Watch this video and see how hard and for how long these small creatures work to create their home. To come along at the end of the season and steal it all away from them, not only the honey and the pollen, royal jelly, etc, but the WAX that they've painstakingly formed with gorgeous precision... it's just a crime to destroy their homes like that. I can't fathom it, it's like leveling an entire city, houses, businesses, schools, hospitals, parks, everything, every year. How sad. What makes us think we deserve to partake of their incredible effort? Where do we get off, mindlessly stealing like that? We're so horrible.

[www.youtube.com]

i've been vegan for a long time, honey was the only non vegan thing i used, although rare. i'm glad you posted, it is true, i don't want to take away their home. it's time i don't have any of it anymore. i feel really good about this decision actually, thanks coco.

That is why I do not eat tomatoes, the tomato tree works so hard. Plants do not want to be eaten either.

you can eat tomatoes, not too worry, they fall off the vine on their own, you didn't kill the plant or take anything from it.

Using yourlogic, RawPracticalist, perhaps its best not to eat anything

It's a logical fallacy to apply the feelings, emotions, and general condition of humans to bees. How do you know they don't like the process?

Tomatoes grow on vines.

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a logical fallacy to apply the feelings,
> emotions, and general condition of humans to bees.
> How do you know they don't like the process?


Maybe the cow likes to grow it's lovely shanks for steaks for humans too, what do we know? Silly vegans...

Maybe we should not even walk on the grass or open our mouth, we are killing or swallowing micro organisms. More bees and working harder it may not be all bad for them, we still need to treat them with concern and care.

I remember reading of a religious group who wore dust masks all the time so that they would not accidentally breath in a bug and kill it. I think it was something to do with respecting all life. However, I believe that we need to draw the line somewhere, otherwise, like Prana pointed out, we wouldn't eat anything, so we'd starve, or become a breatharian. But then there's plenty of life in the air, isn't there?

Anyway, as far as honey etc is concerned, it's an animal product. Therefore, as aspiring vegans should we eat it??? I know some people who think it's ok to eat honey. And I guess it comes down to whether you do view it as an amimal product, even though it's been made as food. Milk too, is made as a food for the calf, so the same logic can be applied to milk as well as honey. Exactly the same, as the only difference is size. Is it ok to eat honey because the bee is so small, but not ok to drink milk???

I am not vegan but here is the why vegan, why not milk

Quote


Why Veganism?

People choose to be vegan for health, environmental, and/or ethical reasons. For example, some vegans feel that one promotes the meat industry by consuming eggs and dairy products. That is, once dairy cows or egg-laying chickens are too old to be productive, they are often sold as meat; and since male calves do not produce milk, they usually are raised for veal or other products. Some people avoid these items because of conditions associated with their production.
Many vegans choose this lifestyle to promote a more humane and caring world. They know they are not perfect, but believe they have a responsibility to try to do their best, while not being judgmental of others.

[www.vrg.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 02:51AM by RawPracticalist.

The cow thing is another logical fallacy. Look, I'm not trying to bust your balls here, but you know nothing about beekeeping. I know quite a bit about it. You're way off base with your fears and passive-aggressive accusations that honey eaters are amoral while you're morally correct because you don't consume honey. You, like so many vegans (although you're not vegan), don't know what you're talking about. The systemic bias against one side of your brain and the mindless celebration of the other side has left the raw vegan culture in a state where the mass of vegans are border-line retarded. Science and mysticism actually make wonderful bed-fellows. You just have to do the work to get to know science and then become an alchemist who can combine the two and create gold. Capiche?

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's a logical fallacy to apply the feelings,
> > emotions, and general condition of humans to
> bees.
> > How do you know they don't like the process?
>
>
> Maybe the cow likes to grow it's lovely shanks for
> steaks for humans too, what do we know? Silly
> vegans...

The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat bees with immense care. They're aware of the thousands of years that bees and humans have spent evolving together and creating a mutual relationship of respect and benefit to both parties. Bees are not these helpless morons that their would be protectors make them out to be. Bees have even developed a non-verbal language to communicate with humans. For example, if you're working with bees and a few of them start harmlessly bouncing off your head, that means that they're getting sick of you and it's time to back-off. The notion that anyone steals anyone's home at the "end of the season" is just vegan superstition.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe we should not even walk on the grass or open
> our mouth, we are killing or swallowing micro
> organisms. More bees and working harder it may not
> be all bad for them, we still need to treat them
> with concern and care.

Personally i dont see anything wrong in eating honey. I think it's a great source of energy if eaten moderately. I like honey and i like to eat a couple of tea spoons of raw honey daily. Sometimes only one, well most of the times one tspn only cause i dont really crave that much for sugar.

If you eliminate the size and visibility factors, it's impossible to avoid consuming animal products.

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember reading of a religious group who wore
> dust masks all the time so that they would not
> accidentally breath in a bug and kill it. I think
> it was something to do with respecting all life.
> However, I believe that we need to draw the line
> somewhere, otherwise, like Prana pointed out, we
> wouldn't eat anything, so we'd starve, or become a
> breatharian. But then there's plenty of life in
> the air, isn't there?
>
> Anyway, as far as honey etc is concerned, it's an
> animal product. Therefore, as aspiring vegans
> should we eat it??? I know some people who think
> it's ok to eat honey. And I guess it comes down to
> whether you do view it as an amimal product, even
> though it's been made as food. Milk too, is made
> as a food for the calf, so the same logic can be
> applied to milk as well as honey. Exactly the
> same, as the only difference is size. Is it ok to
> eat honey because the bee is so small, but not ok
> to drink milk???



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 06:01PM by HeavenHands.

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat bees
> with immense care. They're aware of the thousands
> of years that bees and humans have spent evolving
> together and creating a mutual relationship of
> respect and benefit to both parties. Bees are not
> these helpless morons that their would be
> protectors make them out to be. Bees have even
> developed a non-verbal language to communicate
> with humans. For example, if you're working with
> bees and a few of them start harmlessly bouncing
> off your head, that means that they're getting
> sick of you and it's time to back-off. The notion
> that anyone steals anyone's home at the "end of
> the season" is just vegan superstition.
>
> RawPracticalist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe we should not even walk on the grass or
> open
> > our mouth, we are killing or swallowing micro
> > organisms. More bees and working harder it may
> not
> > be all bad for them, we still need to treat
> them
> > with concern and care.


I think the bees bouncing off your head is a first warning because the bees know that when they sting they'll die, but if you dont back off, they will sacrifice their life to protect their honey / hive and offspring.

I dont think the bees would allow anyone to share honey with them. We just take it because we can. Some people obviously dont like this fact, but i am very fine with this idea. We are nature's most conscious and most prized creatures. One thing though, as long as we take our need, and only our need and take care of the eco-system and appreciate the gift of bees, then i am fine with it. But that's just me. I know others dont share my enthusiasm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 06:13PM by Duke.

Done a lot of beekeeping, have you?

Duke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat
> bees
> > with immense care. They're aware of the
> thousands
> > of years that bees and humans have spent
> evolving
> > together and creating a mutual relationship of
> > respect and benefit to both parties. Bees are
> not
> > these helpless morons that their would be
> > protectors make them out to be. Bees have even
> > developed a non-verbal language to communicate
> > with humans. For example, if you're working
> with
> > bees and a few of them start harmlessly
> bouncing
> > off your head, that means that they're getting
> > sick of you and it's time to back-off. The
> notion
> > that anyone steals anyone's home at the "end of
> > the season" is just vegan superstition.
> >
> > RawPracticalist Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Maybe we should not even walk on the grass or
> > open
> > > our mouth, we are killing or swallowing micro
> > > organisms. More bees and working harder it
> may
> > not
> > > be all bad for them, we still need to treat
> > them
> > > with concern and care.
>
>
> I think when the bees bounce off your head is a
> first warning because the bees know that when they
> sting they'll die, but if you dont back off, they
> will sacrifice their like to protect their honey /
> hive and offspring.
>
> I dont think the bees would allow anyone to share
> honey with them. We just take it because we can.
> Some people obviously dont like this fact, but i
> am very fine with this idea. We are nature's most
> conscious and most prized creatures. One thing
> though, as long as we take our need, and only our
> need and take care of the eco-system and
> appreciate the gift of bees, then i am fine with
> it. But that's just me. I know others dont share
> my enthusiasm.

Duke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat
> bees
> > with immense care. They're aware of the
> thousands
> > of years that bees and humans have spent
> evolving
> > together and creating a mutual relationship of
> > respect and benefit to both parties. Bees are
> not
> > these helpless morons that their would be
> > protectors make them out to be. Bees have even
> > developed a non-verbal language to communicate
> > with humans. For example, if you're working
> with
> > bees and a few of them start harmlessly
> bouncing
> > off your head, that means that they're getting
> > sick of you and it's time to back-off. The
> notion
> > that anyone steals anyone's home at the "end of
> > the season" is just vegan superstition.
> >
> > RawPracticalist Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Maybe we should not even walk on the grass or
> > open
> > > our mouth, we are killing or swallowing micro
> > > organisms. More bees and working harder it
> may
> > not
> > > be all bad for them, we still need to treat
> > them
> > > with concern and care.
>
>
> I think the bees bouncing off your head is a first
> warning because the bees know that when they sting
> they'll die, but if you dont back off, they will
> sacrifice their life to protect their honey / hive
> and offspring.
>
> I dont think the bees would allow anyone to share
> honey with them. We just take it because we can.
> Some people obviously dont like this fact, but i
> am very fine with this idea. We are nature's most
> conscious and most prized creatures. One thing
> though, as long as we take our need, and only our
> need and take care of the eco-system and
> appreciate the gift of bees, then i am fine with
> it. But that's just me. I know others dont share
> my enthusiasm.


No i havent, what's your point?

I don't mean to get contentious with you or anyone else. I'm on this thing lately where I'm astounded by the misinformation wrought from inexperience that pervades the alt health world. You're right to a degree in your assumptions about the bees. Then again, there's what I call a sort of extra-sensory simpatico that exists between bee and keeper that must be experienced to be understood. I get the whole thing about not wanting to die before stinging, but when you're there, it's just different. There's more to it than that. I don't know what else to say. Humans always interpret animals through human psychology. That's a mistake.

Duke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HeavenHands Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat
> > bees
> > > with immense care. They're aware of the
> > thousands
> > > of years that bees and humans have spent
> > evolving
> > > together and creating a mutual relationship
> of
> > > respect and benefit to both parties. Bees are
> > not
> > > these helpless morons that their would be
> > > protectors make them out to be. Bees have
> even
> > > developed a non-verbal language to
> communicate
> > > with humans. For example, if you're working
> > with
> > > bees and a few of them start harmlessly
> > bouncing
> > > off your head, that means that they're
> getting
> > > sick of you and it's time to back-off. The
> > notion
> > > that anyone steals anyone's home at the "end
> of
> > > the season" is just vegan superstition.
> > >
> > > RawPracticalist Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Maybe we should not even walk on the grass
> or
> > > open
> > > > our mouth, we are killing or swallowing
> micro
> > > > organisms. More bees and working harder it
> > may
> > > not
> > > > be all bad for them, we still need to treat
> > > them
> > > > with concern and care.
> >
> >
> > I think the bees bouncing off your head is a
> first
> > warning because the bees know that when they
> sting
> > they'll die, but if you dont back off, they
> will
> > sacrifice their life to protect their honey /
> hive
> > and offspring.
> >
> > I dont think the bees would allow anyone to
> share
> > honey with them. We just take it because we
> can.
> > Some people obviously dont like this fact, but
> i
> > am very fine with this idea. We are nature's
> most
> > conscious and most prized creatures. One thing
> > though, as long as we take our need, and only
> our
> > need and take care of the eco-system and
> > appreciate the gift of bees, then i am fine
> with
> > it. But that's just me. I know others dont
> share
> > my enthusiasm.
>
>
> No i havent, what's your point?

Duke Wrote:
> I dont think the bees would allow anyone to share
> honey with them. We just take it because we can.
> Some people obviously dont like this fact, but i
> am very fine with this idea.


We are nature's most
> conscious and most prized creatures.


Unbelievable.


You'd think for "nature's most conscious" creatures we'd be a little better behaved, no?

Nature's most arrogant, selfish, self-serving, destructive, dangerous creatures maybe...

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat bees
> with immense care. They're aware of the thousands
> of years that bees and humans have spent evolving
> together and creating a mutual relationship of
> respect and benefit to both parties.

How, exactly, is the human/bee relationship of benefit to the bees?

I have close friends who are beekeepers, they make their living from it in fact. And even they will acknowledge that there are many accidental and purposeful, even required, bee deaths associated with keeping hives. I have potentially signed up for a class with them this summer, as I would like to have bee colonies on any future property to pollenate food crops. I won't be taking their honey though, only creating mutually beneficial space for them to be. For them to bee . Focusing on indigenous species is a great way to have the help of bees too, there are many native pollenators to think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 07:23PM by coco.

That's great. I hope you enjoy it. Most vocations have different skill levels.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The overwhelming majority of beekeepers treat
> bees
> > with immense care. They're aware of the
> thousands
> > of years that bees and humans have spent
> evolving
> > together and creating a mutual relationship of
> > respect and benefit to both parties.
>
> How, exactly, is the human/bee relationship of
> benefit to the bees?
>
> I have close friends who are beekeepers, they make
> their living from it in fact. And even they will
> acknowledge that there are many accidental and
> purposeful, even required, bee deaths associated
> with keeping hives. I have potentially signed up
> for a class with them this summer, as I would like
> to have bee colonies on any future property to
> pollenate food crops. I won't be taking their
> honey though, only creating mutually beneficial
> space for them to be. For them to bee .
> Focusing on indigenous species is a great way to
> have the help of bees too, there are many native
> pollenators to think about.

I am not sure i want to eat regurgitated foodstuff from bee's anyway lol. I don't believe we need it and it is way to rich to comsume in much quantity. When I was a kid I ate too much honey a few times and did not feel to good. Not like any other sugary natural foodstuff I have ever tried. Maybe it was just me but never will I do that again. I believe animal products should only be used when there is nothing else to eat. Like if we were still a primitive people and we had a bad crop year we could resort to these things.

Humans are really the most noble creatures on earth, Coco. Dont let anyone convince you that a bee or any animal as a matter of fact are more noble than you are. Human Life is sacred. Everything around you, the creator made for you, and only for you.

I know the world has turned into a big money generating network which devours anything that comes in its way, but dont lose hope. Eat well and all, but in moderation, enjoy life and live to the fullest, exercise and work-out and you will see the world in a different state of mind.

I can't even believe what I'm reading here. The arrogance, it's positively astonishing. The most noble? Good grief. We are ONE among thousands of creatures, we are no better than any of them. The world does not exist for our use, for our pleasure. We are no more sacred than the breeze. We have consciousness, we can use it to be responsible stewards of the planet or we can be selfish little children thinking that everything is here just for us.
I have zero use for religion so please, if that's the direction you're aiming in, don't bother me with it.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't even believe what I'm reading here. The
> arrogance, it's positively astonishing. The most
> noble? Good grief. We are ONE among thousands of
> creatures, we are no better than any of them. The
> world does not exist for our use, for our
> pleasure. We are no more sacred than the breeze.
> We have consciousness, we can use it to be
> responsible stewards of the planet or we can be
> selfish little children thinking that everything
> is here just for us.
> I have zero use for religion so please, if that's
> the direction you're aiming in, don't bother me
> with it.


I hear you Coco, and i respect your opinion as I know several people over the internet and also in real life who share your thoughts and sympathy. I understand where you're coming from for i have been walking in your path not so long ago.

My opinions have nothing to do with religion. I, myself, am not a religious person but your life and soul dont compare with that of an insect or a chicken. Believe it or not, but you're trully a more noble creature than all animals and that's coming from a person who loves animals. I spend alot of time feeding wild animals and even talking to them (lol).

If you dont learn how to respect yourself nobody will. Such is the world we live in. No wild animal will spare your life in the wild if you encouter it. If you put a lion and a deer in cage for example, the lion and the deer will not understand your logic which says all animals are equal. Nature will take its course and the stronger creature will survive whilst the weak one will end up a meal for the stronger animal.

If the animals themselves dont share your believes, and if you as a superior creature can symathize with them, can feel at a higher state of emotions, this qualify you to be a noble creature. Your logic is flawed. As i said before, i know what you mean and i understand what you re trying to do and i really appreciate it. If most of the people in today's world think like you, our world would be a paradise. But Nature has another course of plans and the wild animals or all other creatures dont share your enthusiam because that's not nature's way. Never has been.

That being said, i totally respect your ideals and accept them as ideals subject to change upon learning and gaining more experience. Everything around us changes, nothing is static. The world evovles as we talk.

In the present, let's continue to talk about more constructive things; things that would make us learn more about all the interesting things this mystical world has to offer for us.

In nature life is taken, eaten out of necessity, the lion has can only feed on other animals, he has no choice, that is how he was made, but we human we have other means of survival, taking life when it is not necessary is a waste, a crime.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In nature life is taken, eaten out of necessity,
> the lion has can only feed on other animals, he
> has no choice, that is how he was made, but we
> human we have other means of survival, taking life
> when it is not necessary is a waste, a crime.



We are also part of this eco-system. We re Humans after all. We shouldnt quantify the human soul and say it's no worth more than that life of any other animal or insect and then later say that the lion is different, that's how he's made. He can kill and tear out of necessity.

Eating to live is not a crime, living to eat is a big mistake. That i agree with. Anyway, i see where you're coming from and i understand your motive just like i also understand the motives of other people who dont share your or my ideals.

In nature it is called equilibrium, food chain, where an animal need to eat another for survival and for natural equilbrium. [www.enchantedlearning.com]

We human have fruits to partake in that equilbrium, we do not necessarly need to eat other animals and their babies.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In nature it is called equilibrium, food chain,
> where an animal need to eat another for survival
> and for natural equilbrium.
> [www.enchantedlearning.com]
> n/
>
> We human have fruits to partake in that
> equilbrium, we do not necessarly need to eat other
> animals and their babies.

Why would it be okay for the lion or any wild animal to kill and eat a deer and its babies when that same right isnt given to humans?

Those are double standards, you cant just say we're equal to a chicken or a bee and then justify what the chicken and bee, lion etc are doing.

If humans are meant to eat fruits only then why does the majority eat animal products? You do know that humans have been eating animal food since the beginning.

Duke,

The philospher Paul Taylor put that one to bed along time ago. We are moral agents, i.e. those who can make conscious decisions about the effects of our actions and we are also moral subjects.. those who can be made better of or worse off as a result of those decisions.

A lion in Africa is a moral subject. A Masai in Africa is both a moral agent and a moral subject. The Masai can think about their cattle. I don't approve of their blood drinking but the lion doesn't want to set there an consider it. A lion is a lion. It does what it was born to do. Are we doing with higher mind doing what we are born to do? Or are we just squandering it?

Paul