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how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: February 21, 2012 08:57AM

Hi.

I new to raw food (4 weeks in) but I still take fish oil supplements. It does help me in several ways. What should I take to get the same results?

Thanks

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:15AM

There are lots of vegetarian and vegan omega fatty acid supplements, talk to somebody at the health food store where you buy your fish oil. Borage, evening primrose, flax, hemp etc. Also, including whole chia in your diet is a great whole food source of omegas.
[www.thechiaseed.com]

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:23AM

Thanks. Do you think the only good thing about fish oil is the omega3? I think it makes me feel calmer and helps me with skin smoothness. I apologize for the basic Q. Would vegetable omega3 produce the same results?

Thanks

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:26AM

The reason for taking it is the omegas so yes, I think plant sources are just as good smiling smiley. They are certainly mood stabilizers.

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:28AM

thanks

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:47AM

Panchito,

Welcome to the forum. I'm Paul. Good talk to you. You definitely do not need to consume fish oil as many Omega 3 (long chain, i.e. DHA, EPA) supplements made from algae are available. [www.veganhealth.org].

First, when you consume vegan sources of short chain omega 3s (i.e. alpha-linolenic acid), your body will convert some of these short chain omega 3s to the longer chain omega 3s (i.e. DHA and EPA) naturally without supplements. A blood test will or would tell if your body is doing it's job. It's important not to take in too many omega 6 sources or to consume food sources that have a good ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 (less than 1:4 omega 3 to omega 6). In practical terms and in plain english that means:

- consuming adequate amounts of some of the following: flax seed, chia seed, hemp seed, perilla seed, walnuts, purslane (a green), leafy greens, canola oil (limited)
- avoiding, corn oil, safflower oil any oil concentrated in omega 6
- not avoiding but balancing nuts and seeds that contain high omega 6 to 3s (e.g. sesame seed, etc). These foods are healthy but need to be balanced by omega 3 rich foods which are much harder to get than omega 6 which is much more ubiquitous.

And then a direct source of vegan DHA may not be necessary. A blood test will tell. I take Dr. Fuhrman's DHA purity which comes a dark blue bottle to protect its freshness and I pay something like 50 cents a day for the privilege (one of the more expensive vegan DHAs, other's like DEVA and SPECTRUM are less).

You may not need a vegan DHA or EPA supplement if your eating enough short chain omega 3s. But if you want to be sure or insurance, the url above should give you some choices. For depression select a formula that has high EPA to DHA ratio. It's better for mood control. If you are having problem finding such a formula (I haven't looked), there is a vegan EPA only formula you could add [www.futurebioticsstore.com] For this supplement it pays to buy in groups of 3 bottles to get the discount. Best.

And let us know how you fare!

Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:50AM

Canola? No freaking way. That's not a food, that's for greasing machinery.
The rest of that was great info but I'm shocked to see a recommendation for "Canadian Oil".

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 21, 2012 10:34AM

Coco,

Maybe you can tell me why you don't like canola oil (I did say limited). Before saying agree to disagree, I may agree with you. Can you tell me what your specific concerns are?

My understanding is that canola oil is a hybrid (not GMO) of rapeseed oil that contains low levels of erucic acid, a toxin that poses risks when cooked at high temps. Other than that, I know it's also called linseed oil and has industrial applications (as does olive oil). So, my question is I would ask you what are your concerns healthwise and otherwise. This maybe like fluoride in the water where once I read your information, I will change my position. Learning is an ongoing process. Let me know! winking smiley

Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 21, 2012 10:52AM

Linseed oil is actually flax, not canola. I'll look up some links for you about canola. It's completely and totally off my list of consumables...

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 21, 2012 11:06AM

right, linseed oil is flax, which also has industrial application like rapeseed oil. Looking forward to reading your links Coco. Thank you in advance.

Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Panchito ()
Date: February 21, 2012 02:56PM

Thanks for the info and the links

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 21, 2012 02:58PM

Of note in this article ~ "All food grade canola, including the varieties sold in health food stores, are deodorized from its natural terrible stink with 300 degree F. high temperature refining."

When heated omega 3 fatty acids quickly oxidize (become rancid) and produce cell-destroying free radicals.

[www.dldewey.com]

The oil from natural rapeseed contains erucic acid, highly toxic to the heart. Rapeseed that is modified to produce oil that contains a lower amount of erucic acid still contains about 1% of this heart-destroying toxin.

Another article here
[www.truthaboutabs.com]

And another. On behalf of Canada, my apologies :'(
[urbanlegends.about.com]

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 21, 2012 09:01PM

Coco,

That's a lot to read my dear. But I will have at it and give you my reaction in the morning. You will still have to get passed the Lyon study.

[www.mediterrasian.com]

It was a canola based randomized control trial, a relative rarity in nutritional science. And the intervention was so successful, they had to discontinue it for ethical reasons.

I will look into your cites Coco. But I'm betting we will agree to disagree which is ok! winking smiley We're still buds.

Paul

"The Lyon Diet Heart Study

In 1988 Michel de Lorgeril, M.D., from the University of Saint-Etienne in France, teamed up with researchers from the French National Center for Health Research to investigate the protective effects of a Mediterranean diet. In what became known as the Lyon Diet Heart Study, researchers randomly divided 605 male and female heart attack survivors into two groups. One group was advised to eat the standard "prudent" low-fat diet suggested for heart patients. The other half were advised to eat a Mediterranean-style diet, complete with plenty of vegetables, fruits, grains, beans and olive oil, small amounts of red meat, moderate amounts of fish and poultry, and wine with meals. Instead of butter they were advised to use a canola oil-based spread.

Although the study was originally scheduled to last for five years, after only two years researchers were so astounded by the differences in the two groups that the study was abruptly ended for ethical reasons. It was found that those following the Mediterranean-style diet had a 70 percent lower death rate compared to those following the prudent low-fat diet. In a follow-up report the researchers also discovered that cancer rates among the Mediterranean group were 61 percent lower than those of the other group.

"The results were spectacular and of unexpected magnitude," reported Serge Renaud, Ph.D. from the French National Center for Health Research, Bordeaux, who helped initiate the study. "The protective effects of the diet began to occur within two months of observation."

In fact, the results of the Lyon Diet Heart Study—results that hadn't been seen in any other diet, drug or medical procedure—were deemed so important that they were published in three prestigious medical journals, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, the Lancet and the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.

Sources:

Renaud S, de Lorgeril M, Delaye J, Guidollet J, Jacquard F, Mamelle N, Martin JL, Monjaud I, Salen P, Toubol P: Cretan Mediterranean diet for prevention of coronary heart disease. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1995) Jun;61(6 Suppl):1360S-1367S.

de Lorgeril M, Renaud S, Mamelle N. Mediterranean Diet, Traditional Risk Factors, and the Rate of Cardiovascular Complications after Myocardial Infarction: Final Report of the Lyon Diet Heart Study. Circulation (1999) 99(6):779-785."

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 21, 2012 10:42PM

Ok, I'm reading this Paul but I don't see a case being made for canola specifically... Am I missing it? The Mediteranian diet is more heart smart than a standard low fat diet, no argument. It is quite high in whole foods, lots of fruits and veggies. A diet lower in butter is better, no argument there either. But the fact remains that canola is processed at extremely high heat, omegas are sensitive to heat... based on that alone, never even mind the 1% erucic acid (I wouldn't eat something with 0.1% sodium benzoate in it!), this isn't a food stuff I think is healthy to consume.

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 22, 2012 09:21AM

Coco,

I've looked through your citations. Thank you for providing them. While I found them useful, they haven't changed my mind about canola. I agree that it and any oil is less preferable as a source of fat than whole foods, nuts and seeds because the latter are more nutritious. So, rather than agree to disagree, I'm going to agree to agree that canola is not the most preferable source of omega 3s! There, how's that! winking smiley

Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 22, 2012 11:36AM

Wait, I still don't get what you think is good about it... what about it being processed as such high heat? I'm missing something...

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: February 22, 2012 11:56AM

Also not sure about the Canola oil factor in the Lyon Study:

How much spread, as opposed to cold, cold-pressed olive oil(heated olive oil is far worse than Canola, IMO)?

Was a mitigating influence noted from the huge amount of anti oxidants from produce?

What about the EFAs from the fish?

What about the cholesterol binding properties of all the fiber in the beans and vegetables?

It's tough to isolate the specific limited effects of this or that thing in a dietary study of this kind, and I suspect, based on the date, this was an attempt to legitimize the new Can-ola Oil[tm] which had just come on the market. That rapeseed hasn't been used in the Mediterranean[except to grow animal feed] until recently supports my suspicion. Gonna look up the original study--hope it ain't in French! smiling smiley

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 22, 2012 02:12PM

fair enough. more on the cold pressed canola. [www.canolainfo.org]

Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 22, 2012 02:20PM

[www.canolainfo.org]
It's heated several times during processing. I can't find info on cold pressed canola except for this bit which follows at least 2 heat treatment steps to arrive as the "press cake" stage.

"Press cake which results from seed processing is next subjected to one of two types of oil extraction to remove much of the remaining oil. Oil may be extracted using either hexane ("solvent"winking smiley extraction or by "cold-pressing" (also referred to as "expeller pressing"winking smiley. The end-market into which the oil is sold generally dictates which form of extraction will be used. Hexane is the extraction medium used for the bulk of canola oil which is sold into the commodity grocery chain market as well as to the food industry. Cold-pressed canola oil represents a much smaller volume sold to consumers and is generally marketed in specialty food stores."

So it's always cooked. I just don't understand how heat processing leaves viable levels of non-rancid omegas.

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 22, 2012 02:26PM

yet, it's 2:1 ratio of 6 to 3 remains. Mostly monounsaturated, some polyunsaturated. and between 6 and 3, the ratio is 2 to 1. sounds good to me.

Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: February 22, 2012 02:30PM

I'm gonna stick with oil that's raw. Of all the foods that I will eat cooked, this isn't one. Agree to disagree.

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: pborst ()
Date: February 22, 2012 02:41PM

k.... I agree to agree as I said above. best. Coco.


Paul

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: rzman10001 ()
Date: February 24, 2012 06:30PM

Maybe a fish oil support group! lol just kidding.

Check out this link, if it does'nt work go to aliveraw.com and put krill oil in the search box. Or just cut and paste this link.

[www.aliveraw.com]

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Re: how to stop cheating with fish oil
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: February 24, 2012 07:12PM

I just realized who Brian Clement reminds me of! The Basilian priest that ran the Catholic junior high I attended! ROTFL!!!


I think eating krill is a crime against whales. What have whales ever done to us? sad smiley

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