We've got some folks with an agenda. I just reported one on the juicer/blender forum. Tall tell signs... 1) dragging up a thread that is more than a year old and asking a controversial question, esp without references, 2) check the profile of the person asking... in my case he just joined literally before the thread was dragged up... telling me he was here to cause trouble.

Do screen troll reports. We don't want to overwhelm Prana. But if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, better to nip it in the bud so Prana can do an IP ban if needed. Best.

Paul

also... a low post count with nothing other than controversial old threads or looking for hot buttons (e.g. David Wolfe, Harley, 80-10-10) may be a sign. There are honest first time posters asking questions. The difference might be if they are a one trick pony (only posting on Harley and nothing else) or may not be trolls if they have asked some genuine value added questions to support a raw vegan journey. And I understand I have telegraphed my criteria and trolls can adapt. We can't stop them from coming in but at least we can raise the bar so to speak. If a thread was designed with the purpose of having more heat than light, it's a troll. Often it isn't the subject but the way the question is asked. If it attacks a personality... etc.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2012 03:40PM by pborst.

Good Paul, we need to be on guard. I've noticed that their posts are mostly controversial and never positive, always designed to cause trouble and put people down, as well as the raw vegan lifestyle. There's one that I keep my eye on who has been commenting and posting for quite awhile now. You'd even call them a regular, but every now and then they let down their guard. I'm not going to name them, as it's possible that I'm wrong too.

All that anger/arguing a while back really changed the mood of this forum, as nearly every time you made a comment, one of the trolls would try to discredit you etc. Bad form, very bad form.

Cheers, geo

???

Well, I rarely post, mostly just lurk & take in info., but this just sounds ridiculous to me. Almost like "big brother" must watch/monitor the forum.

I would like to stick around & chat, but I'm out, don't feel like dealing with the police state mentality - if that's how it's going to be from now on around here.

Please keep in mind that new members of the forum often find it via an internet search that turns up a subject they are looking for, often in the form of an old thread. That isn't a great way to determine trolldom, old threads get turned up now and then. The search function here sort of blows, in case you haven't noticed .

Best remedy for a troll? Starvation. Nobody is doing the site, themselves, or anyone else any favours interacting with or calling those posters out. Once you've positively identified a troll (difficult to do definitively) just ignore. Too bad there isn't an ignore function on this site, that is such a handy feature.

Ridiculous. Someone isn't what your ego needs them to be and they become a "troll." I just did a search for conversations about David Wolfe on this site. This forum's cliquish inner-circle of regulars sure has a history of speaking about him in a negative way. Does that make them trolls? They also freely talk about not being vegan and certainly have no issues with talking about the cooked food they consume, and they do it all on a raw vegan board. They talk about eating popcorn and then in a mob disparage someone like me for saying I wouldn't touch the stuff. I then get on my knees and apologize in PMs only to once again be kicked in the nuts as soon as I even slightly disagree with one of the inner-circle's dictates. Yet, I'm the troll because I'm not a part of the inner-circle and because, oh no, I try to discuss issues with raw foods gurudom.

This site gets next to no traffic. Why anyone with an "agenda" would troll here is beyond me. Maybe it's time for the inner-circle to take a long, hard look at their behavior. Something is driving hits away, and it was happening long before I showed up.

I've said on here many time in the past, I believe that someone on a 100% or high raw vegan diet will look a certain way. It's undeniable. Anyone who questions my sincerity is free to contact me and request a behind the scenes picture exchange for verification.

Thanks Geo. Coco, I agree that starvation is helpful. So is reporting. HH, agree to disagree. I believe that when someone joins and on their first post drags up a three old thread and tries to fear monger the Board with specious information,(s)he is a troll.

Paul,

I think I read that thread over in the Juicing Forum, and fear you might have mistaken a misinformed newbie for someone attempting to disinform deliberately. What they wrote was not what I would consider controversial or provoking; they were just misinformed about what blender carafes are made of. I cannot think of what they would be trolling in aid of . . .

We do need to be vigilant about those trying to push a meatist agenda here, but they are not usually earnest or subtle, are they? We mustn't, in our vigilance, come to see every trite query from a newbie as a potential threat, either. That will result in our driving people away and making this place unwelcoming. Someone new that resurrects an old thread and posts a query that was already answered may not be stirring the pot. They could just be confused about using the search feature, or have new information we aren't aware of, or it could be something else valid. I'm pretty sure that I resurrected old threads when I first got here a few years ago, and am glad that no one misjudged my motives and accused me of being a troll and demanded that I leave!

How did popcorn make it into this thread? Goodness, that stuff just gets everywhere!

Paul, I like hearing new info and don't mind questions about things that others fear or are concerned about but there is netiquette that creates good dialogue for sure. I don't know if awkwardness qualifies as trollery, it's good to give the benefit of the doubt at first, ask a leading question or two to draw out someone's true nature etc. It generally shows soon enough .
I like the tactic of diversion myself, simply making a post that goes back to the original topic, bypassing any foolery that's been inserted along the way. Trollery is certainly as frustrating and maddening as it's designed to be, I'm working on upping my non-reactive tolerance .

Tamara,

I hear what you are saying and would agree with you but for the fear mongering. Going into a board where you know a large percentage of the people own Vitamix products or Blendtecs and claiming that all of them contain "BPB" is needless fear-mongering. So, I look at it a bit differently. If he had just asked the question or was just looking for a glass carafe, I would not have reacted the way I did. To me, it seemed to follow this pattern: newbie comes in and raises old thread about some controversial topic and then either baits or incites.

I don't think there is anything wrote with raising and old thread, or even asking a question about a controversial topic when done thoughtfully. What's not ok is yelling fire in the theater. At least that's how I see what happened on that thread.

Paul

Actually I thought Paul went about it right, as he just asked the person to back up their statement about the BPB in the containers used by vitamix and blendtec. Paul even offered to apologise. I read the whole thing and when I commented about having a glass container on my Sunbeam, this guy commented as if I had replied only to them.

I'm not in a hurry to label someone as a troll, and it didn't click with me at all. But in this case Paul knew enough about the toxic aspect of plastic to pull the person up on it by asking for a back up reference. Nothing wrong with that is there???

HH, what's all this about an 'inner-circle'? I don't know of one on this forum. That sort of talk is destructive as it creates the perception of an 'us' and 'them' which can cause dissention among members.

I hear your anger, frustration and hurt HH, but why can't we all get along and not take things too personally? If someone disagrees with us, that's ok, it's an agree to disagree situation if it's not resolved, no prob.

Peace

Geez, I feel sorry for the JohnA guy. I wonder if he knows he was trashed over here. I also have a Blendtec and I hate that it's plastic, and the top is rubber. I always had glass previously and never use plastic for my food or to store food. I think it's a legitimate concern and I thought it was encouraged that if you want to post about some subject or other to go back and see if it's been discussed previously, and if so to continue with the old thread rather than just starting a new thread on the same subject.

He seems totally sincere and legitimate to me.

i dont find anything wrong with dredging up old posts ..in fact i quite enjoy them cuz more often then not i probably never saw it in the first place so in that capacity it can be helpful

i do agree with paul tho that dredging up an old post and making wild unsubstantiated tabloid like headline claims ..is .. a .. troll



...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

You are responsible for how you react. As a matter of fact, I detest the term 'troll' because it isn't always defined as someone who is making up things just to create chaos but those who "stir up sh*t." You only get stirred up if you identify with your opinions. So shunning people whose opinions don't mirror your own (or even seem over-the-top) sounds pretty intolerant and cold to me.

Having come here later than many of you guys, I do feel there's a bit of an inner circle, as HH suggests. People who tend to defend each other, ignore those outliers whose views don't neatly fit in or whose behavior is not seen as genteel. I can't help but notice how it falls in line with group dynamics in real life. People always seem to want to join forces with certain others and exclude those who aren't like them. Not saying it's going on all the time with all the people, but I do believe it happens.

*To clarify: "you" is the universal you. And who doesn't have an agenda? In any case, who cares if someone has something they feel driven to express. How does it hurt us? 'Let it be' sounds like a plan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2012 02:55PM by banana who.

BW, you know that we don't always see eye to eye on everything but we still manage to have respectful dialogue around those issues. I consider you part of the solid group of "regulars" on this forum because of that, because you're not a particular sh*t disturber for no other reason than to vent your issues, you know? When you disagree you speak up but you're not horrible about it, you're not abusive or rude or passive aggressive, you act like a grown up. People who behave like that, who are generally dissenters who have lots of negativity to toss around but not much of value to add in terms of information or personal experience? If those people end up feeling left out of whatever "group" they assume is here it's probably because they are in fact being rejected by the majority of people. Not because of who they are or how long they've been here, simply because of how they behave.
I have seen this happen here, just as in real life. If a person in rl joins a discussion and has lots to say but nothing really to add they end up being ignored or told off. Seriously, if a person runs around acting like an obnoxious jerk what else do they expect to have happen?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2012 03:03PM by coco.

I hope no one feels excluded for giving their opinions on the forum and from my point of view i don't agree with an awful lot of the wishy washy stuff but i try to be as open minded as possible. Many must see my username on posts and go ohh no here he goes again, but with the small amount of knowledge i have learned during my health battles, is it better than i correct what i see is wrong now or the user sits 5-10 years ill like i did believing low blood sugar was detox and so on and so on. The sad bit is that many people don't like having their opinions and beliefs challenged or corrected.

Learning is a process and everyone has to put pride aside at some point, in order to advance their pool of knowledge. I think the majority of us users get on fine here even when we have to agree to disagree on a subject.

On the troll note, i have to say i disagree on this one Paul sorry. Either way benefit of the doubt must be given, people find posts from search engines infact that is where a large part of the forums traffic comes from old articles and posts. We have a good platform here where a number of different views towards healing and health can be put forward without censorship, it would be a pity to ruin that by scaring new members off.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2012 03:23PM by powerlifer.

Agree to disagree Chris. I respect your right to your opinion.

Coco, I truly hear what you are saying. The difference between a-holes in real life and online is that we can turn off the computer, avoiding reading/opening their posts, threads etc. on forums. You can't avoid getting poisoned by a jerk in real life.

DR gets a lot of negative responses. I agree that he often crosses the line in his ridicule of some raw gurus but I think it's Prana and John's call, not ours. I don't have a problem with his posts. It's on him what he does and sometimes he has a point. I think we can learn from everyone and he certainly walks the walk. I give him credit for that.

PL, I so agree. Censorship has no place here.

It would help a GREAT DEAL if there was an ignore function for specific posters here as there is on other forums. In fact, I have hardly been to a community forum that lacks that feature, I know this site is very basic but you'd think that would be included. It certainly makes it easier to avoid trolls entirely if everyone puts them on "ignore" and never feeds into their nonsense.

Coco,

I think that's a great idea. Should we suggest it to Prana?

coco & Krefcenz, I looked to see if the installed software had a "ignore user" feature, and I could not find it. I looked at the Phorum support forums, and apparently someone does have a custom module that can do this function, but it is not currently installed (as far as I can tell), and I personally don't have the admin rights to make software upgrades to the system. If this is something you would like, you will have to take this up with John Kohler.

One telling sign if someone is a troll is they do as Paul stated, which is revive and old thread, cause some drama, and then leave. This is sort of what has happened in this case. Unfortunately, we can't tell if the poster left because Paul "outed" them, or they were truly a troll. Paul, perhaps in the future we can give a person the benefit of the doubt, and allow them leave multiple signs of their trolldom before we push the issue.

Paul did ask if there was proof that Blendtec or Vitamix containers did indeed contain the toxin Bisphenol B, but there was no response or evidence. A simple search into Google will not turn up any proof that either of these plastic carafes contain this toxin.

So why mention this "fact" (that plastic carafes contain BPB ), when in fact, there seems to be no evidence nor has anyone experienced any kind of toxicity from these carafes? Hmmmmm.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2012 07:14PM by Prana.

I agree it was a bit off but I felt like absolute proof would have shown itself in another post or two, now I'm not sure if that person was naughty or simply a bit clueless.

Prana,

Pointed taken. Sorry if I jumped the gun. There was a thread a month or two on an old thread "Black Pepper" same pattern, a little more clear "Trollio", and there have been other reinventions on other threads esp wrt Harley, 80-10-10 David Wolfe, etc. Looks like somebody has an axe to grind. I felt in this case it seemed to be more of the same. And I agree I was too aggressive. Given the recent past, I may be overly sensitive to people who come here not to assist with our raw journey, but to undermine it.

I will be more respectful and assertive in the future and give benefit of the doubt. And I know where the report button is. Best

Paul


Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One telling sign if someone is a troll is they do
> as Paul stated, which is revive and old thread,
> cause some drama, and then leave. This is sort of
> what has happened in this case. Unfortunately, we
> can't tell if the poster left because Paul "outed"
> them, or they were truly a troll. Paul, perhaps in
> the future we can give a person the benefit of the
> doubt, and allow them leave multiple signs of
> their trolldom before we push the issue.
>
> Paul did ask if there was proof that Blendtec or
> Vitamix containers did indeed contain the toxin
> Bisphenol B, but there was no response or
> evidence. A simple search into Google will not
> turn up any proof that either of these plastic
> carafes contain this toxin.
>
> So why mention this "fact" (that plastic carafes
> contain BPB ), when in fact, there seems to be no
> evidence nor has anyone experienced any kind of
> toxicity from these carafes? Hmmmmm.

BW, I got the feeling that partly, you may have been referring to me when you were talking about those who support others, and some of what you said is true. I'm not having a 'go' at you, as I consider you a friend, and a very knowledgable one at that

You said....

'People who tend to defend each other, ignore those outliers whose views don't neatly fit in or whose behavior is not seen as genteel. I can't help but notice how it falls in line with group dynamics in real life. People always seem to want to join forces with certain others and exclude those who aren't like them. Not saying it's going on all the time with all the people, but I do believe it happens'.

Paul and I do seem to have similar views, but we definately have differences. And yes, I do support him if I believe it's called for, and vice-versa, as in the case with JohnA. Prana has to some extent vindicated both Paul and I in that issue. I suspect that Paul is more assertive than I in real life, and I say assertive not aggressive, as what took place wasn't aggression IMO. We are not the same, but I accept him for who he is. We are all different, and react differently when faced with various issues. Who am I to criticise someone for who they are as a person, or for their unique personality? And the same could be said in regard to a new-comer, for what we may consider 'trolling', may only be their way of expressing themselves.

I don't feel that I'm any part of a 'inner circle' either. In fact, there are times when I feel on the outer, and that my contributions are ignored or misinterpreted etc. I know that these thoughts are coming from my own negative issues, when in reality, I suspect the opposite is true, that I'm generally respected and valued on this forum.

And really, this forum is one of the most informative and respected out there IMO. Furthermore, it's not an easy thing to communicate via text, and takes a great deal of interpretive skills when compared with a 'face to face' situation. There are no verbal or non-verbal cues, such as intonation or body language to help in receiving the correct meaning that the person you are talking to is trying to convey.

So, at times misunderstandings occur, and if we have an issue with taking things too personally, the outcome can be anything but positive or upbuilding for us. Nevertheless, we are intelligent enough to work it out without the problem turning into WW3...well usually

I agree with Prana's sentiments, as well as those of others here, that we could give new comers the benefit of doubt and wait for more tell-tale signs of 'trolldom' prior to unsheathing our cutting unstuments.

Peace and enlightenment to us all,
geo x

We need to differentiate between someone who is a troll and someone we disagree with. I have mellowed and even don't mind DR now - even though I don't agree with a lot of what he proffers. DR and DW offer a lot, and the few '' failings '' they have compared to the good they do is nothing compared to the destruction that many people on the outside do, so we should focus our bile and vitriol on the outsiders rather than DR, DW and DG.

As long as posters stay within the parameters of vegan and mostly raw they should be welcome to express a difference of opinion, but I also think that by ignoring them we take the oxygen out of their system.

Geo, I actually wasn't even thinking about you. I just checked to see when you arrived and it was the same year as me (2009). I understand that others on here have been here years before I got here. And it only makes sense that you bond with people that you've "known" the longest. But I still notice that human beings in general tend towards clannishness. I think it's one reason why people want to procreate! People tend to discriminate in favor of those who echo their values.

Putting someone on Ignore seems to me the equivalent of sticking one's fingers in their ears until they hear something which echoes their values. How do we grow if we only allow similar opinions?

If I were to ever label a behavior "trollish," it's consistently making random remarks which do not serve anything. Hate to call anyone out, but "Raw Alice" (who went *poof* as quickly as she arrived) would do that all the time, especially in response to me. And I noticed that one of the chief crusaders against "trolls" was very accomodating to Raw Alice. Interesting...

Is that when you joined Geo? I know the site's crashed more than once so those dates are not always accurate. The sad bit about that is the loss of an extensive archives. Too bad about that.

There are a few people who consistently make random remarks which do not serve anything. I often find myself wondering if it's actual one or two people with more than one user name. I don't understand the motivation behind putting that much effort into an online site but whatevs.

geo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Paul and I do seem to have similar views, but we
> definately have differences.

Doesn't everyone?

>And yes, I do support
> him if I believe it's called for, and vice-versa,

Got your back

> as in the case with JohnA. Prana has to some
> extent vindicated both Paul and I in that issue. I
> suspect that Paul is more assertive than I in real
> life, and I say assertive not aggressive, as what
> took place wasn't aggression IMO.

I appreciate your kindness, Geo. I did kind of go off under the theory that a troll in the hand is worth two in the bush. Prana's point is understood. My point should be also. This incident is not the first instance. If I had it to do over, I would have politely asked John A to provide support without labeling and quietly reported him to Prana as a "person of interest".

My mistake was to openly confront him on his first post. I'm still convinced he is a troll.

>We are not the
> same, but I accept him for who he is. We are all
> different, and react differently when faced with
> various issues. Who am I to criticise someone for
> who they are as a person, or for their unique
> personality? And the same could be said in regard
> to a new-comer, for what we may consider
> 'trolling', may only be their way of expressing
> themselves.

Geo, we will talk Super Angel, and new recipes, or what sprouts are best. I don't get uptight about that. I'm not personally responsible for conflict of the month. Though I agree maybe for April. Conflict is inherent. And we will reencounter it. The question is are we prepared to adequately respond to it when we do? I am. I assume you are and most here are. Prana is the moderator. I'm content with reporting it quietly and asking the poser er.. poster to back up statements when they are made so that all may benefit.


> I don't feel that I'm any part of a 'inner circle'
> either.

The whole inner circle thing is 11 th grade insecurity. Many of us recognize each other and send pms share personal stuff,etc though some are late on friending on FB... hint hint. If there is an inner circle, I must have been late to the meeting.

In fact, there are times when I feel on
> the outer, and that my contributions are ignored
> or misinterpreted etc. I know that these thoughts
> are coming from my own negative issues, when in
> reality, I suspect the opposite is true, that I'm
> generally respected and valued on this forum.

I can only speak for myself, but you are. When I goofed on the fruit attachment price, you were there. Much appreciated.


> And really, this forum is one of the most
> informative and respected out there IMO.

Agreed. If you want to go to a raw vegan forum that has great recipes and is really dead.. Go to goneraw.com. Or go to Rawfoodtalk.com and check in and get berated by Alisa Cohen's "inner circle". I find Prana and John incredibly tolerant. And for that I am grateful.


> So, at times misunderstandings occur, and if we
> have an issue with taking things too personally,
> the outcome can be anything but positive or
> upbuilding for us. Nevertheless, we are
> intelligent enough to work it out without the
> problem turning into WW3...well usually
>
> I agree with Prana's sentiments, as well as those
> of others here, that we could give new comers the
> benefit of doubt and wait for more tell-tale signs
> of 'trolldom' prior to unsheathing our cutting
> unstuments.

As previously posted, agreed. I jumped the gun. And he's still a troll.

> Peace and enlightenment to us all,
> geo x


You too geo.

Paul