geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok Tamukha, but he lost me when he said that he
> had already reached a higher level of
> consciousness and was waiting for us to catch
> up...now bumptous.

You told me you wanted me to ascend to a higher plane of consciousness. The staggering, hilarious amount of ego implied in that statement is a little disappointing, given your age. Hasn't life beaten some humility into you by now? It sure has beaten some into me.

I said that as a way to get your attention. I don't consider myself especially enlightened, or spiritually advanced. Nor are you , making those kinds of off-the-wall statements.

Seriously, how have you not aged out of that silly ego trip?

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cherimoya, you have not provided any solid
> material, but opinions. If 811 causes health
> problems, show us the evidence. Don't just state
> that you met many people with such problems, but
> give a direct link to the evidence that one can
> verify and study. In particular, I would be
> interested to read a story and see pictures of a
> person after at least one year on 811, when they
> were suffering health problems, and then after one
> year after when they changed from 811.

A study of one person is just 1 data point.

I don't care if people want to eat 8/1/1, I just want them to increase their fat and mineral intake if they start getting unpleasant symptoms they didn't have when eating higher fat.

That's really all I'm trying to get across. I want to make sure EVERY person here who might try the diet listens to me on that. I hate watching people crash and burn for lack of good advice.

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's not exclusive to 811 or a raw diet or
> > anything else. If somebody is losing hair and
> > suffering like that (happens to cooked fooders
> > too) it's a sign of serious imbalance that
> screams
> > GO TO A DOCTOR RIGHT NOW!.
>
> It's too late, I already was the first person on
> the thread to warn about the dangers of detox
> obession. You can hate my approach, but you have
> to give me credit for knowing the pitfalls of the
> diet, and also telling people about them.
>
> SOMEbody has to bring these things up. Clearly
> nobody has warned that person about this
> beforehand. This indicates a lack. I am here to
> make up for that lack.
>
> If you people can't get it together and warn
> people about the possible dangerous excesses that
> raw foodists fall into, then someone needs to.
>
> The raw diet can be a lifesaver...and if you do it
> the wrong way, it can be very nearly the opposite.



Hmm, yes, because of course you're the First person on this forum to Ever have the Original Thought that severe symptoms mightn't be simply detox. I certainly haven't been saying for the last 10 years that hair loss and cessation of menses are a sign of deficiency, it never crossed my mind until you mentioned it. Thank you so much for making sure we all know the truth, wherever would we be without you. LOL.

>There wasn't a giant difference in my food before and after staring 80/10/10, just way more bananas and somewhat less avocadoes, was the main difference. I ate more fat in general, before starting 80/10/10. Most all of my fat was from avocadoes, previous to 80/10/10.

you will forgive me if i find it rather odd and unbelievable that more bananas and somewhat less avocados caused you to fail diet wise.


>Some didn't have anxiety,

yes a clean diet can cause anxiety. you blame the diet. i do not.


> some had acne instead.

eating lowfat raw vegan causes acne ! that is very funny.



>Feeling cold is nearly universal on that diet. Why are you even pretending that it's not?

depends on who you're talking to, doesn't it?
look for failure and you'll find it.
read beyondveg too long, and you'll believe it ... etc

whether or not you believe me is your concern.
I am telling you that i have no problem with the cold.
that is a clear indication that people that you refer to are not doing it right.
i agree it can be done wrong. quite easily.

>And you're actually trying to tell me nobody gets cold on that diet? Dude, come on.

you have a serious problem with logic.

you made a universal statement.
i gave you a statement opposing it, thereby refuting your universal.
i am not trying to tell you anything about " nobody gets cold on that diet"


> We keep recommending different approaches, based on symptoms, until something works.

you may be misinterpreting symptoms and wanting to be the great human dietary tinkerer. satisfies the ego for some.


>Dude, 80/10/10 is a niche diet that will never catch on. Stop trolling me about it and recognize its insignificance. It's the losing horse in the race.

I don't care about the significance of 811

is this a competitition for you?

well, good luck to you and for the somewhat interesting - discussion.

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A study of one person is just 1 data point.


1 data point is a good start and a lot better than no data at all.

You critisized Harley, but my expert opinion based on first-hand experience is that when challenged and questioned hard, he gives a direct answer. Everyme has their opinion. Nevertheless, ranting without substance is uninteresting and uncompelling.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Kiddo - It's obvious that you have forgotten the reason for what I said, as it was concerning your pride and nothing to do with my ego. Actually, I could do with a little more ego.

Anyway, you could easily just apologise to everyone BUT DR and those who support him who are members of this forum and who also troll your paleo site. You see, it's easy, but you won't, you just try to humiliate me instead. Now that's very immature...

Tamukha - Yeah, I like that. There's only one time we ever stop learning, and even then, we don't really know if we do stop. But it would be safe to say that we do stop learning in this present physical form....

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cherimoya_kid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > A study of one person is just 1 data point.
>
>
> 1 data point is a good start and a lot better than
> no data at all.
>
> You critisized Harley, but my expert opinion based
> on first-hand experience is that when challenged
> and questioned hard, he gives a direct answer.
> Everyme has their opinion. Nevertheless, ranting
> without substance is uninteresting and
> uncompelling.


OK, here we go, then.

Biochemistry and diet are EXTREMELY complex. Between the vested interests of Big Pharma, our incomplete understanding of biochemistry, and the lack of good studies of ANY kind on raw foodists, the best we've got is guesswork--guesswork that is based on our incomplete knowledge of biochemistry and anecdotal data.

We definitely know that people vary TREMENDOUSLY in how they respond to different foods and substances. We don't yet know exactly what's going on, biochemically, in many of those situations.


Given that less-than-ideal basis from which to work, it makes sense to avoid extremes. I mean, if you don't know what you're doing in ANY area, caution is rarely a bad thing.

I've seen spectacular successes, at least in the short-term, on zero-carb, 8/1/1, and every raw diet in between. These people are NOT all the same, biochemically. NOT EVEN CLOOOOSE. Nobody knows entirely what's going on with each and every one of them, biochemically.

Given our collective lack of knowledge, proceeding methodically/slowly/cautiously might be smart. Why be extreme as a default? Why START with an extreme?

I support people finding diets that work for them, whether that's 8/1/1, zero-carb, or whatever. I DON'T support noobs to the raw diet being told that one specific diet is the absolute best diet for all people, or that one specific raw food is good for everyone, always.

Noobs need help. There's not a single guru in the movement that I think has all the answers. They need to be protected from the gurus, quite frankly. That's what I'm trying to do, know what I mean?

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >There wasn't a giant difference in my food before
> and after staring 80/10/10, just way more bananas
> and somewhat less avocadoes, was the main
> difference. I ate more fat in general, before
> starting 80/10/10. Most all of my fat was from
> avocadoes, previous to 80/10/10.
>
> you will forgive me if i find it rather odd and
> unbelievable that more bananas and somewhat less
> avocados caused you to fail diet wise.
>
>
> >Some didn't have anxiety,
>
> yes a clean diet can cause anxiety. you blame the
> diet. i do not.
>
>
> > some had acne instead.
>
> eating lowfat raw vegan causes acne ! that is
> very funny.
>
>
>
> >Feeling cold is nearly universal on that diet.
> Why are you even pretending that it's not?
>
> depends on who you're talking to, doesn't it?
> look for failure and you'll find it.
> read beyondveg too long, and you'll believe it ...
> etc
>
> whether or not you believe me is your concern.
> I am telling you that i have no problem with the
> cold.
> that is a clear indication that people that you
> refer to are not doing it right.
> i agree it can be done wrong. quite easily.
>
> >And you're actually trying to tell me nobody gets
> cold on that diet? Dude, come on.
>
> you have a serious problem with logic.
>
> you made a universal statement.
> i gave you a statement opposing it, thereby
> refuting your universal.
> i am not trying to tell you anything about "
> nobody gets cold on that diet"
>
>
> > We keep recommending different approaches, based
> on symptoms, until something works.
>
> you may be misinterpreting symptoms and wanting to
> be the great human dietary tinkerer. satisfies
> the ego for some.
>
>
> >Dude, 80/10/10 is a niche diet that will never
> catch on. Stop trolling me about it and recognize
> its insignificance. It's the losing horse in the
> race.
>
> I don't care about the significance of 811
>
> is this a competitition for you?
>
> well, good luck to you and for the somewhat
> interesting - discussion.

So I'm a liar, and/or all my failures on 8/1/1 are my fault.

OK. Good luck with that.

coco Wrote:

>
> Hmm, yes, because of course you're the First
> person on this forum to Ever have the Original
> Thought that severe symptoms mightn't be simply
> detox. I certainly haven't been saying for the
> last 10 years that hair loss and cessation of
> menses are a sign of deficiency, it never crossed
> my mind until you mentioned it.

Seriously, if I saw people talking about the dangers of over-detoxing here regularly, I wouldn't bother to say anything about it.

Noobs need help. It's my job. I learned useful stuff here. I don't want to make others learn the hard way. Pay it forward. That's the way I see it.

And if I meant this to be a long-term effort, I'd do it a lot more calmly, less aggressively. However, this is intended to be a hit-and-run. Fear not, the storm ends soon enough.

See, the way I see it is, people seeking to become more "spiritual" or "spiritually pure" can often use the raw diet as a way to achieve whatever it is they're trying to achieve. However, a lot of these people are TRYING to achieve an extreme, and compassion compels us to warn them AWAY from that. They need to be warned against extremes, REGULARLY and LOUDLY. They certainly aren't going to warn themselves.

Granted, not everyone is like that, but there are a significant minority of raw foodists who are in that head space. They need a friend. A not-crazy friend, someone with years of experience.

Yall anti detoxers need to fast...yall anti 80/10/10ers need to eat some fruit, and you 80/10/10 is the only way folks need to eat some greens n fat!
Yall need to take some deep breaths and settle down!!!!!!!!!!

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Noobs need help. It's my job. I learned useful
> stuff here. I don't want to make others learn the
> hard way. Pay it forward. That's the way I see
> it.

Except you still don't acknowledge the basic point that you can't impute your experience onto others. It would be nice if you could pay it forward instead of offering unsolicited advice.

>
> And if I meant this to be a long-term effort, I'd
> do it a lot more calmly, less aggressively.
> However, this is intended to be a hit-and-run.
> Fear not, the storm ends soon enough.

You are full of yourself, this much is certain. Actually, I've never bothered to see if we have an ignore button on the forum. Perhaps it's time.

> See, the way I see it is, people seeking to become
> more "spiritual" or "spiritually pure" can often
> use the raw diet as a way to achieve whatever it
> is they're trying to achieve. However, a lot of
> these people are TRYING to achieve an extreme, and
> compassion compels us to warn them AWAY from that.
> They need to be warned against extremes, REGULARLY
> and LOUDLY. They certainly aren't going to warn
> themselves.

Something being extreme is not a pejorative as long as the noun if favorable. I would rather be in extremely good health and live an extremely long life rather than a moderate one. Anyway, even were I to buy your self-serving characterization, you haven't qualified yourself as judge or teacher for what you claim.

> Granted, not everyone is like that, but there are
> a significant minority of raw foodists who are in
> that head space. They need a friend. A not-crazy
> friend, someone with years of experience.

And you are going to save them from themselves. Your mission seems to have changed. At first it was to stop Harley from trolling your board, now you seem to be on a mission of mercy for people who don't need your help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 03:38PM by pborst.

cherimoya_kid,

Still you talk to us as though we are psychicly unformed sniveling wee children abandoned in a woods, with you as our only possible deliverer.

This is not the demeanor of a helpful individual, no matter how passionate. You might have been "helpful" earlier in this thread, but you left helpful behind you long, long ago.

I say this in all seriousness: There is a point after which messianically foisting unoriginal advice and unbeckoned aid on people repeatedly passes from overweening attention into egoism, and from egoism, into outright pathology.


Please stop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 04:33PM by Tamukha.

I'm pathological, eh? ROFL Let me SHOW you PATHOLOGICAL--

[youtu.be]

THAT'S pathological.

DR would say that kid in the video is a little on the chubby side.

You're abetting anorexia by not, as a group, demanding DR be banned.

Yep, anorexia.

Nobody here has the power to ban another poster or believe me kid, you'd be outta here by now.

>I'm pathological, eh? ROFL Let me SHOW you PATHOLOGICAL--
>[youtu.be]
>THAT'S pathological.

are you claiming that is 80/10/10?
certainly the ignorant person who posted the video is.
that is really a sick and disturbing lie.

>DR would say that kid in the video is a little on the chubby side.

you are a very sick person to make such an outrageously wrong statement.

>You're abetting anorexia by not, as a group, demanding DR be banned.

ditto.

you have now destroyed any credibility you may have had. congratulations.

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> OK, here we go, then.

You have not delivered the goods. I am not asking about you restating your opinion or giving more details of how your thought processes go. I am asking for hard-core data that supports your claims. Specifically, as scientific evidence does not exist (research on 811 is practically non-existing), I am asking for empirical evidence in the form of real-life stories and images that can be studied of people who were suffering health-problems on 811 and experienced an improvement after a change of diet. The acceptable form of such evidence is
* links to such stories, with verifiable details


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

cherimoya_kid,

The grasping at argumentative straws--still--confirms my suspicions. Sad. Just so sad.

Please let go of this relentless pursuit of your white whale and take some time to examine how you have become what you so despise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 01:04AM by Tamukha.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cherimoya_kid,
>
> The grasping at argumentative
> straws--still--confirms my suspicions. Sad. Just
> so sad.
>
> Please let go of this relentless pursuit of your
> white whale and take some time to examine how you
> have become what you so despise.

I attempt to create DOUBT. DR and Dr Doug do the OPPOSITE. I don't despise them. I really don't think they are bad or ill-intentioned. Seriously. Not that it matters, but I don't. I actually like DR, I just think he's got some REALLY unhealthy ideas about diet and what constitutes a healthy body weight.

This is where I learned about 80/10/10, and, since nobody ELSE is raising the alarm bells about it, the heck with anyone trying to stop me. I'm trying to keep other strong-willed, gullible people from hurting themselves seriously, like I did.

I am trying to protect people like me, since nobody ELSE here seems to be watching out for them.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cherimoya_kid Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > OK, here we go, then.
>
> You have not delivered the goods. I am not asking
> about you restating your opinion or giving more
> details of how your thought processes go. I am
> asking for hard-core data that supports your
> claims. Specifically, as scientific evidence does
> not exist (research on 811 is practically
> non-existing), I am asking for empirical evidence
> in the form of real-life stories and images that
> can be studied of people who were suffering
> health-problems on 811 and experienced an
> improvement after a change of diet. The acceptable
> form of such evidence is
> * links to such stories, with verifiable details

PM me. It would violate forum rules for me to link to my forum, and I'm not just going to say "go to my forum", because that's asking a bit much of you. You CAN, but I'd be happy to give you specific links to testimonials. I could even start a thread asking for people's results with 8/1/1 or similar diets.

There's a LOT of people there who've tried it.

Here's a quote from a woman, one of our longtime posters at my forum, who used to encounter DR regularly at various raw vegan forums.

" I didn't mind DurianRider calling me a sumo wrestler. "

It's not taken out of context. DR is going around calling perfectly normal women, not just fat, but SUMO WRESTLERS.

Ladies, are you cool with that?

It's abusive.

Google that quote if you want to read the whole thread it's found in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 05:23AM by cherimoya_kid.

The irony is that during all this time, Harley and Freelea have been creating a profitable marketing brand with the goal of making money from the raw food industry much in the same way Matt Monarch, David Wolfe and Daniel Vitalis. Whether the commodity is selling dietary supplements, retreats or books the ultimate motive is that they go to all this effort to make $$$$ from you. Harley just uses his "branding" of being abusive and army drill instructor style advice as his cover where as Wolfe pretends he is a hippy. 30BAD is a horrible advertisement for 80/10/10, it is becoming more and more of a pro-eating disorder forum. Massive emphasis on body image and becoming skinny at any cost. No one gets to see the down sides of the diet as they are abused, mocked for past history and banned. Veg Source is much better and you get direct contact with Doug. As abusive as Harley is to others i am actually worried about him, he does not look very well in some of his recent videos.

Rawjoe,

Sorry, I don't see it, here or Goneraw.com. Harley has his faults. Marketing isn't one of them. Man's never tried to sell me anything other than an idea. He's one of the least commercial people I've ever seen. Freelea too. She's tried to sell the diet as he has, but that's it. Profitable marketing brand? What are you talking about? Bananas? Mangoes? It would be a pretty dumb business plan wouldn't it? Stuff you can get at the market, organic or conventional.

For better or for worse, Harley and Freelea are not David Wolfe or Matt Monarch. The former don't sell anything, at least that I've seen. At least they've never marketed it. They believe passionately about a low fat raw vegan diet that's fruit based. And they both look excellent. I don't get your point.

Paul

You troll sport, create more heat than light. If you cared about anyone here other than yourself, you would back up your claim so we could stand astonished by your credibility rather than rolling on the floor at your hubris. And I think Fresh had a good point a while back, so I've said my peace. you've failed utterly to answer any question put to you not just by me but by a number of others here. Moving on.

Paul


cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tamukha Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > cherimoya_kid,
> >
> > The grasping at argumentative
> > straws--still--confirms my suspicions. Sad.
> Just
> > so sad.
> >
> > Please let go of this relentless pursuit of
> your
> > white whale and take some time to examine how
> you
> > have become what you so despise.
>
> I attempt to create DOUBT. DR and Dr Doug do the
> OPPOSITE. I don't despise them. I really don't
> think they are bad or ill-intentioned. Seriously.
> Not that it matters, but I don't. I actually like
> DR, I just think he's got some REALLY unhealthy
> ideas about diet and what constitutes a healthy
> body weight.
>
> This is where I learned about 80/10/10, and, since
> nobody ELSE is raising the alarm bells about it,
> the heck with anyone trying to stop me. I'm trying
> to keep other strong-willed, gullible people from
> hurting themselves seriously, like I did.
>
> I am trying to protect people like me, since
> nobody ELSE here seems to be watching out for
> them.

Pborst this is how it may appear on the surface but as an ex internet marketing director for a very large company i can tell you the purpose of everything they do at the end of the day is to drive as much traffic as possible to their website. Although it appears as if they have nothing to offer you like Monarch does with his tangible products, both Harley and Freelea offer coaching for thousands of dollars, e-books and sound clips. Harley does not come around here to discuss and promote 80/10/10, he flys and bys spamming 6-7 videos in order to direct any traffic to his site. Veg source is where its at if you want to learn about real 80/10/10 living. Can anyone seriously say that Harley has the knowledge in order to justify charging near 2000 dollars for 30 days of coaching?

These "raw coaches" are popping up everywhere at the moment charging thousands of dollars with no qualification and little knowledge to back up the advice they offer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 05:11PM by rawjoe.

Rawjoe,

I admit, I don't spend much time around their site. And perhaps you have more experience than I on their coaching efforts (I hadn't thought about that). That said, at least on this forum, they don't market coaching either, not that I've seen at least.

So, you may be right that elsewhere Harley is marketing coaching. I just haven't seen it here. Mostly, what I've seen here is promoting Doug, 8-1-1, lfrv diets. I have other issues with Harley, e.g. tact ... calling many 8-1-1 rivals either fat or unhealthy. But still, he doesn't market here. At least not that I've seen.

Paul

Yes but in order to market his coaching and other sellable assets he has to drive traffic to his website. Harley and Freelea do this mostly through the use of controversial videos(semi-naked frutarian dancing etc) in order to provoke repeated visits and reactions. Yeah i do not tolerate his abusive and bully behaviour. When you are charging 2000 dollars for coaching surely you shouldn't need to be asking for donations for hundreds of dollars every month.

Joe,

k, I'm not seeing him trying to drive traffic to his site either. Maybe others here feel differently. A typical harley video or thread is to come in here, and either say something about vitamin b-12, something mean about Dave Wolfe, or something great about Doug, that's about it.

As I've said, harley is harley. Yeah he's got a site. But I've never felt the hard sell here. Maybe he does things differently on other sites. Haven't seen it on Goneraw.com either when I frequent there, which isn't too often. Maybe some others have a different perspective.

Paul

That is the point it is not in your face obvious commercialism like Monarch or Wolfe, making videos with the tone that Harley has nothing to offer but complete impartial advice about his lifestyle when really his livelihood depends on the raw food movement and he has vested interests. I just checked his site he actually charges 3250 AU Dollars for 30 days coaching via internet, WOW you could hire top level athletic coaches here in the United States for a similar price and he has the gall to ask for donations whilst discrediting and abusing how others make a living. No wonder he has the jet set rock lifestyle of being able to fly all around the world to exotic countries.

Joe,

Ok, my point is that I have seen at least a dozen of Harley's video's and opined on some of them. The one he did with the kangaroos on the lawns is priceless. I have never seen him solicit. I've been around this board for a bit. And I have issues with Harley's style. but marketing has never been one of them. He is not commercial at least here. Let me ask you to search on his screen name and produce a solicitation for coaching on this board. If you can do one, I will continue to respond. If not, ...

paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 06:52PM by pborst.

btw, if you fail my test, you have done what I could not and didn't want to try to which to enable him as noncommercial Was that your point?

Paul