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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 09, 2012 10:25PM

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kid - I did agree about muscle bulk and strength,
> though I'm not so sure about strength being
> inherited, it maybe true though. Again, do you
> have access to any studies that back your
> statement???
>
> What I did ask was...'Would a person on 811 adjust
> their protein intake to say 15% if they were
> wanting to increase their muscle bulk or
> strength'??? I'm not only asking the Kid, but all
> on this forum.
>
> I also mentioned that personally, I prefer to let
> my body do the math, rather than to measure
> everything. However, just thinking of what I eat
> each day, my diet would probably be quite close to
> 811 anyway. Actually, taking that into the
> equasion would also
>
> Cheers,
> geo

I have known people with MUCH greater strength than others the same size or even larger. There's only two ways that's happening, they're either

1. activating more of their muscle fibers at the moment of exertion
2. have denser/stronger muscle tissue

I think both actually happen, with some people having more of the one than the other. I know a woman who says that she and most of her family are all unusually strong, she can easily pick up one end of a car, and she doesn't lift weights, and isn't extremely muscular. She says she thinks her muscle tissue is more dense than average, and thinks it's inherited.

OTOH, I used to date a massage therapist who was very thin, a raw foodist, but who had RIDICULOUS grip strength. She weighed about 115 pounds, but had the strongest hands I've ever encountered. I don't know how much of that was genetic, and how much was simply a result of her approach to massage work.

I seriously doubt you're really 80/10/10, geo. Measure your food intake precisely for a week, and I think you'll find you eat a lot more fat and protein than you think. Remember, 80/10/10, in terms of fat/protein, is about equal to 30 bananas, half an avocado, and one bunch of leaf lettuce a day, in terms of fat/protein/carbs. (If I recall correctly)

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 10, 2012 02:29AM

Hmmm, actually you might be right Kid, as after I posted, I remembered a family that I knew years ago where all the children were muscular like their father, even the girls, and they didn't do a skerrick of exercise.

As far as my diet is concerned, I really don't think I eat anywhere near the amount they say, but I'll take a closer look.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: rawgosia ()
Date: February 11, 2012 05:24PM

I am not following 811, but after going raw, and after realizing that I was a fruit lover, I calculated my percentages and yes, they were 811.

Note that 811 is defined by carbohydrates being at least 80% of total calories, protein being no more than 10%, and fat being no more than 10%. Percentages may vary on daily basis and some days may not be 811, but overall averages are. For example, one might eat a whole avocado or more in one day, and then none at all for some days. No one really calculates their percentages accurately but if we avoid overt fats and rely on fruit as the main source of our calories most of the time, then perhaps we are 811. Note that 811 is not defined in terms of calories consumed, but in terms of the above percentages. So one can be 811 and consume 2000cal or 3000cal per day, there is no rule about it at all. Further, the creator of 811 definition (not the diet, which existed before the definition), Doug Graham, accepts Natural Hygiene (NH) being part of 811. NH roughly means that your body heals self and promotes following the body instincts.

As far as the benefits of a fruity diet, they have been immense for me. This is the most hydrating and also de-aging diet on Earth, when combined with the healthy practices of respecting the body instincts.


RawGosia channel
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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 11, 2012 09:03PM

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> As far as the benefits of a fruity diet, they have
> been immense for me. This is the most hydrating
> and also de-aging diet on Earth, when combined
> with the healthy practices of respecting the body
> instincts.

If it's so de-aging, why does Dr. Doug look so horrible? He looked fine just a few years ago. The sudden downturn has been extreme and, well, sudden.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: durianrider ()
Date: February 11, 2012 10:11PM

Doug Graham is 60 in a few months. With all the tiny arrows shot his way, I wouldnt want to be in his stressful situation day in, day out.

I mean he is forced to live in the UK cos his wife is not allowed in the US for reasons they dont even know. He is trying to raise a raw child in a freak show world and he gets hated on by the flock on a daily basis.

He is soon to be 60 too. winking smiley

Maybe he should start doing HGH injections, chemical face peels, botox, face lifts and spend 50k$ on his teeth like other raw food (health food) gurus that will remain anonymous. winking smiley

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: roxeli ()
Date: February 13, 2012 03:25PM

How realistic is it of us to expect mature raw foodists to always look younger than their biological age? We all age, regardless of our diets, even those on S.A.D age. Maybe Doug Graham's arteries are clear and elastic, so, who cares if his face shows wrinkles, sagging, and all other signs of aging? Aging happens. We are still imperfect humans prone to disease and aging. Viktoras Kulvinskas wife still died of a disease regardless of her healthy lifestyle. Sometimes, it's not enough. We are still imperfect humans living in an imperfect environment. For some, a healthy lifestyle might slow down the aging process a little but I've seen this happen among S.A.D eaters too.

I'm also beyond the bloom of youth. I no longer produce collagen as I did in my youth. Does it show? Sure it does. But I feel great. I am not on any medications. I currently don't have any health issues. I am more fit than most females half my age. I'm enjoying high intensity interval training at age 50. As far as my aesthetics are concerned, I'm not prematurely aged but I'm aging right on schedule. I can't complain.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 13, 2012 03:39PM

This is very strange to me though. I know a few healthy living people ,like my mama, who look decades younger than they are. It's not a family trait in every case, the rest of the family looks their age, just that one odd-ball yoga doing vegetarian looks young and fresh. In the case of my mother, in her mid 60's she's trim and fit, has very little grey hair, energy to spare, doesn't take a single medication, etc. Sure, she's got wrinkles but put her in a crowd of others her age and she sticks out as the baby of the bunch.
You can't judge a book by it's cover but sometimes it gives you a hint as to the insides winking smiley.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: roxeli ()
Date: February 13, 2012 05:12PM

My mother looks 20 years younger than her biological age of 73. I attribute it to her indigenous genetics. She has more facial fat than most people her age which makes for smoother skin appearance. She has the full and round face that is common among Amerindians (much like Navajo and Apache Indians). I inherited my father's Middle Eastern genetics so I have less facial fat, higher cheekbones, and a visible jaw line but no fat fillers.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 13, 2012 05:28PM

See, my mom recently lost 35 lbs and she looks younger without the extra fat. She looks younger than her sister who is nearly a decade her junior and weighs quite a bit more. She's freaking amazing, that lady. I'm telling you, growing up with a health buff mother was a blessing to my siblings and I. I hope I look as vibrant as she does when I'm in my 50's!

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: rawalice ()
Date: February 13, 2012 05:31PM

Yeah, it's great to be gently vegetarian and maintain our health, but what good is it when people are poisoning your hemp milk and coffee creamer. Wg.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 13, 2012 07:09PM

People regularly think I'm a decade younger than I am at 59 next month, though it's mostly genetics. Both my sisters also look younger than they are, and they eat everything. However, they have health problems, and I do not.

I too, would look at some raw fooders who still died in their mid 80's, but some did live into their mid 90's or older, such as Jack Lalanne and Norman Walker. Now that's still a really good age, and is probably much older than the average. But while we may still look our age, I believe that a healthy diet gives us a much better quality of life right up to the time when we wear out.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: WheatgrassYogi ()
Date: February 13, 2012 08:22PM

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People regularly think I'm a decade younger than I am at 59 next month....

Really!! I thought you were much older. Maybe it's your picture. I'm sure Photo Shop could do something....LOL..just joshing.
I still think CR (calorie restriction) is the 'key' to a long, youthful looking life, but the leaders of CR look like they have one foot in the Grave, and the other on a Banana Peel......WY

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: rawgosia ()
Date: February 13, 2012 10:52PM

"If it's so de-aging, why does Dr. Doug look so horrible? He looked fine just a few years ago. The sudden downturn has been extreme and, well, sudden."

There is more than one variant of a fruity diet. Overt-fat free, moderate fat, greens free, high in greens, etc. There are factors beyond the diet. Stress. Not enough sleep. Too much work. Too much exercise.

I don't see Doug as looking horrible by the way.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 14, 2012 12:05AM

Goodonya WY I love you too smiling smiley

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 14, 2012 03:03PM

durianrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doug Graham is 60 in a few months. With all the
> tiny arrows shot his way, I wouldnt want to be in
> his stressful situation day in, day out.
>
> I mean he is forced to live in the UK cos his wife
> is not allowed in the US for reasons they dont
> even know. He is trying to raise a raw child in a
> freak show world and he gets hated on by the flock
> on a daily basis.
>
> He is soon to be 60 too. winking smiley
>
> Maybe he should start doing HGH injections,
> chemical face peels, botox, face lifts and spend
> 50k$ on his teeth like other raw food (health
> food) gurus that will remain anonymous. winking smiley

Perhaps Doug could contact David Wolfe to seek counseling and solicit wisdom.



what do you see? wisdom? equanimity? experience? outstanding. Doug needn't go anywhere else. Please have him call David for personal coaching. Life is too precious.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2012 03:06PM by pborst.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 14, 2012 03:35PM

Genetics, stress, WHATEVER...if 80/10/10 were "the most de-aging diet on Earth", then Dr. D would look a WHOLE lot better.

I'm 36, but often get mistaken for 26 or 28. Nobody think's I'm over 30. I attribute that mainly to diet, because no one else in my family looks younger than their age.

I assume this trend in me looking younger than my age will continue for as long as I keep eating and living raw and healthy.

The weird thing is that Dr D looked really great up until just a few years go. The downturn was SUDDEN. Scary stuff.

And I don't buy the stress argument.

Why? Because I DID get a few dozen gray hairs there for a couple of years, when I was under extreme financial stress. Guess what? They went away. Why won't Doug's go away? He can't be under THAT much more stress than I was.

Also, what's up with the neck wattle?

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 14, 2012 04:01PM

You again. hmmm. You are Paleo right, a moderator on a Paleo forum. Your original purpose back in November was to come here accuse us of trolling on your board and assume we are were harleyites... was it not? You claimed everyone on this
Board was responsible for Harley's post on your paleo board. My memory is not so short. Pretty clear we don't all follow Harley's or Doug's tune. So now, you have seen wisdom and are posting on your own. Doesn't mean we forget paleo trolls. If you want to make good sport, apologize to the forum for your prior conduct. Apologize to the members of rawfoodsupport.com that you falsely accused ot trolling on your website. Until you've done that, you are a paleotroll. And a paleotroll you shall remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2012 04:06PM by pborst.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 14, 2012 04:11PM

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You again. hmmm. You are Paleo right, a moderator
> on a Paleo forum. Your original purpose back in
> November was to come here accuse us of trolling on
> your board and assume we are were harleyites...
> was it not? You claimed everyone on this
> Board was responsible for Harley's post on your
> paleo board. My memory is not so short. Pretty
> clear we don't all follow Harley's or Doug's tune.
> So now, you have seen wisdom and are posting on
> your own. Doesn't mean we forget paleo trolls.
> If you want to make good sport, apologize to the
> forum for your prior conduct. Apologize to the
> members of rawfoodsupport.com that you falsely
> accused ot trolling on your website. Until you've
> done that, you are a paleotroll. And a paleotroll
> you shall remain.

I'll apologize IF and WHEN Harley is banned here. End of story.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 14, 2012 04:14PM

Just as I figured. No accountability, no willingness to own your transgressions. [www.rawfoodsupport.com] Harley's conduct on this board is not in question, sport. Your is. If you want to stop trolling, then make good. If not, you are on ignore sir.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 14, 2012 04:20PM

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I'll apologize IF and WHEN Harley is banned here.
> End of story.


Um, excuse me? Not one of us has the power to ban anybody. How you can hold us responsible for that is beyond me. Come on now...

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 14, 2012 04:22PM

And just so there is no revisionism. Here is your original October post

A request for Durian Rider and friends
Posted by: cherimoya_kid ()
Date: October 30, 2011 01:02AM


Hi, my name is cherimoya_kid. I have been a raw foodist for about 10 years now. I am a moderator over at rawpaleodietforum.com. I'm a member of several other nutrition boards as well, but that's the only one I'm active on.

Over the last 2 years or so, DurianRider, his girlfriend, friends, and various other fruitarians and vegans have sporadically, rudely, trolled my forum. I have banned at least 40 or 50 vegan troll usernames there, most of them by the same few people, over and over and over.

"I don't come here and troll this board. I think it's only fair that you people stop trolling MY board, please.

And that's that. I wish you all well on your journey to good health.


Take it back. You made a false accusation. Own up.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2012 04:29PM by pborst.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: rawgosia ()
Date: February 14, 2012 06:02PM

Cherimoya, I really don't know about Doug. I never met him and so I am not going to judge him. I can only talk from my experience. I am far from perfect. For example, I could exercise more and sleep more. I am a research scientist and so as one can imagine, I spend a LOT of time thinking and visualizing abstract objects. I went raw at the age of 40, and realized I was into fruit not long time afterwards (read my story at [www.rawgosia.com]). This is me around the age of 40 before (the photo on the left, the one on the right is from 8 years later and I still look and feel better):



This is me around the age of 40 after:





This is my recent photo (after mono-ing on rockmelons for some days):



This is a video of me waving hi the same day (just in case of any photoshop doubts):
[blog.rawgosia.com]

I am 48 today. My work colleague who has seen me every day, including my bad days, has asked me recently how old I was, "because you look like I did in my late 30s". When I had a reunion with my class mates last year in Europe, friends of the (grown up) kids of my mates took me for my mates' much younger friend. In sauna, a guy could not believe that I had a grown up son. I have been wondering about this. In my eyes I look like a mature person, but perhaps not as worned out like I could be. I have experimented and without fruit I don't feel nearly as great as on fruit. I feel my absolute best on plain fruit diet.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 14, 2012 06:04PM

Gems - Thx, it was in the 'Mucusless Diet Healing System' by Ehret on page 151. After a fast, he recommends the first and subsequent meals for a couple of days to be more on the laxative side than nutritious. Which is in order to move out of the intestines the loosened waste matter/poisons/mucus etc.

Kiddo - I'm still waiting for those studies re thinning of myelin sheath due to lack of fat in the diet, or where you obtained the info that supports it (not just your opinion). And yeah, if you're diet is 'raw paleo', then why exactly do you post here? I have noticed that your posts are usually of a controversial nature, so are you here to disprove the benefits of a 'raw vegan' diet or what?

Yes, everyone is welcome here as long as they stick to the rules, but I believe that an apologty would be, and should be forthcoming Kid, since when you said 'YOU PEOPLE', you included everybody on this forum, and I for one haven't logged on to yours. So what say you???

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 15, 2012 09:43AM

>
> Hi, my name is cherimoya_kid. I have been a raw
> foodist for about 10 years now.....
>
> "I don't come here and troll this board....

CK,

I would submit to you that yes in fact you do come and troll. You make blanket statements about unproven unsubstantiated risk from eating a low fat raw food vegan diet. You haven't responded affirmatively to any question or challenge to the veracity of your claim. You haven't produced a Pub-Med cite or even a testimonial (not that it would be evidence) to back your claim.

You come here speaking about your personal experience and "people you've talked too who follow 80-10-10", make disparaging statements also unsubstantiated about Doug Graham and Harley Johnstone. You claim the aforementioned were neurologically affected. No proof. Not one shred of a hint of evidence.

There is a word for that. When you come into a forum and share your story and your experience and don't try to generalize, that's cool. When you fearmonger, lay supposition and conjecture as fact and make ad hominem attacks on people you don't even know, that's not cool. That's trolling. You hate the label. Stop it.

btw, as an aside, noone here will mistake me for an 80-10-10 fan. It's not my diet personally. I'm a big fan of Joel Fuhrman (high raw, not all raw). But many of my friends here are. And they say it is working well for them. I take them at their word. As you say, whatever else you can say about the participants, they aren't fat which is something most Americans can't say.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 09:46AM by pborst.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 15, 2012 10:00AM

It's a dangerous diet. And Harley trolls my board. Everything I've done here is in response to those two facts.

People, just because SOME people have at least TEMPORARY good results, doesn't mean the diet isn't dangerous for a significant portion of the population. I know a lot of raw foodists who've complained of extreme anxiety and mood swings on a low-fat high-fruit diet. I'm not even the only person on this THREAD who has mentioned that. Look back to page 2.

There's plenty of common-sense support for a raw food diet. 80/10/10, not so much.

I'm trying to help people. I'm surprised that none of you sees that. I'm getting absolutely no credit for that sincere effort. Is that what I should expect?

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 15, 2012 10:11AM

Trying to help people who don't wish to be helped is not help at all, that's verging on abuse. The church, government, nosy neighbours etc also try to "help" in that way. Unhelpful and outrageous to expect credit for it.
Sharing your personal story is helpful, so long as it's presented as that instead of a one-size-fits-all prescription for perfect health for everybody. People can promote what works for them without having to tear down everything else. Nobody has all the answers and people want to work out what the best solution for them is themselves, you know? Advice is nice, when it's asked for. But coming here and endlessly flogging your personal beliefs, getting into angry scraps about it... how are you behaving any differently than DR? You both think you're right when all either of you is is right for yourself.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 15, 2012 10:23AM

cherimoya_kid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a dangerous diet. And Harley trolls my board.
> Everything I've done here is in response to those
> two facts.

Let's not assume facts not in evidence. You continue to affront many people on this board whose experience does not match your own. Could your problem with the diet be something else, an allergy a food sensitivity? How can many people thrive on what you call a dangerous diet? The real danger is that some poor bastard who is fat and slow and really could benefit from 80-10-10 or another raw vegan diet will listen to you and ignore the door to success.

> People, just because SOME people have at least
> TEMPORARY good results, doesn't mean the diet
> isn't dangerous for a significant portion of the
> population. I know a lot of raw foodists who've
> complained of extreme anxiety and mood swings on a
> low-fat high-fruit diet. I'm not even the only
> person on this THREAD who has mentioned that. Look
> back to page 2.

More anecdotes without testimonials. People are expected to take your word as truth and just change their diets? You think too much of yourself.

>
> There's plenty of common-sense support for a raw
> food diet. 80/10/10, not so much.

You haven't done anything other than blow smoke so I'm not a big fan of 8-1-1 personally. But I cannot deny the success of the approach for so many people on this board. It works for them. Monomeals work for them. Food combining works for them. 80-10-10 works for them. What makes you the arbiter of what is right and what is wrong?

> I'm trying to help people. I'm surprised that none
> of you sees that. I'm getting absolutely no credit
> for that sincere effort. Is that what I should
> expect?

You shouldn't be suprised. You've done nothing in 3 1/2 months to make anyone believe. You speak in generalities. You have nothing but your personal experience. Well guess what, they do too.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2012 10:24AM by pborst.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: February 15, 2012 10:25AM

cherimoya_kid,

Quote

I'm trying to help people. I'm surprised that none of you sees that. I'm getting absolutely no credit for that sincere effort. Is that what I should expect?

Please see pborst's post directly above yours. You would seem more helpful if you had actual evidence, and not anecdota, to support your assertions that the diet is dangerous long term for all who use it. You would seem more helpful if you at least attempted to make the distinction between Harley's actions on your boards and the rest of us minding our business here and never even venturing to your site. You would seem more helpful if you didn't resort to borderline slander to cheaply make your argument: Doug Graham's looks have declined so rapidly--it MUST be the diet! You would seem more helpful if you weren't constantly implying, "Well, it's your funeral" to people expressing ebullient happiness and relief that this diet is working for their health. That's not just a buzzkill; that's spite. Yes, it is, and is the opposite of a sincere effort to help.

You have repeatedly made your point about how, because your[admittedly imprecise]version of 80/10/10 made you mentally unstable, the rest of us are doomed, DOOOOOMED to succumb as well. We get it. We heard you.

You may return to Paleoland, where, by the way, people are more willing to hear that fruit=death, you know, content in your magnanimous soul that your warnings have been registered.

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 15, 2012 03:08PM

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You may return to Paleoland, where, by the way,
> people are more willing to hear that fruit=death,
> you know, content in your magnanimous soul that
> your warnings have been registered.

See, and now you're misrepresenting ME. I don't say that "fruit=death". I'm actually one of the biggest proponents of fruit over at my forum.

That's not because I think that fruit is automatically great. It's because I've noticed that eating only HIGH Brix fruit makes a giant difference in my health. Low Brix fruit can still easily produce all the weird anxiety/irritation/whatever symptoms. High Brix fruit doesn't. It's as big a difference as night and day.

A lot of people on my forum have really weird health issues when eating fruit. I am a tireless promoter of eating HIGH Brix fruit, as a way to avoid those problems. It works for me. I probably eat close to a pound of fruit a day, maybe even 2 pounds some days. I also make SURE that I'm getting plenty of fat as well. Between the high-fat and high Brix, my symptoms are totally under control.

I'm certainly not the only raw foodist, vegan or RAF, who swears by high Brix. There are two separate Yahoo groups about Brix and health, one of them is run by Rex Harrill, owner of the crossroads.ws site, and author of the Brix Book. His group is very active, with lots of members.

I'm bringing good info, stuff that will help you on your path to good health. I haven't been doing this for 12 years now for nothing. Use my knowledge.

And as far as scientific studies go, nobody has done any long-term study on 80/10/10, and nobody ever will. It's a niche diet that will never catch on.

Similar studies of low-fat COOKED diets would not be equivalent, because the body more easily stores and converts to fat the cooked grains that most low-fat dieters are eating.


And coco, I'm not trying to force my help on anyone, nor force my diet on anyone. HARLEY and DR D are the ones doing that. I'm exposing the dangers of that diet. I'm not saying SOME people won't do well on it, at least for the first few months or years. However, I think it ultimately fails in the long run. Dr D looks awful, and somehow I doubt that's coincidental.

I'm raising DOUBTS about a "one-size-fits-all" prescription. You're accusing me of the opposite. Do you understand that?

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Re: 80/10/10
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 15, 2012 03:19PM

I understand that you think you're being helpful and that's admirable. However, this may not be the audience for your wisdom and you would do well to recognize that. People here know where to find you, you've made your experiences available online on your own forum and created a space for others of like mind to share theirs as well. That's enough though, seeking out other sites where a different diet is followed and promoted that you don't agree with and trying to change people's minds about what may very well be working for them is stepping over the line and is NOT helpful.
You admit that people may be benefiting from 811 or whatever else it is that they're doing, respect that. When things change, people change what they're doing, refine their diet and lifestyle etc. We are all on a healing path, it's an ongoing adventure, and we will all have to adapt to changes in health, environment etc as we traverse it. When something no longer works for me I change it, until then who are you or anyone else to tell me that what I'm doing is not right for ME? If and when I want someone else's advice or opinion, I'll ask. Until then, back off. Offer your experience where it's appropriate. A raw vegan forum may not be that place. Think about it.

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