during my recent exploration of various versions of raw food diet I found website in which are many reports of serious health issues related to prolonged use of the 811 diet. 811 has become for many a religion including the streak of religious fanaticism and anger.

[30bananasadaysucks.com]

I've been on the fence about posting this here, as I've been a part of this community for my entire raw journey, many years, and it's likely borderline ban-material, so I apologize in advance. This is just the truth and my thoughts stated respectfully. I do think it's an experience that should be shared, but I will not push the out-of-bounds areas of this subject beyond this post.

It is all relevant, and I'm hoping the relevance will help some to consider important issues that may effect the long-term viability of this community (I love raw food and the consciousness the movement embodies so much!)... and hope it does extend a hand to some who may be really struggling...

After six years of vegan, 4.5 of those raw, hitting all the marks on fitday.com, fermenting my food, eating local, seasonal, yada yada, I bottomed out with a severe hormonal imbalance.

Normal blood tests suggested I was perfectly fine.

When I started having whacked-out periods and bleeding for weeks straight, I went and saw a naturopath. It turns out, I have extremely low cholesterol, which led to the series of worsening hormone malfunctions... The body NEEDS cholesterol to build hormones.

The failure of this diet, for me, apparently, was the lack of cholesterol. Not vitamins, not minerals. This is my true experience. Older members on this board know that I've been around forever and how much I love every second living this way...

***

-Talk about DILEMMA.- We all know where cholesterol comes from!

***

Now, note, that a raw vegan diet had totally healed me from all of my SAD-related ailments. It gave me a glimpse of what optimal health can be like. It taught me to listen to my body. It taught me to eat pure food, respect the earth and its creatures, to live in circles vs. a linear state of expansion.

Raw vegan diets are an AMAZING healing tool.

However, there is the cold, hard, reality, that they are not 100% sustainable over a period of YEARS. It make take DECADES for problems to manifest. It may NOT be wise to cleanse endlessly for DECADES, and indigenous health is what really raises my eyebrows. I lived this diet out of my heart and loved it more than anyone...

Nobody talks about failure in these communities, but lots of people crash. I think there needs to be a support for that. I understand the purpose of this forum and it's wonderful, but it is excellent to at least be aware of sources on the outside if you do require some heavy troubleshooting.

I am defining failure as no longer being able to handle a drive to work in the morning because panic attacks are so severe. Not being able to fall asleep at night because panic attacks are so severe. Failure, as in something lacking in the diet to the point every aspect of normal life is compromised.

Oh, yeah, and it's pretty scary.

.

Some people do this just for a health experiment, but even before I was vegan, I was vegetarian for years. When I was a kid, I always avoided meat and if I thought about it, it really freaked me out. Some people, I think, are BORN vegetarians, they are born with an inclination to avoid flesh. I was born this way. My boyfriend, who has also been raw with me, was not, so the endgame for both of us is a bit different.

I have to question in 10,000 years ago, in ancient India, was there really any cruelty in lacto-ovo vegetarianism? Veganism, ethical veganism, at its core, is an outcry against the horrors of factory farming. EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS OUTCRY IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Industrial farming is a DISGRACE to the earth, it's a disgrace to our bodies and our children. The same goes for plants, however, the vice of industry knows no bounds, one needs to look no further than GMO crops to see just how DESPERATELY the earth needs an intervention from human greed, or it will cost us our entire food supply.

The raw cry of my body is that I need small amounts of foods beyond the bounds of a plant-based diet. This does NOT mean I have returned to participating in cruelty, however. I will eat only plants or starve before endorsing the drugging, torturing, and imprisonment of animals.

It's like being between a rock and a hard place when a devout vegan gets failed by veganism.

-This does not mean veganism is a FAILURE.- I've been deeply involved in the community, have seen it work miracles and save lives. But as a tool, it could have limited applications for some.

The closest answer I've found to being between that rock and hard place is looking into the past and seeking the wisdom of our ancestors, a la (Weston A. Price). The earth was once in better health, so were we. Some of them did slaughter animals (I could never have the guts), but they had a heck of a lot more respect than people have today.

I've got to get some land. Then I can do lacto-ovo with no questions asked. I would worship my animals and love them so much. This is the real endgame. I'm trusting others, in the meantime, but if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

I haven't had a single panic attack since I've introduced the ethical eggs. The relief was powerful and immediate. It kind of blew my mind that this could happen to me, that my body would so clearly speak for something... not "vegan," in the trendy sense of the word. (*Really, non-harm to all life-forms should extend well beyond what goes on the plate, IMHO.)

Some other ethical-as-possible dietary tweaks, plus some potent herbal supplements and adaptogens have normalized my cycles at a cursory glance. However, the dead-as-a-doornail libido shows no signs of revival. This is quite tragic. I had first written it off to stress, when I was going through some rough times (last.. YEAR), and it never came back. All the symptoms fit together, now. Reintroducing cholesterol has taken the edge off, but it could take MONTHS to rebuild.

There are such things as dairy farmers that don't prematurely kill their cows, and let them play outside in the grass all day. They only have about four cows and getting involved with that scene costs a fortune. But there really are some very clean, no-harm-done situations you CAN find. I'd rather say this than have a floundering lover of animals give up and support something awful. I spent DAYS and NIGHTS of little sleep seeking these types of places out. Lots of phone calls. Lots of questions. Lots of talking with the farmers. (I like the ones that are vociferously anti-GMO! ^.^)

And that's my story.

I have not abandoned my crusading love for the earth. The paradox is, I must sustain myself to continue living on it...

Anyhow, I shall never speak of this again. My diet is still very largely plant-based, and that's the purpose of this forum, so that's what I will discuss. And respect for life all the way...

Hi phantom,

I’ve talked about this issue many times and I call this the Science and Art of Healing and is my version of Biochemical Individuality. The Science is simple - remove all of the Primary Causes by Satisfying all of our Needs. The Art is a lot more complicated because of the Ripple Effect. We cannot change the Condition of our Body overnight. Our Bodies might not be able to make certain Level 2 Nutrients, like Cholesterol, and since Cholesterol is the precursor to all of our other Hormones and if we’re not making any Cholesterol, we’re screwed! Other Level 2 Nutrients some people might not be able to make, especially if their Livers are compromised, are Taurine and DHA and yes, phantom, “ethical eggs” are an inexpensive have to address these issues.

The fact that you are not making any Cholesterol is a good indication that you may still have some Liver issues, e.g. Gallstones. You might want to look into taking an Amazonian Herb called Chanca Piedra. Whole Foods sells a tincture called Stone Breaker. Just follow the instructions and 1 bottle will last about 2 weeks. No telling how many bottles you’ll need, but if you incorporate a Juice Feast at the same time with some Coffee Enemas, you’ll be amazed at your results in as little as 30 days, although, you might need to go longer.

When it comes right down to it, we are Not Biologically Adapted to eat Animals, but most of us have not been raised this way, so we may have damaged our bodies and may need to supplement the Diet we were designed to eat. This does not mean that our Ideal Diet is Not Ideal, but rather, our bodies are no longer Ideal.

Anyway, I really feel for you and truly do understand your conclusions, as it is a common argument used against the Diet we evolved on for 99% of our existence. We can’t change our anatomy and all of a sudden start eating Foods we’re Not Biologically Adapted to eat, but if our bodies are damaged, we have to learn how to Modify the Ideal so that it works for us.

Peace and Love..........John

Hey anadikaal,

Doug, like most Natural Hygienists, does not understand the Ripple Effect and does not make allowances for any Temporary Impairment or Permanent Damage that we might have. Natural Hygienists do, however, understand the Law of Cause & Effect and do so much better than everyone else, but they don’t know that there is a way to screw up the Law of Cause & Effect and that is to not consider the Ripple Effect…see my post above.

Peace and Love..........John

you have made assumptions
and
drawn conclusions

since you said,


"fermenting my food"

one wonders what other mistakes you made that impacted your health

Whats wrong with fermenting food?

Fermented foods have a number of health benefits especially when it comes to restoring the gut flora.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

powerlifer,

i have a funny feeling that nothing i say will have any impact upon your opinion.

phantom,

your proof of " failure of this diet, for me, apparently, was the lack of cholesterol."

is provided by what? you may be right, ,but as you may know,, many people make wild Conjectures ....

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer,
>
> i have a funny feeling that nothing i say will
> have any impact upon your opinion.

Maybe not as i am a fan and have had good success with fermented foods but im openminded, there must be some reason you feel it was a detrimental factor to Phantoms health ?.

In my opinion any fermented foods would have helped improve digestion if anything so i can't see why they would be a bad thing.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 03:41PM by powerlifer.

I agree with John Rose and phantom. Came to the same conclusion recently, based on some things I was researching. Thankfully I'm OK on raw vegan for now. But we are all unique, many of us have genetic conditions. Some people don't make, or absorb certain nutrients. It's all good, nothing wrong in adjusting the diet accordingly, if that what helps. I'd never eat meat for nothing in the world, but like phantom would consider "ethical" dairy, if I had to.

products of fermentation


ammonia
acetic acid
lactic acid
carbonic acid

the above
prevent the digestion of foods
and are wastes produced by the bacteria

"products of fermentation


ammonia
acetic acid
lactic acid
carbonic acid

the above
prevent the digestion of foods
and are wastes produced by the bacteria"

This is maybe so but it feels counter-intuitive to me. My body responds excellent to fermented food, and it healed me from antibiotic damage. There is a lot of 'fermentation' taking place in our body, which is filled with bacteria, and thanks to them we are alive! Those who drink milk know that a good quality yogurt is much easier to digest than plain milk...

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> products of fermentation
>
>
> ammonia
> acetic acid
> lactic acid
> carbonic acid
>
> the above
> prevent the digestion of foods
> and are wastes produced by the bacteria

Actually it is the small amount of acids produced by the live bacteria that aid the digestive process and keep opportunistic pathogens such as candida in check.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

So that "30bananasadaysucks" is really a site? I don't think the word "sucks" is going to draw a learned audience. Personally I haven't clicked on it yet.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses, everyone. I don't know what else to say, other than that, life is a journey!

But I definitely need to stay strong and healthy so I can have the strongest, healthiest kids... and get them closer to that ideal.

You have to dig on that 30badsucks site, but there is some thought-provoking material. There's lots of anti-vegan propaganda, there are militant vegans, and there are a lot of people who fell in love with the "fruitarian ideal" of paradise on earth, looking for answers. There was a discussion somewhere and someone said, "My grandma drank and smoked a pack a day and still lived to be 109." Someone else pointed out that almost everyone back then was breastfed and raised on organic food...

So it really goes to show what epigentics is all about. My in utero environment was a nightmare.

I was SOARING on raw vegan until 2011, consequently, the same time I started going through some insanely stressful times. I had a few weird things happen to me (resurgence of cold sores, cracking lips, heart palpitations) over a year ago, but I never thought to to question my diet because IT HAD DONE NOTHING BUT GOOD hitherto. Then libido slowly started tanking...

The body's requirements definitely change with stress. I could have started eating B-12 by the bottle at that point and it might have helped, things may have never gotten to the point they did. I wish I had known about DHA. I've been on licorice and rehmannia for my adrenals, and... wow. I felt kicked in the back for about a week when I started taking them. I wish I could have known to take it preventatively. Maybe it would have been enough to keep my hormones afloat.

But now, things are the way they are, and my body can't create what it needs from what I've been giving it. I have to find a different recovery diet. And then a new balance point... and then... who knows. Hopefully next summer I will have an uber-garden fed with bio-char and watered with trap water. <3

Part of the journey and why there are so many different answers for everyone is that nothing is perfect. The land is depleted in so many ways, our parents have been depleted, we've been fed less-than-fresh food, not breastfed as long as necessary, so many things. So a lot of us were born compromised and much of the land is compromised.

It's cool that we're here, having a dialogue and looking at ways to change it!

I think it's amazing, all the things we can do with technology and share information. We have so many methods of clean energy, sustainable farming, incredible opportunities right at our fingertips. We have the power and the means to do it in a way that is better-than-ever. We don't NEED to pollute or enslave other beings (humans included...), so I'm all about embracing that as much as possible.

I actually just got an Omega 8006 FOR FREE (*!*) and have been loading up on the green juice, mostly stuff that comes out of my organic backyard garden, weeds and all, plus some local apples.

I think a lot about evolution, and one kind of immortality in the sense of the impact we leave upon the earth (environmentally, creatively, and in terms of offspring). I want my kids to be an upgrade!

phantom,
I sure appreciate your thoughtful responses.


My favorite raw vegan

Yes, it is a site. It is created by young people, hence the word 'sucks'. They are actually quite knowledgeable in the matter. Not very psychologically mature, but then the creator of 811 does not appear to be either. The original site 30Bananas is apparently the largest food site existing. It attacks mostly young people who follow the philosophy of 811, and there is a lot of foolish cult stuff happening there. In addition to other things, many people seemed to lose their good health but adhering fanatically to that LFRD, at least according to the way it is being interpreted there.

it mispelled a word, it should be 'attracts mostly young people'...

phantom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The body's requirements definitely change with
> stress. I could have started eating B-12 by the
> bottle at that point and it might have helped,
> things may have never gotten to the point they
> did. I wish I had known about DHA. I've been on
> licorice and rehmannia for my adrenals, and...
> wow. I felt kicked in the back for about a week
> when I started taking them. I wish I could have
> known to take it preventatively. Maybe it would
> have been enough to keep my hormones afloat.

Most definitley Phantom, this is what annoys me about issues getting swept under the carpet and people feeling scared to come forward when it comes to diet. Someone who is extremely for example copper toxic, severe adrenal fatigue or even genetic conditions such as pyroluria may not be able to make a all plant based diet work. Where as someone with average health may have good results. Then the blame gets reverted back to the individual for not having done the diet right. If a diet requires you to balance on a tightrope and not have the odd late night or piece of junk food then id argue that X diet isn't as health promoting as you might think.

Everyone is unique and we have to be open minded when it comes to health and diet. Id rather hear about potential issues people are having with any diet than hiding it away and pretending everything is rosy.

Sounds like your naturopath was bang on with the lack of hormones/cortisol.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2012 08:23AM by powerlifer.

phantom,

I really admire your brave self-examination, and value your presence here. Wishing you continuing improving wellness, always

I think people have different genetics, different glands, etc. A diet that works for some may not work for another. The fat content may be the cause for change in the hormone levels, but so is the caloric amount, protein amount, etc. For example, people that try to cut a few pounds eat less but this could create an hormonal change that may prevent the weight loss. It is not easy to figure out what works for you by reading a book. A book may convince you, but the final word is in the practice.

the naturopath did what test to determine low cholesterol?

and the level was?

Yes, it can, when instead of following your own body signals, you rely on the "expertise" of the uneducated "gurus" who censor out any information about the potential problems their recommendations might bring from their forums, bully those who reports such problems, and issue threats against those who report such stories.

Get informed, do not follow "gurus", use your curiosity and be open to evolving, are the safeguards against the problems.


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Simple question phantom.
Unanswered.
So I cant use your story to make any informed judgment.

I do not believe something absent evidence,
As opposed to many.

Thanks for the insight Phantom. Kwan had similar problems. Here's a post she made:

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]



California Brome Grass

and kwan was just as vague about her experience in that post.

sounds like i'm being critical but when people are not specific there's no way to draw conclusions

of course people should do what works but "my naturopath said i'm low in cholesterol" doesn't mean anything.

or

"However, over the years, no matter how I tweaked the diet, no matter how faithfully I adhered to the diet,"

doesn't mean anything. What diet? salt intake? foods? amounts?