet she is following is nothing more than detox. I try to explain that in most cases i.e except those who have accumulated certain metals to poisonous levels etc that detox happens under the scene, you rarely feel it and certainly likely wouldn't just by eating a little some more fruit and vegetables for the day.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 09:57AM by powerlifer.

That's not exclusive to 811 or a raw diet or anything else. If somebody is losing hair and suffering like that (happens to cooked fooders too) it's a sign of serious imbalance that screams GO TO A DOCTOR RIGHT NOW!.

I didn't really feel any detox symptoms at all. I ate good fresh food before upping my raw intake a few years ago anyway. I agree far too much is put down to this umbrella word 'detox'.

I've really only skimmed through the last few pages but one sentence that CK said resonated with me:

' Fat's very important. Without it, your appetite is never really satisfied, all you can think about is food, and you end up overeating, and cheating with junky food.'

I have no wish to enter the 80-10-10 discussion but i would like to say that I have certainly suffered from endless food cravings and longing for food, any good vegan food when on very low fat days. I think if I had access to really good, ripe, fabulous fruit I would be alright but 100% raw in cold wet UK doesn't really work for me when on very low fat.

I have no teeth problems and no anxiety issues or any of the other things that CK attributes to 80-10-10. I certainly don't know enough about it to offer an opinion about the rights and wrongs of 80-10-10
- just sharing my own experience.

geo,

Yeah, it made me think of one of my favorite quotes, by Michelangelo:

Ancora imparo

"I am still learning"

I know I am not enlightened yet!

Nawtee, here is what Michaelangelo said about the original Tamara : "Tamara è molto molto cattivo"

Paul

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's not exclusive to 811 or a raw diet or
> anything else. If somebody is losing hair and
> suffering like that (happens to cooked fooders
> too) it's a sign of serious imbalance that screams
> GO TO A DOCTOR RIGHT NOW!.

It's too late, I already was the first person on the thread to warn about the dangers of detox obession. You can hate my approach, but you have to give me credit for knowing the pitfalls of the diet, and also telling people about them.

SOMEbody has to bring these things up. Clearly nobody has warned that person about this beforehand. This indicates a lack. I am here to make up for that lack.

If you people can't get it together and warn people about the possible dangerous excesses that raw foodists fall into, then someone needs to.

The raw diet can be a lifesaver...and if you do it the wrong way, it can be very nearly the opposite.