Paul, my whole point in this debate was to prove to Coco that human are more noble creatures than other animals. Coco thinks that the life of a person is no more worth than the life of a bee or a chicken.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 02:59AM by Duke.

Duke, give it up. You're never going to "prove" that to me, it's not something that can be proven. You can't brow beat me into submission here with this passive-aggressive arguement of yours. I don't require "re-educating" from you.
"I understand where you're coming from for i have been walking in your path not so long ago." Pft.
We can have a discussion when you get down off your high horse buddy.


It is not in our nature to hunt another creature with our bare hands and tear it apart to eat it raw, skin, bones, organs and all. We are not tigers. We could not take honey from bees without our unnaturally constructed "homes" for them and our protective gear for harvesting the fruits of their hard labour. We'd die from all the bee stings we'd sustain if we disturbed a natural nest in such a way.
We Choose to use our large brains to destroy and exploit other creatures instead of learning to live harmoniously with the rest of nature. It's not neccessary to our health and well-being to use other creatures, there are MANY alternatives. Acting as we do and justifying it with the agruement that we are somehow above all other life on this earth is lazy, selfish, self-indulgent and the ugliest behavior. Don't try to justify it to me, we will never see eye to eye on this.

Coco, why are you angry? Lighten up, it's just a discussion. You're over-reacting, i am not looking down at you from my high horse or whatever!. I dont know you to begin with.

Duke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...my whole point in this debate was to prove
> to Coco that human are more noble creatures than
> other animals. Coco thinks that the life of a
> person is no more worth than the life of a bee or
> a chicken.


Seriously? Come on now. You talk about being respectful of the thoughts of others but the above statement (directed specifically at me) feels FAR from respectful.
You do know that you're on a vegan forum, right? To extoll the virtues of animal products here is complete inappropriate, it's disrespectful too.
It's one thing to utilize animals and their efforts while honestly acknowledging what you're doing for what it is, this entitled justification though is something else. You don't get to take advantage of the enslavement of animals and call it something other than what it is. Be honest with yourself, people don't NEED to do it, they WANT and LIKE doing it. Call things by their real names, prettying it up with this talk of being noble, it's positively sickening to me. I am offended by it.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ...my whole point in this debate was to prove
> > to Coco that human are more noble creatures
> than
> > other animals. Coco thinks that the life of a
> > person is no more worth than the life of a bee
> or
> > a chicken.
>
>
> Seriously? Come on now. You talk about being
> respectful of the thoughts of others but the above
> statement (directed specifically at me) feels FAR
> from respectful.
> You do know that you're on a vegan forum, right?
> To extoll the virtues of animal products here is
> complete inappropriate, it's disrespectful too.
> It's one thing to utilize animals and their
> efforts while honestly acknowledging what you're
> doing for what it is, this entitled justification
> though is something else. You don't get to take
> advantage of the enslavement of animals and call
> it something other than what it is. Be honest with
> yourself, people don't NEED to do it, they WANT
> and LIKE doing it. Call things by their real
> names, prettying it up with this talk of being
> noble, it's positively sickening to me. I am
> offended by it.




What are you ranting about? I dont get it. Do you think that one day all the people will wake up and become vegans and vegetarians? That's only going to happen in our wildest dreams because that's not in our nature.


We are no less wild than the wildest animals, no less savage than the lion himself and what makes us even more dangerous is that we have brains. We can kill thousands and conquer millions, i dont think we'll stop at eating honey or chicken drumsticks. Do you?

I have proven it to you, Coco, and i know that you agree with me but you're not going to admit it, admit it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 04:00PM by Duke.

Coco, did you or did you not tell me you keep a jar of Mannukha honey ("beefood" in your medicine cabinet for your kiddies? LOL

(I really am so not emotionally invested in this particular thread but you are being pretty insistent in an anti-honey stance and I am a bit confused (as I was earlier about another debate we had about "animal enslavement."

Just keeping it real!

Cheers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 04:31PM by banana who.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Coco, did you or did you not tell me you keep a
> jar of Mannukha honey ("beefood" in your medicine
> cabinet for your kiddies? LOL
>
> (I really am so not emotionally investied in this
> particular thread but you are being pretty
> insistent in an anti-honey stance and I am a bit
> confused (as I was earlier about another debate we
> had about "animal enslavement."
>
> Cheers.

lolol, Coco is caught with his tail between his legs. I use Manuka Honey too. It's veery good, Coco, admit it .

Coco is a SHE, as in a mama. I have been reading this thread for the last two days and I just had to chime in because there's no need for such strident talk when you're doing the same thing! Sorry, Coco, but you just seemed to have a BEE () in your bonnet over this...

You, Duke, are completely missing the entire point of this discussion.

Yes, we are not vegan in this house as I have stated for many years now, this is no secret thing I have been "caught" at, lol. I fully admit and totally acknowledge that the animal products we use are part and parcel of the enslavement of other creatures, and that is the point. Call it what it is, don't try to pretty it up and make it into some noble bullcr@p as though humans are entitled to it.
Of note: the small jar of Manuka honey in our fridge has been there for 3 years, it was bought after much consideration and purchased to be used for medicine in cases that would otherwise warrant antibiotics. I bought it knowing full well that it was contributing to the ugly exploitation of other creatures. It's most likely something I wouldn't purchase again, it's certainly not something I would wantonly use for "fun" or nourishment though if I did I would OWN it and not try to brush it off as something other than what it is. Completely selfish.

BW I know we've had this discussion before and you can't or won't understand this perspective. That if you are going to take advantage of the labour of another creature, eat it or it's efforts, wear it's fur or skin, that you honestly acknowledge what it is that's being done and not justify it away. This idea that we can do and take whatever we want because we are the superior species on the planet is sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 04:44PM by coco.

Duke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul, my whole point in this debate was to prove
> to Coco that human are more noble creatures than
> other animals. Coco thinks that the life of a
> person is no more worth than the life of a bee or
> a chicken.

I would never presume to speak for Coco. I've been around for three years or so. Question what makes you think you have a right to speak for her. She's never said what you've said. Your newly created profile coincides with the timeframe that Cherimoya Kid got the boot. I doubt your sincerity, let me put it that way.

Paul

I remember commenting about how I didn't get why it's so bad to consume certain animal products IF the farm treats them well (they're not restricted, not abused in any way) and you mentioned the inherent exploitation. Yes, I was very surprised when you told me about certain products being used in your household and it was due to the passionate language you used in decrying it.

Have you read the Ananstasia series? I have only gotten through the first book and it mentions a form of beekeeping that is different than typically done. I don't know the first thing about beekeeping but I am trying to be conscious without being OCD. If we are too worried about it, I believe it's more of an overdeveloped guilt than compassion for animals.

bw, who is the "you" in your last post?

Paul

Paul, I think the "you" there is me .

BW the semantics of things do drive me a little crazypants sometimes. That and this wilful blind eye thing people do when they are uncomfortable with their own actions. Rather than coming to terms with the reality of things and finding a way to own it, there is often this tendancy to try to see things in a different way, call things by another name, one that is less accurate in the interest of making it more comfortable. It's not honest and that's a slippery slope to self-deception IMO. Why lie? It's against everything this pursuit of health stands for in the grand scheme of things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 04:53PM by coco.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Paul, my whole point in this debate was to
> prove
> > to Coco that human are more noble creatures
> than
> > other animals. Coco thinks that the life of a
> > person is no more worth than the life of a bee
> or
> > a chicken.
>
> I would never presume to speak for Coco. I've
> been around for three years or so. Question what
> makes you think you have a right to speak for her.
> She's never said what you've said. Your newly
> created profile coincides with the timeframe that
> Cherimoya Kid got the boot. I doubt your
> sincerity, let me put it that way.
>
> Paul


I post on CK's forums and on gitmr, and i know alot of users here are frequent visitors to those two forums and vice versa. And i have registered using the same username and i am aware that you can check my ip and know that CK and myself are two different users.

I am sincere about everything i have said so far. I just post to have fun and read what others have to say because i am too new to raw food. I am just experimenting and finding what best suits me.

Are you fine with that, because if you re not, let me know what other concerns you have so we can discuss and clear all. I have no ill intentions and i would like to be part of all the communities, this one being one of them.

I am thirsty for learning.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You, Duke, are completely missing the entire point
> of this discussion.
>
> Yes, we are not vegan in this house as I have
> stated for many years now, this is no secret thing
> I have been "caught" at, lol. I fully admit and
> totally acknowledge that the animal products we
> use are part and parcel of the enslavement of
> other creatures, and that is the point. Call it
> what it is, don't try to pretty it up and make it
> into some noble bullcr@p as though humans are
> entitled to it.
> Of note: the small jar of Manuka honey in our
> fridge has been there for 3 years, it was bought
> after much consideration and purchased to be used
> for medicine in cases that would otherwise warrant
> antibiotics. I bought it knowing full well that it
> was contributing to the ugly exploitation of other
> creatures. It's most likely something I wouldn't
> purchase again, it's certainly not something I
> would wantonly use for "fun" or nourishment though
> if I did I would OWN it and not try to brush it
> off as something other than what it is. Completely
> selfish.
>
> BW I know we've had this discussion before and you
> can't or won't understand this perspective. That
> if you are going to take advantage of the labour
> of another creature, eat it or it's efforts, wear
> it's fur or skin, that you honestly acknowledge
> what it is that's being done and not justify it
> away. This idea that we can do and take whatever
> we want because we are the superior species on the
> planet is sick.


So you admit to using honey then as a substitute to Antibiotics. You've done good. Cant blame you here.

"This idea that we can do and take whatever
> we want because we are the superior species on the
> planet is sick.
"

Its not an idea, it's the plain truth, reality. Now do i aprove of it? Ofcourse not, but a man gotta do what a man gotta do. I roll with the punches; like you.
And dont think any of this will change anything, and lemme tell you another fact, we're gonna have tougher days ahead of us for our species, because that's how we are. We are a virus to this planet, and that's in our DNA. It's our nature.

You, myself, paul, and the others a just a minority. We dont have the power to change anything. We will never be able to do anything about it, because that's just the natural course of things.

Anyways, Coco, i think we have said everything we wanted to say. It's been good chatting to you but the discussion is taking a course that others might not approve of.

Let's talk about other things later.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 05:17PM by Duke.

The bee keeper is not stealing honey from the hive. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement. The bee keeper builds the bees a home, the hive box, trucks them to good foraging areas, protects them, and alot more work in their care. In return for his efforts on the bees behalf the beekeeper is entitled to the honey comb he takes. Far more honey bees prosper because of the beekeeper than would without him.

While it is a good arrangement for the honey bee, native to Europe, it is a curse on the 4000 species of bees native to North America. A blessing on one animal is invariably a curse on others as the balance of nature shifts. Habitat for native bees has been destroyed and the European honeybee is stealing all the nectar from flowers native bees should be pollinating.

The greatest harm to the beautiful bee diversity of this continent is to have and support the alien European honeybee.

[bugguide.net]

[www.nps.gov]

[www.xerces.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 05:21PM by brome.

Coco, I am sorry but I didn't understand what you meant by semantics. I realize that it's not always black and white and I do get irritated when people rationalize away various aspects of animals products. BUT I don't think it's evil to shop for organic yogurt at WHOLE FOODS(gasp!) on our route towards sainthood

> >
> > I would never presume to speak for Coco.

But you did.
>
>
> I post on CK's forums and on gitmr, and i know
> alot of users here are frequent visitors to those
> two forums and vice versa. And i have registered
> using the same username and i am aware that you
> can check my ip and know that CK and myself are
> two different users.

having two different ips does not make you two different users. I would just say if you are somebody else giving you the benefit of the doubt, you are off to a rocky start, in my opinion. the timing is a little too convenient for me frankly.


> I am sincere about everything i have said so far.

Sincerity is in the eye of the beholder. I would respect your sincerity a lot more if you didn't become magically drawn to a controversial thread and proffer human supremacy. This forum has a lot to offer. And the timing and your decisions about where to post continue to make me doubt your sincerity. You want to make good. Go to the juicing forum and offer tips on blending and juicing or give a new recipe. It's not just your timing. It's your choice of subjects and topics. I don't care about your IP. It's conduct that separates trolls from bonafide contributers.

> I just post to have fun and read what others have
> to say because i am too new to raw food. I am just
> experimenting and finding what best suits me.

You just post to have "fun" even though your posts seem to make normative statements about long standing members. I don't think so. It's a horse that won't run. best.
>

> Are you fine with that, because if you re not, let
> me know what other concerns you have so we can
> discuss and clear all. I have no ill intentions
> and i would like to be part of all the
> communities, this one being one of them.
>
> I am thirsty for learning.

I continue to doubt your sincerity. A better balance with other threads less controversial and some value added across a range of threads would assuage my doubts. But as of now, I retain them.

I just think it is unfair to to state "Why I do not eat bee food" while you have honey in your fridge. Maybe she forgot she had honey in her fridge.

*I* don't eat it.

Phil Elmore has no place on this forum or any other raw vegan forum. But, the man has/had an eye for trolling and where you draw the line.

He apparently has expunged the eternal guide to trolls and trolling from his own site, yet ... some embers are still red. Please note Duke, this is not for your benefit or CK but for another.. you know who you are. best.

Paul

[infernallogic.com]

The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them.

– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above.

Contrarian warning sign behaviors may be shared by other breeds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 06:50PM by pborst.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *I* don't eat it.

That is worse, you took from the bees for no use.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 07:08PM by RawPracticalist.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > *I* don't eat it.
>
> That is worse, you took from the bees for no use.

hmmm... my point. The fact there is honey on her shelves doesn't mean that she bought it or that someone else in the household won't use it. But what I find interesting is the personal supposition. RP, were you trying to insult?

Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

This is a simple 1 + 1 = 2. No philosophy or Einstein.

coco is telling us that she does not use bee food because of the way they are treated. But she has bee products in her fridge.
Is she raising bee the right way or from a known bee keeper?
You cannot claim to be a bee concerned person while you have their products and do not know how it is made? or does she know?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2012 07:21PM by RawPracticalist.

sure you can. First, I don't take your facts as facts. Coco is a mother who lives with others the same way many vegans do. So how does she use them or does she use them? What about her husband, kids? Could the article have been bought during an earlier time? I have "legacy leather" that goes back to a time I didn't care as much. And I have unavoidable leather I bought because there was not compassionate alternative.

People, glass houses, RP!

Paul

That is pretty hard. I want to change the world but cannot change my household

I agree with Paul, and IMO I think we should call it quits and leave this slugging match. Coco said herself that the honey in her fridge was in place of anti-biotics, and that now she wouldn't buy it due to her changed stance on honey. Another troll trait Paul, is to try and turn one person against another, and I began to see it happening.

This is a raw vegan forum, and to suggest that using animal products is in our nature, and that we can do nothing about it...well, what the hell are they doing here???

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> coco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > *I* don't eat it.
>
> That is worse, you took from the bees for no use.


If you are going to comment on my posts at least read them so you know what you're talking about.

I purchased a small jar of manuka honey 3 years ago to use instead of antibiotics when my child was ill. I keep the rest of the jar in the fridge for the occasions when one of them is very sick. I personally resort to garlic and ginger in those circumstances but kids just won't eat that, lol. I bought it knowing full well that it was stolen from bees, what I DIDN'T try to do was talk myself into thinking it was some innocent action. I put the needs of my kids before that of the bees. I'll own that. It's not something that I'd do simply for tastiness, that's for sure.

I also have "legacy leather" and repurpose silk and wool that I find second hand, these are conscious choices. I kill bugs that are biting me, mosquitos etc, but ants and spiders inside the house get carried carefully outside. I'm not saying that's better or worse behaviour than anything else, what I'm saying is that it's done with honesty and consciousness. IMO all life has value, a value that's not set by our estimation or based on how big or small a creature is. IMO that deserves some consideration when making decisions, particularly from a community that upholds some vegan values.

Anyhow, my kids are home and want my attention so that's it for me here.

Just curious not trying to dig into someone private issues, but why do the "little one get very sick", is the rawness and veganism of their parents not working for them?
They were started on the right path, not into SAD, chewing on organic raw veggies, drinking juices, smoothies.

To bee or not to bee. I presume you are aware of the impact on the earth and its inhabitants due to the use of a computer or other devices to post on message boards on the internet. Is that to be considered a justified impact on animals?