So..on facebook, in a gay vegan mens group, Im having a debate with a guy who claims there are no peer reviewed studies on raw vegan diets, and there are studies disproving them (which in itself is contradictory). He claims all evidence is anecdotal and theres no *real* evidence...only pseudoscience at best. I told him that there are some studies via Dr Cousens and Brian Clements, however I cant find specific examples. I also told him that funding for such studies is hard to come by, as most scientific studies are funded by corporations with interests to back. He also said, if raw food cures cancer, why arent there major studies on this...to which I told him....MONEY, POWER, GREED from big pharma...THATS why....but this idiot just wants to keep arguing. Im sure even if I do cite a study, he may still keep sticking his fingers in his ears going *LALALALALALA" but Id love to give more concrete evidence, if anyone has any references for me. In the mean time Ive asked him to show a study from a vegan source that raws raw food isnt enough....he is conveniently ignoring this request....

Even if you had concrete evidence (and it is out there, check pubmed), I doubt you will convince this man. He evidently knows what is the truth, so why would he be open to getting input from others, even if there is some proof?

Search for raw vegan at pubmed.

Yeah..I gathered as much. I just did a lengthy response to his article at [eatingconsciously.tumblr.com]


It starts with his article that Ive broken down paragraph, by paragraph...my responces being in between the ********







"Denise Minger says that “ethical vegans” should “consider shellfish” because they “aren’t sentient” and “don’t feel pain.” Even worse, she made this statement on a video with the ever douchey and offensively homophobic Christian nonvegan “raw foodists,” RawBrahs.

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I think thats awful...I recently has the same discussion with someone else. I also find the *rawbrahs* offensive...who btw...were never really raw foodists...fyi.
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The entire video is basically them attempting to debunk veganism by talking about how their teeth started falling out and they couldn’t get erections after being raw vegan. Here’s the thing - their nutrient deficiencies probably had less to do with the lack of animal products and more to do with the fact that they were (and still are) eating an incredibly unbalanced diet that’s bordering on an eating disorder.

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I agree...they probably were eating an incredibly unbalanced diet.....they followed something near the 80/10/10 raw diet, which if done right, by people with certain constitutions has shown some success, but with many others, is quite imbalanced, and the lack of essential fats can lead to those health issues....ie teeth, impotence.

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It’s completely possible for anyone to thrive off a vegan diet, as confirmed by the American Dietetic Association. A balanced diet has nothing to do with whether or not you eat animal products. Everyone needs to be hitting their daily requirements for a myriad of nutrients and quite frankly, contrary to popular myth, eating only raw fruits and vegetables most likely isn’t going to cut it.

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People absolutely need a myriad of food to be healthy, vegan, raw vegan, or otherwise. in order to determine what exactly the issue was with their diets, one would need to know exactly what their diet was, and their lifestyle to get a more holistic view of why this may have happened to them. Simply stating that its because of raw foods does'nt provide any real info. Its simply conjecture without any fact based evidence to back it up. Many folks eat a healthy raw vegan diet high in greens, vegetables, fruits, fresh juices, blended foods, concentried dehydrated snacks which are condensed in nutrition similar to cooked food, but retaining all vitamins, minerals, enzymes, and life force energy.

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Typical to raw foodists, their main point of argument is basically to attempt to debunk scientific fact and promote this idea that they’re just “listening to their bodies.” Bullshit! They’re eating incredibly inappropriately and then blaming their nutritional insufficiencies on the fact that they weren’t eating animal products. It’s interesting that we don’t see these extreme nutrition deficiencies with vegans who are consuming an appropriate and balanced diet, as everyone should be.

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Which typical raw foodists? Just as with any other community, raw foodists come in many shapes, sizes, ages, different philosophies, diets and ideas of what and how much they should eat to be healthy. There are low carb vegans, high carb low fat vegans, and everything in between. There are healthy raw foodists, and unhealthy raw foodists just as there are healthy whole cooked food vegans, and french fry, pasta, bread based junk food diet vegans. Deficiencies can happen on both cooked and raw diets!

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It’s also astounding how they completely eschew scientific fact and as much as they claim to be “experts,” none of them appear to have even the slightest understanding of the scientific method and what is and is not legitimate research. Not a single one of them has an accredited degree in nutrition. Although, even without a nutrition degree, anyone with a basic understanding of science and research would be able to determine that what these people are saying is wildly incorrect.

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I would tend to agree, but to make a determination like this, could you share exactly what they are claiming that goes against scientific fact? Ive heard that they are more anti-vegan, than anti-raw, and most of their arguments relate to that. Ive met many folks and heard arguments from folks who have medical and nutritional degrees, and while one would think (and hopefully they do!) have a great, full, and openminded knowledge of nutrition, I think most mainstream schools today are lacking in a more holistic knowledge of nutrition, including raw veganism due to lack of funding or simply gathering enough people to generate an interest in participating in such peer reviewed studies. The raw food community is small on the whole, and if one is to make a scientific determination of the viability of a raw food, or raw vegan diet in either way, they really cant. We can only look at examples of folks doing it, and hopefully one day there will be more concrete studies on a larger scale that we can cite in this. Just like it goes with many studies though, there are often contradictory ones....some say one needs to eat some kind of animal flesh for vitamin b-12 and DHA/EPA, heme iron, and other nutrients that are found in higher densitys in meat. Many of them argue against a vegan diet for that reason. I personally disagree......and Im sure there are some studies out there that show a vegan diet is a nutritionally complete, and whole diet, but I have yet to see them. Even in the raw food community Dr. Gabriel Cousens says its important to take a b-12 supplement, as most diets, especially the vegan diet cooked or raw, is severely lacking. This is why many cooked vegan foods have added it to their processed foods (altho mostly in the non-enzymatically active form of cyanocobalamin, which apparently doesn't absorb readily into the body, as show in studies done by both Dr. Cousens and Brian Clements.
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What scary about people like Denise Minger, who is adamantly against veganism and follows the radical and false Weston A. Price Foundation, is that these people go around online writing and talking about nutrition, claiming to be “experts, when they’re anything but. In fact, they’re providing some really detrimental information that could cause actual harm to people. If these people were credentialed and licensed nutrition professionals, they would probably have their credentials and licenses revoked and be charged with an ethics complaint for not using scientific evidence and causing harm to the public through misinformation.

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Im not familiar with Denise Minger or the W. A. Price foundation, but that does sound scary. Just to play devils advocate though, as a dietary professional yourself, what makes your knowledge better than theirs, and what scientific peer reviewed studies can you cite to prove your point? If would be helpful in having this information when others like them attack us fellow vegans. Otherwise, they'll just claim that our denfenses or statements of belief are completely *unscientific* and that weve *obviously made up our minds, and will ignore true science, instead relying solely on anecdotal evidence*.
When all is said and done, we should examine as well, what the difference between run of the mill regular vegan diets, vs a holistic person by person balanced raw food diet, as opposed to just assuming all raw fooders, and more specifically raw food vegans are deficient or unbalanced in their diets. Remember, *rawbrahs* were never vegan to begin with.....
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JR’s Condensed Recap of the 24 Raw Food Studies:
Rheumatoid arthritis: 3*, 7*, 8*, 12, 20, 22*
Fibromyalgia syndrome: 3*, 14, 21, 22*
Vitamin B-12: 15, 19, 24 (17*, 23*)
Nutrient Intake: 17*, 23*
Fecal microflora: 1, 12, 18(*colon cancer)
Bacterial Cellular Fatty Acids: 1, 12
Antioxidants: 2, 3*
Menstruation: 4
Coumarin 7-hydroxylation: 5
Dental erosions: 6
Energy and Nutrient Intakes: 8*
Chemoprevention: 9
Hypertension and Obesity: 10
1 Week Benefits: 11
Fatty Acid Composition: 13
Immunity: 16
Allergic, Rheumatic and Infectious Diseases: 16
Gas-Liquid Chromatography (GLC): 1, 12
Colon Cancer: 18*

1) An uncooked vegan diet shifts the profile of human fecal microflora:
computerized analysis of direct stool sample gas-liquid chromatography
profiles of bacterial cellular fatty acids., Appl Environ Microbiol 1992
Nov;58(11):3660-6

GLC profiles changed significantly in the test group after the induction and discontinuation of the vegan diet but not in the control group at any time, whereas quantitative bacterial culture did not detect any significant change in fecal bacteriology in either of the groups. The results suggest that an uncooked extreme vegan diet alters the fecal bacterial flora significantly when it is measured by direct stool sample GLC of bacterial fatty acids .

2) Antioxidant status in long-term adherents to a strict uncooked vegan
diet., Am J Clin Nutr 1995 Dec;62(6):1221-7

The present data indicate that the "living food diet" provides significantly more dietary antioxidants than does the cooked, omnivorous diet, and that the long-term adherents to this diet have a better antioxidant status than do omnivorous control subjects.

3) Antioxidants in vegan diet and rheumatic disorders., Toxicology 2000
Nov 30;155(1-3):45-53

The shift of fibromyalgic subjects to LF resulted in a decrease of their joint stiffness and pain as well as an improvement of their self-experienced health. The rheumatoid arthritis patients eating the LF diet also reported similar positive responses and the objective measures supported this finding. The improvement of rheumatoid arthritis was significantly correlated with the day-to-day fluctuation of subjective symptoms. In conclusion the rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet rich in antioxidants, lactobacilli and fibre, and this was also seen in objective measures.

4) Consequences of a long-term raw food diet on body weight and menstruation: results of a questionnaire survey., Ann Nutr Metab 1999;43(2):69-79

CONCLUSIONS: The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be recommended on a long-term basis.

5) Coumarin 7-hydroxylation in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked
vegan diet., Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1996;50(1-2):133-7

CONCLUSION: According to the present study, the clearly different dietary patterns and nutrient intakes between the vegans and the omnivores resulted in similar extent and rate of 7-hydroxycoumarin formation, indicating only a minor effect on coumarin hydroxylase (CYP2A6) activity by the plant substances in the uncooked vegan diet.

6) Dental erosions in subjects living on a raw food diet., Caries Res
1999;33(1):74-80

Nevertheless, the results showed that a raw food diet bears an increased risk of dental erosion compared to conventional nutrition.

7) Divergent changes in serum sterols during a strict uncooked vegan diet in patients with rheumatoid arthritis., Br J Nutr 2001 Feb;85(2):137-9

Our results suggest that a strict uncooked vegan diet changes the relative absorption rates of these sterols and/or their biliary clearance.

8) Effect of a strict vegan diet on energy and nutrient intakes by Finnish rheumatoid patients., Eur J Clin Nutr 1993 Oct;47(10):747-9

Shifting to the uncooked vegan diet significantly increased the intakes of energy and many nutrients. In spite of the increased energy intake, the group on the vegan diet lost 9% of their body weight during the intervention period, indicating a low availability of energy from the vegan diet.

9) Effect of a vegan diet on biomarkers of chemoprevention in females., Hum Exp Toxicol 1996 Oct;15(10):821-5

The significance of these changes as biologically relevant indicators of beneficial effects of vegan diets in humans needs to be determined in studies with a larger number of subjects.

10) Effects of a raw food diet on hypertension and obesity., South Med J 1985 Jul;78(7):841-4

After a mean duration of 6.7 months, average intake of uncooked food comprised 62% of calories ingested. Mean weight loss was 3.8 kg and mean diastolic pressure reduction 17.8 mm Hg, both statistically significant (P less than .00001). Eighty percent of those who smoked or drank alcohol abstained spontaneously.

11) Effects of eating an uncooked vegetable diet for 1 week., Appetite 1992 Dec;19(3):243-54

It is concluded that this vegetable diet may be of some benefit in the short term but any longer-term use requires evaluation.

12) Faecal microbial flora and disease activity in rheumatoid arthritis during a vegan diet., Br J Rheumatol 1997 Jan;36(1):64-8

We conclude that a vegan diet changes the faecal microbial flora in RA patients, and changes in the faecal flora are associated with improvement in RA activity.

13) Fatty acid composition of erythrocyte, platelet, and serum lipids in strict vegans., Lipids 1995 Apr;30(4):365-9

The results show that, in the long term, the vegan diet has little effect on the proportions of oleic and arachidonic acids, whereas the levels of n-3 fatty acids are depressed to very low levels with prolonged consumption of the high linoleic and oleic acid components of this diet.

14) Fibromyalgia syndrome improved using a mostly raw vegetarian diet: An observational study., BMC Complement Altern Med 2001;1(1):7

CONCLUSION: This dietary intervention shows that many fibromyalgia subjects can be helped by a mostly raw vegetarian diet.

15) Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements., Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(5-6):229-34

People following the Hallelujah diet and other raw-food vegetarian diets should regularly monitor their urinary MMA levels, consume a sublingual cobalamin supplement, or consume cobalamin in their food.

16) Raw food and immunity, Fortschr Med 1990 Jun 10;108(17):338-40

In view of this, uncooked food can be seen as a useful adjunct to drugs in the treatment of allergic, rheumatic and infectious diseases.

17) Raw Food Eaters: Health Habits and Nutrient Intake(FULL TEXT), Poster for the 16th International Congress of Nutrition, 27.7-1.8.1997, Montreal, Canada

The data show that an almost exclusive consumption of raw fruit and vegetables bear some advantages for nutrient intake but also may carry the threat of serious deficiencies. These findings need to be verified by analyses of nutrient status, a further aspect of this study which is currently under way.

18) Shifting from a conventional diet to an uncooked vegan diet reversibly alters fecal hydrolytic activities in humans., J Nutr 1992 Apr;122(4):924-30

Results suggest that this uncooked extreme vegan diet causes a decrease in bacterial enzymes and certain toxic products that have been implicated in colon cancer risk.

19) Survey of Food and Nutrient Intake of Hallelujah Vegetarians, Nutrition & Food Science 2001;31(6):293-303

What this study reveals is that intakes of most vitamins and minerals are adequate while following The Hallelujah Diet. Only vitamins B12 and D were extremely low. Hallelujah Acres recommends a vitamin B12 supplement and sunshine, the natural source of vitamin D, to make up for these low intakes.

20) Uncooked, lactobacilli-rich, vegan food and rheumatoid arthritis., Br J Rheumatol 1998 Mar;37(3):274-81

The results showed that an uncooked vegan diet, rich in lactobacilli, decreased subjective symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis. Large amounts of living lactobacilli consumed daily may also have positive effects on objective measures of rheumatoid arthritis.

21) Vegan diet alleviates fibromyalgia symptoms., Scand J Rheumatol 2000;29(5):308-13

It can be concluded that vegan diet had beneficial effects on fibromyalgia symptoms at least in the short run.

22) Vegan diet in physiological health promotion., Acta Physiol Hung 1999;86(3-4):171-80

The fibromyalgic subjects eating LF (living food) lost weight compared to their omnivorous controls. The results on their joint stiffness and pain (visual analogue scale), on their quality of sleep, on health assessment questionnaire and on general health questionnaire all improved. It appears that the adoption of vegan diet exemplified by the living food leads to a lessening of several health risk factors to cardiovascular diseases and cancer. Rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet which was also seen in serum parameters and fecal analyses.

23) Vegetarian Raw Food Dietary Regimens: Health Habits and Nutrient Intake(FULL TEXT), Presented as Poster at the Third Internatiobnal Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, Loma Linda, California USA, March 24-26 1997

The intake of nutrients that are usually provided by foods of animal origin is insufficient. These include Vitamins B12 and D, zinc and calcium. On the other hand, the intake of certain protective nutrients, such as Vitamin C and other antioxidants, lie above the national average.

24) Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked
vegan diet ("living food diet" is compromised., J Nutr 1995 Oct;125(10):2511-5

The cross-sectional study revealed significantly (P < 0.001, paired t test) lower serum vitamin B-12 concentrations in the vegans (mean 193 pmol/L, range 35-408) compared with their matched omnivorous controls (311, 131-482). In the vegan group, total vitamin B-12 intake correlated significantly (r = 0.63, P < 0.01) with serum vitamin B-12 concentration. The vegans consuming Nori and/or Chlorella seaweeds (n = 16) had serum vitamin B-12 concentrations twice as high as those not using these seaweeds (n = 5) (mean 221 pmol/L, range 75-408, vs. 105, 35-252, P = 0.025). In the longitudinal study, six of nine vegans showed slow, but consistent deterioration of vitamin B-12 status over a 2-y observation period. On the basis of these results we conclude that some seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply adequate amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12.

Here is a more complete Version of those Studies:

1) An uncooked vegan diet shifts the profile of human fecal microflora:
computerized analysis of direct stool sample gas-liquid chromatography
profiles of bacterial cellular fatty acids., Appl Environ Microbiol 1992
Nov;58(11):3660-6

The effect of an uncooked extreme vegan diet on fecal microflora was studied by direct stool sample gas-liquid chromatography (GLC) of bacterial cellular fatty acids and by quantitative bacterial culture by using classical microbiological techniques of isolation, identification, and enumeration of different bacterial species. Eighteen volunteers were divided randomly into two groups. The test group received an uncooked vegan diet for 1 month and a conventional diet of mixed Western type for he other month of the study. The control group consumed a conventional diet throughout the study period. Stool samples were collected. Bacterial cellular fatty acids were extracted directly from the stool samples and measured by GLC. Computerized analysis of the resulting fatty acid profiles was performed. Such a profile represents all bacterial cellular fatty acids in a sample and thus reflects its microflora and can be used to detect changes, differences, or similarities of bacterial flora between individual samples or sample groups. GLC profiles changed significantly in the test group after the induction and discontinuation of the vegan diet but not in the control group at any time, whereas quantitative bacterial culture did not detect any significant change in fecal bacteriology in either of the groups. The results suggest that an uncooked extreme vegan diet alters the fecal bacterial flora significantly when it is measured by direct stool sample GLC of bacterial fatty acids .

2) Antioxidant status in long-term adherents to a strict uncooked vegan
diet., Am J Clin Nutr 1995 Dec;62(6):1221-7

Antioxidant status was investigated in 20 Finnish middle-aged female vegans and in one male vegan who were following a strict, uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet", by means of a dietary survey and biochemical measurements (blood concentrations of vitamins C and E and beta-carotene, and the activities of the zinc/copper-dependent superoxide dismutase and selenium-dependent glutathione peroxidase). Values were compared with those of omnivores matched for sex, age, social status, and residence. Antioxidant supplementation was used by 4 of 20 female vegans and by 11 of 20 control subjects. Based on dietary records, the vegans had significantly higher intakes of beta-carotene, vitamin E, vitamin C, and copper, and a significantly lower intake of selenium than the omnivorous control subjects. The calculated dietary antioxidant intakes by the vegans, expressed as percentages of the US recommended dietary allowances, were as follows: 305% of vitamin C, 247% of vitamin A, 313% of vitamin E, 92% of zinc, 120% of copper, and 49% of selenium. Compared with the omnivores, the vegans had significantly higher blood concentrations of beta-carotene, vitamin C, and vitamin E, as well as higher erythrocyte superoxide dismutase activity. These differences were also seen in pairs who were using no antioxidant supplements. The present data indicate that the "living food diet" provides significantly more dietary antioxidants than does the cooked, omnivorous diet, and that the long-term adherents to this diet have a better antioxidant status than do omnivorous control subjects.

3) Antioxidants in vegan diet and rheumatic disorders., Toxicology 2000
Nov 30;155(1-3):45-53

Plants are rich natural sources of antioxidants in addition to other nutrients. Interventions and cross sectional studies on subjects consuming uncooked vegan diet called living food (LF) have been carried out. We have clarified the efficacy of LF in rheumatoid diseases as an example of a health problem where inflammation is one of the main concerns. LF is an uncooked vegan diet and consists of berries, fruits, vegetables and roots, nuts, germinated seeds and sprouts, i.e. rich sources of carotenoids, vitamins C and E. The subjects eating LF showed highly increased levels of beta and alfa carotenes, lycopen and lutein in their sera. Also the increases of vitamin C and vitamin E (adjusted to cholesterol) were statistically significant. As the berry intake was 3-fold compared to controls the intake of polyphenolic compounds like quercetin, myricetin and kaempherol was much higher than in the omnivorous controls. The LF diet is rich in fibre, substrate of lignan production, and the urinary excretion of polyphenols like enterodiol and enterolactone as well as secoisolaricirecinol were much increased in subjects eating LF. The shift of fibromyalgic subjects to LF resulted in a decrease of their joint stiffness and pain as well as an improvement of their self-experienced health. The rheumatoid arthritis patients eating the LF diet also reported similar positive responses and the objective measures supported this finding. The improvement of rheumatoid arthritis was significantly correlated with the day-to-day fluctuation of subjective symptoms. In conclusion the rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet rich in antioxidants, lactobacilli and fibre, and this was also seen in objective measures.

4) Consequences of a long-term raw food diet on body weight and menstruation: results of a questionnaire survey., Ann Nutr Metab 1999;43(2):69-79

OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between the strictness of long-term raw food diets and body weight loss, underweight and amenorrhea.
METHODS: In a cross-sectional study 216 men and 297 women consuming long-term raw food diets (3.7 years; SE 0.25) of different intensities completed a specially developed questionnaire. Participants were divided into 5 groups according to the amount of raw food in their diet (70-79, 80-89, 90-94, 95-99 and 100%). A multiple linear regression model (n = 513) was used to evaluate the relationship between body weight and the amount of raw food consumed. Odds of underweight were determined by a multinomial logit model.
RESULTS: From the beginning of the dietary regimen an average weight loss of 9.9 kg (SE 0.4) for men and 12 kg (SE 0.6) for women was observed. Body mass index (BMI) was below the normal weight range (<18.5 kg/m(2)) in 14.7% of male and 25.0% of female subjects and was negatively related to the amount of raw food consumed and the duration of the raw food diet. About 30% of the women under 45 years of age had partial to complete amenorrhea; subjects eating high amounts of raw food (>90%) were affected more frequently than moderate raw food dieters.
CONCLUSIONS: The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be recommended on a long-term basis.

5) Coumarin 7-hydroxylation in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked
vegan diet., Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1996;50(1-2):133-7

OBJECTIVE: Coumarin 7-hydroxylation was investigated in 21 Finnish vegans (20 females, one male) consuming a strict, uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet" and in their matched omnivorous controls, by means of an in vivo coumarin test.
METHOD: A capsule containing 5 mg of coumarin (Venalot) was taken after an overnight fast, and urine samples were collected before and 2, 4 and 6 h after the drug administration. The extent and rate of urinary excretion of 7-hydroxycoumarin was
determined using HPLC.
RESULTS: The total urinary excretion of 7-hydroxycoumarin during 6 h was 58 (range 23-85) and 64 (range 39-92)% of the administred dose in the vegan and control groups. The coumarin index (excretion of 7-hydroxycoumarin during the first 2 h as percentage
of total excretion) was 72% in the vegan and 78% in the control groups. A negative correlation was observed between the coumarin index and the consumption of wheatgrass juice by the vegans (r = -0.60, P < 0.01, n = 21). Proportion of slow hydroxylators (excreting 7-hydroxycoumarin after 4 h) was not statistically different between the groups (5/21 in the vegans vs 8/20 in the controls).
CONCLUSION: According to the present study, the clearly different dietary patterns and nutrient intakes between the vegans and the omnivores resulted in similar extent and rate of 7-hydroxycoumarin formation, indicating only a minor effect on coumarin hydroxylase (CYP2A6) activity by the plant substances in the uncooked vegan diet.

6) Dental erosions in subjects living on a raw food diet., Caries Res
1999;33(1):74-80

The aim of the study was to investigate the frequency and severity of dental erosions and its association with nutritional and oral hygiene factors in subjects living on a raw food diet. As part of a larger dietary study 130 subjects whose ingestion of raw food was more than 95% of the total food intake were examined. The median duration of the diet was 39 (minimum 17, maximum 418) months. Before the clinical examination, the participants answered questionnaires and recorded their food intake during a 7-day period. Dental erosions were registered using study models. As a control 76 sex- and age-matched patients from our clinic were randomly selected. The raw food diet records showed the median daily frequency of ingesting citrus fruit to be 4.8 (minimum 0.5, maximum 16.1). The median intake of fruit was 62% (minimum 25%, maximum 96%) of the total, corresponding to an average consumption of 9.5 kg of fruit (minimum 1.5, maximum 23.7) per week. Compared to the control group subjects living on a raw food diet had significantly (p</=0.001) more dental erosions. Only 2.3% of the raw food group (13.2% of the controls) had no erosive defects, whereas 37.2% had at least one tooth with a moderate erosion (55.2% of the controls) and 60.5% had at least one tooth with a severe erosion (31.6% of the controls). Within the raw food group no significant correlation was found between nutrition or oral health data and the prevalence of erosions. Nevertheless, the results showed that a raw food diet bears an increased risk of dental erosion compared to conventional nutrition.

7) Divergent changes in serum sterols during a strict uncooked vegan diet in patients with rheumatoid arthritis., Br J Nutr 2001 Feb;85(2):137-9

The effects of a strict uncooked vegan diet on serum lipid and sterol concentrations were studied in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. The subjects were randomized into a vegan diet group (n 16), who consumed a vegan diet for 2-3 months, or into a control group (n 13), who continued their usual omnivorous diets. Serum total and LDL-cholesterol and -phospholipid concentrations were significantly decreased by the vegan diet. The levels of serum cholestanol and lathosterol also decreased, but serum cholestanol:total cholesterol and lathosterol:total cholesterol did not change. The effect of a vegan diet on serum plant sterols was divergent as the concentration of campesterol decreased while that of sitosterol increased. This effect resulted in a significantly greater sitosterol:campesterol value in the vegan diet group than in the control group (1.48 (SD 0.39) v. 0.72 (SD 0.14); P < 0.001). A higher concentration of campesterol compared with sitosterol is normal in omnivorous subjects and can be explained by lower absorption and esterification rates of sitosterol. Our results suggest that a strict uncooked vegan diet changes the relative absorption rates of these sterols and/or their biliary clearance.

8) Effect of a strict vegan diet on energy and nutrient intakes by Finnish rheumatoid patients., Eur J Clin Nutr 1993 Oct;47(10):747-9

Dietary intake data of 43 Finnish rheumatoid arthritis patients were collected using 7-day food records. The subjects were randomized into a control and a vegan diet groups, consisting of 22 and 21 subjects, respectively. The subjects in the vegan diet group received an uncooked vegan diet ('living food') for 3 months, and they were tutored daily by a living-food expert. The subjects in the control group continued their usual diets and received no tutoring. Adherence to the strict vegan diet was assessed on the basis of urinary sodium excretion and by the information on consumption of specific food items (wheatgrass juice and the rejuvelac drink). The use of these drinks was variable, and some boiled vegetables were consumed occasionally. However, only one of the subjects in the vegan diet group lacked a clear decrease in urinary sodium excretion. Rheumatoid patients had lower than recommended intakes of iron, zinc and niacin, and their energy intake was low compared to mean daily energy intake of the healthy Finnish females of the same age. Shifting to the uncooked vegan diet significantly increased the intakes of energy and many nutrients. In spite of the increased energy intake, the group on the vegan diet lost 9% of their body weight during the intervention period, indicating a low availability of energy from the vegan diet.

9) Effect of a vegan diet on biomarkers of chemoprevention in females., Hum Exp Toxicol 1996 Oct;15(10):821-5

1. In order to study the potential beneficial effects of a vegan diet, a cross- sectional study was performed and several biomarkers of chemoprevention were measured in a population of female 'living food' eaters ('vegans'; n = 20) vs matched omnivorous controls (n = 20).
2. White blood cells obtained from fresh blood samples were subjected to the single-cell gel-electrophoresis assay. There was no statistically significant difference between the vegans and controls in the parameters 'tail length' and 'tail moment'. However, the 'tail moment' was significantly lower in a subset of the vegans (i.e.in those who did not use any vitamin and/or mineral supplements).
3. Fresh blood samples were exposed in vitro to the mutagen mitomycin C just prior to culturing. After culturing the number of binucleated lymphocytes with micronuclei was scored. There was no difference between the controls and vegans in the incidence of baseline micronuclei, nor in the number of mitomycin C-induced micronuclei. However, a significant correlation (r = -0.64, P < 0.01) between the number of mitomycin C-induced micronuclei and the activity of erythrocyte superoxide dismutase was found in the vegans.
The number of baseline micronuclei increased with age in both groups. These findings may be of biological relevance.
4. The content of glutathione-S-transferase-alpha in plasma was not different between the vegans (n = 12) and controls (n = 12). 5. The present data indicate a few differences in biomarkers of chemopreventive potential in strict vegans vs matched omnivorous controls. The significance of these changes as biologically relevant indicators of beneficial effects of vegan diets in humans needs to be determined in studies with a larger number of subjects.

10) Effects of a raw food diet on hypertension and obesity., South Med J 1985 Jul;78(7):841-4

We examined responses to cooked and uncooked food in 32 outpatients with essential hypertension; 28 were also overweight. By varying cooked and uncooked food percentages and salt intake, patients acted as their own control subjects in this unblinded study. After a mean duration of 6.7 months, average intake of uncooked food comprised 62% of calories ingested. Mean weight loss was 3.8 kg and mean diastolic pressure reduction 17.8 mm Hg, both statistically significant (P less than .00001). Eighty percent of those who smoked or drank alcohol abstained spontaneously.

11) Effects of eating an uncooked vegetable diet for 1 week., Appetite 1992 Dec;19(3):243-54

Biochemical and metabolic indicators were monitored in a group of volunteers suffering from a variety of chronic illnesses participating in a week's course on a special uncooked vegetable diet, known as "living food". Unmatched healthy controls ate the same diet cooked for 2 min in a microwave oven. After 1 week on the regimen, serum protein and urea contents decreased and alanine aminotransferase (ALAT) activity increased in both groups, although all within the normal range. Blood glucose increased in both groups to slightly above normal limits but total serum cholesterol dropped about 1 mmol/l from normal starting levels. Serum tocopherol and retinol increased only in the group eating the uncooked diet. In both groups urinary sodium dropped drastically without a significant change in potassium. Serum and urinary phenol and p-cresol diminished also significantly. It is concluded that this vegetable diet may be of some benefit in the short term but any longer-term use requires evaluation.

12) Faecal microbial flora and disease activity in rheumatoid arthritis during a vegan diet., Br J Rheumatol 1997 Jan;36(1):64-8

To clarify the role of the faecal flora in the diet-induced decrease of rheumatoid arthritis (RA) activity, 43 RA patients were randomized into two groups: the test group to receive living food, a form of uncooked vegan diet rich in lactobacilli, and the control group to continue their ordinary omnivorous diets. Based on clinical assessments before, during and after the intervention period, a disease improvement index was constructed for each patient. According to the index, patients were assigned either to a group with a high improvement index (HI) or to a group with a low improvement index (LO). Stool samples collected from each patient before the intervention and at 1 month were analysed by direct stool sample gas-liquid chromatography of bacterial cellular fatty acids. This method has proved to be a simple and sensitive way to detect changes and differences in the faecal microbial flora between individual stool samples or groups of them. A significant, diet-induced change in the faecal flora (P = 0.001) was observed in the test group, but not in the control group. Further, in the test group, a significant (P = 0.001) difference was detected between the HI and LO categories at 1 month, but not in the pre-test samples. We conclude that a vegan diet changes the faecal microbial flora in RA patients, and changes in the faecal flora are associated with improvement in RA activity.

13) Fatty acid composition of erythrocyte, platelet, and serum lipids in strict vegans., Lipids 1995 Apr;30(4):365-9

The fatty acid composition of erythrocytes, platelets, and serum lipids was compared between subjects who had been eating a strict uncooked vegan diet ("living food" for years and omnivore controls. The vegan diet contains equal amounts of fat but more monounsaturated and polyunsaturated and less saturated fatty acids than the mixed diet of the control group. In vegans, the proportion of linoleic acid was greater in all lipid fractions studied. Also, the levels of other n-6 fatty acids were greater, with the exception of arachidonic acid levels, which were similar in most fractions. In erythrocytes, platelets and serum phospholipid fractions, this increase was mainly at the expense of the n-3 fatty acids. The proportions of eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acid were only 29-36% and 49-52% of those in controls, respectively. In vegans the ratio of n-3 to n-6 fatty acids was only about half that in omnivores. In addition to the lower levels of n-3 fatty acids, the proportions of palmitic and stearic acids were lower in serum cholesteryl esters, triglycerides and free fatty acids of vegans. The proportion of oleic acid was slightly lower only in serum cholesteryl esters and erythrocyte phosphatidylserine. The results show that, in the long term, the vegan diet has little effect on the proportions of oleic and arachidonic acids, whereas the levels of n-3 fatty acids are depressed to very low levels with prolonged consumption of the high linoleic and oleic acid components of this diet.

14) Fibromyalgia syndrome improved using a mostly raw vegetarian diet: An observational study., BMC Complement Altern Med 2001;1(1):7

BACKGROUND: Fibromyalgia engulfs patients in a downward, reinforcing cycle of unrestorative sleep, chronic pain, fatigue, inactivity, and depression. In this study we tested whether a mostly raw vegetarian diet would significantly improve fibromyalgia symptoms.
METHODS: Thirty people participated in a dietary intervention using a mostly raw, pure vegetarian diet. The diet consisted of raw fruits, salads, carrot juice, tubers, grain products, nuts, seeds, and a dehydrated barley grass juice product. Outcomes measured were dietary intake, the fibromyalgia impact questionnaire (FIQ), SF-36 health survey, a quality of life survey (QOLS), and physical performance measurements.
RESULTS: Twenty-six subjects returned dietary surveys at 2 months; 20 subjects returned surveys at the beginning, end, and at either 2 or 4 months of intervention; 3 subjects were lost to follow-up. The mean FIQ score (n = 20) was reduced 46% from 51 to 28. Seven of the 8 SF-36 subscales, bodily pain being the exception, showed significant improvement (n = 20, all P for trend < 0.01). The QOLS, scaled from 0 to 7, rose from 3.9 initially to 4.9 at 7 months (n = 20, P for trend 0.000001). Significant improvements (n = 18, P < 0.03, paired t-test) were seen in shoulder pain at rest and after motion, abduction range of motion of shoulder, flexibility, chair test, and 6-minute walk. 19 of 30 subjects were classified as responders, with significant improvement on all measured outcomes, compared to no improvement among non-responders. At 7 months responders' SF-36 scores for all scales except bodily pain were no longer statistically different from norms for women ages 45-54.
CONCLUSION: This dietary intervention shows that many fibromyalgia subjects can be helped by a mostly raw vegetarian diet.

15) Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements., Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(5-6):229-34

BACKGROUND: Pure vegetarian diets might cause cobalamin deficiency due to lack of dietary intake. It was hypothesized that a population following a vegan diet consuming mostly raw fruits and vegetables, carrot juice, and dehydrated barley grass juice would be able to avoid vitamin B12 deficiency naturally.
METHODS: Subjects were recruited at a health ministers' reunion based on adherence to the Hallelujah diet for at least 2 years. Serum cobalamin and urinary methylmalonic acid (MMA) assays were performed. Follow-up with sublingual tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements was carried out on subjects with abnormal MMA results.
RESULTS: 49 subjects were tested. Most subjects (10th to 90th percentile) had followed this diet 23-49 months. 6 subjects had serum B12 concentrations <147 pmol/l (200 pg/ml). 37 subjects (76%) had serum B12 concentrations <221 pmol/l (300 pg/ml). 23 subjects (47%) had abnormal urinary MMA concentrations above or equal to 4.0 microg/mg creatinine. Sublingual cyanocobalamin and nutritional yeast, but not probiotic supplements, significantly reduced group mean MMA concentrations (tablet p < 0.01; yeast p < 0.05, probiotic > 0.20).
CONCLUSIONS: The urinary MMA assay is effective for identifying early metabolic cobalamin deficiency. People following the Hallelujah diet and other raw-food vegetarian diets should regularly monitor their urinary MMA levels, consume a sublingual cobalamin supplement, or consume cobalamin in their food.

16) Raw food and immunity, Fortschr Med 1990 Jun 10;108(17):338-40

Uncooked food is an integral component of human nutrition, and is a necessary precondition for an intact immune system. Its therapeutic effect is complex, and a variety of influences of raw food and its constituents on the immune system have been documented. Such effects include antibiotic, antiallergic, tumor-protective, immunomodulatory, and anti-inflammatory actions. In view of this, uncooked food can be seen as a useful adjunct to drugs in the treatment of allergic, rheumatic and infectious diseases.

17) Raw Food Eaters: Health Habits and Nutrient Intake(FULL TEXT), Poster for the 16th International Congress of Nutrition, 27.7-1.8.1997, Montreal, Canada

The participants are characterised by a higher health awareness, as is often observed in studies of persons following alternative dietary regimens. Considering that many fast and that the median nutrient energy intake is lower than recommended, it seems possible that some of the participants will be in a state of hunger metabolism. Since fruit is by far the major component of the RFDs, it is also often the primary nutrient source. This means that the intake of nutrients that are usually provided by cereal products and/or foods of animal origin such as vitamins B12 and D, and the minerals zinc and calcium is insufficient. On the other hand, the intake of certain protective nutrients, such as Vitamin C and other antioxidants, lie above the national average. The data show that an almost exclusive consumption of raw fruit and vegetables bear some advantages for nutrient intake but also may carry the threat of serious deficiencies. These findings need to be verified by analyses of nutrient status, a further aspect of this study which is currently under way.

18) Shifting from a conventional diet to an uncooked vegan diet reversibly alters fecal hydrolytic activities in humans., J Nutr 1992 Apr;122(4):924-30

We studied the effect on fecal hydrolytic activities of adopting an uncooked extreme vegan diet and readopting a conventional diet. Eighteen subjects were randomly divided into test and control groups. In the test group subjects adopted the uncooked extreme vegan diet for 1 mo and then resumed a conventional diet for a second month. Controls consumed a conventional diet throughout the study. Phenol and p-cresol concentrations in serum and daily output in urine and fecal enzyme activities were measured. The activity of fecal urease significantly decreased (by 66%) as did cholylglycine hydrolase (55%), beta-glucuronidase (33%) and beta-glucosidase (40%) within 1 wk of beginning the vegan diet. The new level remained throughout the period of consuming this diet. Phenol and p-cresol concentrations in serum and daily outputs in urine significantly declined. The fecal enzyme activities returned to normal values within 2 wk of resuming the conventional diet. Concentrations of phenol and p-cresol in serum and daily output in urine had returned to normal after 1 mo of consuming the conventional diet. No changes were observed in the control group during the study. Results suggest that this uncooked extreme vegan diet causes a decrease in bacterial enzymes and certain toxic products that have been implicated in colon cancer risk.

19) Survey of Food and Nutrient Intake of Hallelujah Vegetarians, Nutrition & Food Science 2001;31(6):293-303

Many times a diet that is lower in calories will result in widespread deficiencies, causing hunger and inability to stick to the diet. What this study reveals is that intakes of most vitamins and minerals are adequate while following The Hallelujah Diet. Only vitamins B12 and D were extremely low. Hallelujah Acres recommends a vitamin B12 supplement and sunshine, the natural source of vitamin D, to make up for these low intakes.

20) Uncooked, lactobacilli-rich, vegan food and rheumatoid arthritis., Br J Rheumatol 1998 Mar;37(3):274-81

We tested the effects of an uncooked vegan diet, rich in lactobacilli, in rheumatoid patients randomized into diet and control groups. The intervention group experienced subjective relief of rheumatic symptoms during intervention. A return to an omnivorous diet aggravated symptoms. Half of the patients experienced adverse effects (nausea, diarrhoea) during the diet and stopped the experiment prematurely. Indicators of rheumatic disease activity did not differ statistically between groups. The positive subjective effect experienced by the patients was not discernible in the more objective measures of disease activity (Health Assessment Questionnaire, duration of morning stiffness, pain at rest and pain on movement). However, a composite index showed a higher number of patients with 3-5 improved disease activity measures in the intervention group. Stepwise regression analysis associated a decrease in the disease activity (measured as change in the Disease Activity Score, DAS) with lactobacilli-rich and chlorophyll-rich drinks, increase in fibre intake, and no need for gold, methotrexate or steroid medication (R2=0.48, P=0.02). The results showed that an uncooked vegan diet, rich in lactobacilli, decreased subjective symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis. Large amounts of living lactobacilli consumed daily may also have positive effects on objective measures of rheumatoid arthritis.

21) Vegan diet alleviates fibromyalgia symptoms., Scand J Rheumatol 2000;29(5):308-13

The effect of a strict, low-salt, uncooked vegan diet rich in lactobacteria on symptoms in 18 fibromyalgia patients during and after a 3-month intervention period in an open, non-randomized controlled study was evaluated. As control 15 patients continued their omnivorous diet. The groups did not differ significantly from each other in the beginning of the study in any other parameters except in pain and urine sodium. The results revealed significant improvements in Visual analogue scale of pain (VAS) (p=0.005), joint stiffness (p=0.001), quality of sleep (p=0.0001), Health assessment questionnaire (HAQ) (p=0.031), General health questionnaire (GHQ) (p=0.021), and a rheumatologist's own questionnaire (p=0.038). The majority of patients were overweight to some extent at the beginning of the study and shifting to a vegan food caused a significant reduction in body mass index (BMI) (p=0.0001). Total serum cholesterol showed a statistically significant lowering (p=0.003). Urine sodium dropped to 1/3 of the beginning values (p=0.0001) indicating good diet compliance. It can be concluded that vegan diet had beneficial effects on fibromyalgia symptoms at least in the short run.

22) Vegan diet in physiological health promotion., Acta Physiol Hung 1999;86(3-4):171-80

We have performed a number of studies including dietary interventions and cross-sectional studies on subjects consuming uncooked vegan food called living food (LF) and clarified the changes in several parameters related to health risk factors. LF consists of germinated seeds, cereals, sprouts, vegetables, fruits, berries and nuts. Some items are fermented and contain a lot of lactobacilli. The diet is rich in fiber. It has very little sodium, and it contains no cholesterol. Food items like berries and wheat grass juice are rich in antioxidants such as carotenoids and flavonoids. The subjects eating living food show increased levels of carotenoids and vitamins C and E and lowered cholesterol concentration in their sera. Urinary excretion of sodium is only a fraction of the omnivorous controls. Also urinary output of phenol and p-cresol is lowered as are several fecal enzyme levels which are considered harmful. The rheumatoid arthritis patients eating the LF diet reported amelioration of their pain, swelling of joints and morning stiffness which all got worse after finishing LF diet. The composite indices of objective measures showed also improvement of the rheumatoid arthritis patients during the intervention. The fibromyalgic subjects eating LF lost weight compared to their omnivorous controls. The results on their joint stiffness and pain (visual analogue scale), on their quality of sleep, on health assessment questionnaire and on general health questionnaire all improved. It appears that the adoption of vegan diet exemplified by the living food leads to a lessening of several health risk factors to cardiovascular diseases and cancer. Rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet which was also seen in serum parameters and fecal analyses.

23) Vegetarian Raw Food Dietary Regimens: Health Habits and Nutrient Intake(FULL TEXT), Presented as Poster at the Third Internatiobnal Congress on Vegetarian Nutrition, Loma Linda, California USA, March 24-26 1997

The Raw Food Diet (RFD) is one of a number of alternative dietary regimens currently enjoying popularity. Though known under the above name, the movement consists of a wide variety of different RFD, most of which are vegetarian regimens. Common to all is the high proportion of raw food in the diet: extreme forms consist of a nutrition comprised solely of raw foods. The Giessen Raw Food Study aimed to examine the various RFD forms in Germany and to determine the health behavior and nutritive status of raw food eaters. Health habits were investigated by means of a detailed questionnaire. Data from this nationwide survey indicate that a quarter to a third of the participants are underweight according to their BMI. Extreme RFD are more often practiced by younger participants and by males. Most are highly content with their diet and almost 98% intend to follow their RFD as a long-term regimen. About half the participants gave an own disease as the reason for changing to a RFD. Women who adhere to the stricter forms stated that their menstruation became infrequent or stopped altogether. Food consumption and nutrient intake were calculated from a 7-day estimated food record. For most participants the consumption of raw food lay above 90%. The diet consists primarily of fruit and vegetables. The intake of nutrients that are usually provided by foods of animal origin is insufficient. These include Vitamins B12 and D, zinc and calcium. On the other hand, the intake of certain protective nutrients, such as Vitamin C and other antioxidants, lie above the national average.

24) Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked
vegan diet ("living food diet" is compromised., J Nutr 1995 Oct;125(10):2511-5

The present study examined the vitamin B-12 status in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet called the "living food diet." The study was comprised of two parts. In the cross-sectional part, the data on serum vitamin B-12 concentrations and dietary intakes in 21 (1 male, 20 females) long-term adherents (mean 5.2 y, range 0.7-14) of the "living food diet" were compared with those of 21 omnivorous controls matched for sex, age, social status and residence. In the longitudinal part of the study, food consumption data were collected and blood samples were taken from nine "living food eaters" (1 male, 8 females) on two occasions 2 y apart. The cross-sectional study revealed significantly (P < 0.001, paired t test) lower serum vitamin B-12 concentrations in the vegans (mean 193 pmol/L, range 35-408) compared with their matched omnivorous controls (311, 131-482). In the vegan group, total vitamin B-12 intake correlated significantly (r = 0.63, P < 0.01) with serum vitamin B-12 concentration. The vegans consuming Nori and/or Chlorella seaweeds (n = 16) had serum vitamin B-12 concentrations twice as high as those not using these seaweeds (n = 5) (mean 221 pmol/L, range 75-408, vs. 105, 35-252, P = 0.025). In the longitudinal study, six of nine vegans showed slow, but consistent deterioration of vitamin B-12 status over a 2-y observation period. On the basis of these results we conclude that some seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply adequate amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12.

Ummmm, 80-10-10 does not cause impotence.

Hey Brian,

Perhaps the Pottenger Cat Study might explain why these Gay Men said, "I agree...they probably were eating an incredibly unbalanced diet.....they followed something near the 80/10/10 raw diet, which if done right, by people with certain constitutions has shown some success, but with many others, is quite imbalanced, and the lack of essential fats can lead to those health issues....ie teeth, impotence."

In Dr. Max Gerson’s book “A Cancer Therapy - Results of Fifty Cases,” Gerson writes, “Dr. Pottenger’s experiments on cats showed that cats fed common food, without raw substances and raw milk, became nervous, sick, and even homosexual. Several weeks’ treatment with raw milk and raw vegetables returned them to normalcy!”

Last time I posted this everybody and their dog started screaming that I am HOMOPHOBIC, but I did not write this - GERSON did and these were the findings from the Pottenger Cat Study and NOT from me.

Jr
If u want , send me copies of all your research
Articles and documents and I will put a website together for you



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2012 10:47PM by fresh.

Why do the Raw Brahs get so much hate ?. Ive only watched a few of their videos but they seem like decent chill guys.

Much better role models than what many of our youth are exposed to today.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

John Rose, thanks for sharing. Ill read and respond more when Ive gotten some sleep. Id be highly suspect of any study showing that diet changed someones sexual orientation......

As for the *rawbrahs*...they are extremeley homophobic making both homophobic and cissexist jokes constantly, and clearly display discomfort with queerness (and studies do show the more homophobic the person, the more likely they actually are gay themselves!) Anyways..sleep now, respond more later.
Goodnight.
Namaste
-Love

I thought the Raw Brahs were gay, just didn't emphasize it--LOL! I guess I haven't watched enough of their vids. Although, you know what is said about homophobes . . .

Good luck in your debate, veganreikiangel. Myself, I would have pointed out at the start what you'd noticed yourself about this dude's defective reasoning--his saying there is no research about raw veganism, but there is research showing that it isn't curative--and left it at that.

Hey Gary,

Thanks, that’s quite magnanimous of you and I’d jump on your offer if I was not so concerned about the sequence in which this Knowledge needs to be presented. I’m convinced that when people hear too much too soon they tune out too quickly and I also agree with Nietzsche when he said, “He who has a strong enough why can bear almost any how.” It seems that I might be one of the few, if not the only one in the Raw Food Community who has figured out that we cannot start our Message out with Raw Food. I’ve been aware of this for some time as the 93 Minute Instructional Video I produced back in 1999 did not even go into Raw Food until the 17 minute mark. This is also why I do NOT promote myself within the Raw Food Community because I do NOT want to work with people who already know about this - I want to Wake Up the Planet!!

So once I come up with my approach, I would love to bounce some ideas off of you at that time if you still have the time to do so.

Once again, thanks for your offer - it really does mean a lot to me!

Peace and Love..........John

PS Speaking of Nietzsche, I remember a while back when I was watching this movie called When Nietzsche Wept and there was this conversation between Nietzsche and Dr. Breuer who was a close friend, mentor, and collaborator with Sigmund Freud and when I heard this conversation, I thought that’s exactly what I’m trying to do!

Dr. Joseph Breuer: “Your writing is short, brief sentences, but…” (FN interrupted)

Friedrich Nietzsche: “It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in the whole book.”

I added this PS just so some of y’all could have a good laugh because I know most of my Posts are long winded.

I understand and think your approach
Is good

I was just coming from the angle
Of

1. U being able to share links instead of long text

2. Having an organized place for all your
Info

Care to provide some evidence regarding the rawbrahs?

veganreikiangel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Rose, thanks for sharing. Ill read and
> respond more when Ive gotten some sleep. Id be
> highly suspect of any study showing that diet
> changed someones sexual orientation......
>
> As for the *rawbrahs*...they are extremeley
> homophobic making both homophobic and cissexist
> jokes constantly, and clearly display discomfort
> with queerness (and studies do show the more
> homophobic the person, the more likely they
> actually are gay themselves!) Anyways..sleep now,
> respond more later.
> Goodnight.
> Namaste
> -Love

Interesting thread - could the same faction that is the race-mongers also be the homophobe-mongers..

I saw that video of the Raw Bros in the shower, and don't consider them either homosexual or homophobic - they're brothers after all and guys - guys are like that, I think.

And what if they are? Why is it any of our business and why do we care? What does that say about us?

I'd like to write the rest of my comments on the Other Topics Board because I think it's more appropriate there --

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

veganreikiangel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> As for the *rawbrahs*...they are extremeley
> homophobic making both homophobic and cissexist
> jokes constantly, and clearly display discomfort
> with queerness (and studies do show the more
> homophobic the person, the more likely they
> actually are gay themselves!)


So let me get this straight, veganreikiangel - you and the dude from Eating Consciously are having a debate - but you both agree that the Raw Brahs are homophobic, and you also suspect them of being homosexuals.....

So that means the Raw Brahs can't win - either they're homophobic or they're homosexuals....

Just based on the fact that we have no information or facts that they are either one of those, I'm saying they're neither. But, hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good smear.

how did the Dr. Pottenger know the cats were homesexual .. did the cats convey that somehow .. cuz animals will mount each other in a display of agression and dominance that has nothing to do with being sexually attracted .. calling them homosexual for that seems like he is slapping a human attribute label on an animal ...

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Jodi,

I love the Price-Pottenger Foundation: A dentist's ideas about anthropology and a tuberculosis doctor's ideas about veterinary science!


KidRaw,

Not the point of veganreikiangel's post, you know, so why focus on that part?

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought the Raw Brahs were gay, just didn't
> emphasize it--LOL! I guess I haven't watched
> enough of their vids. Although, you know what is
> said about homophobes . . .


So, Tamukha, why are you 'focused on it', in the above post of yours?

Pot meet Kettle - you just 'focused on it' first before I did, yet when I focus on it, you're reprimanding me for doing so.

************

And as a matter of fact, if you look at my first Reply in this thread, you will see that I was responding to veganreikiangel's post in which he was definitely discussing the Raw Brahs' homophobic/homosexual - ness. I even Quoted Him at the beginning of my Reply so everyone would know what I was 'focusing on'.

Here is Veganreikiangel's post that I quoted in my Reply --

Re: Peer-Reviewed Studies?
Posted by: veganreikiangel ()
Date: September 30, 2012 05:48AM

As for the *rawbrahs*...they are extremeley homophobic making both homophobic and cissexist jokes constantly, and clearly display discomfort with queerness (and studies do show the more homophobic the person, the more likely they actually are gay themselves!)

And here is my post where I quote Veganreikiangel's focus on the Raw Brahs homo-ness so that everyone would know that is what I was Replying to (or focusing on, as you say) --

Re: Peer-Reviewed Studies?
Posted by: KidRaw ()
Date: September 30, 2012 07:46PM

veganreikiangel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> As for the *rawbrahs*...they are extremeley
> homophobic making both homophobic and cissexist
> jokes constantly, and clearly display discomfort
> with queerness (and studies do show the more
> homophobic the person, the more likely they
> actually are gay themselves!)


So let me get this straight, veganreikiangel - you and the dude from Eating Consciously are having a debate - but you both agree that the Raw Brahs are homophobic, and you also suspect them of being homosexuals.....

So that means the Raw Brahs can't win - either they're homophobic or they're homosexuals....

Just based on the fact that we have no information or facts that they are either one of those, I'm saying they're neither. But, hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a good smear.

****************

Tamukha, Why are you Trying to Control Me?

KidRaw,

Quote

Why are you Trying to Control Me?

Honestly, this made me laugh because things like this are hardly so important to me as to make me wish to control a poster over them. Were it my tendency, even, which it isn't!

The point of the post, which I actually addressed beneath my quip about the Raw Brahs, was asking about how to respond to someone that questions the lack of peer-reviewed studies about raw veganism.

You do not seemed to have addressed the point of the post because you instead chose to home in on that which you find most socially or morally objectionable in veganreikiangel's post.

I am rather used to this tactic, by now, and just feel it necessary to point out how counterproductive it is. Going off on an organic tangent, it ain't.

>Not the point of veganreikiangel's post, you know, so why focus on that part?

kidraw is referring to the above - you do tend to tell others what is appropriate to post/going "off topic, etc - you obviously do it because you care about this board and the tone and content, but it can be taken as controlling

the issue with the rawbrahs is that they made a very brief foray into raw, determined it didn't "work", then proceeded to make many ill informed conclusions and criticisms.

Fresh has summed up what i suspected, so because the rawbrahs now follow another diet it is an excuse for some to be nasty to them?.

The diet didn't work for them its that simple, whether they were doing it wrong or not is irrelevant, they couldn't make the diet work for them. Ive watched a few of their videos and it really did seem like the 3 of them gave 80/10/10 a good go.

I can never understand the elite level of dogma that often accompanies raw food.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 02:50PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh has summed up what i suspected, so because
> the rawbrahs now follow another diet it is an
> excuse for some to be nasty to them?.
>

No

> The diet didn't work for them its that simple,
> whether they were doing it wrong or not is
> irrelevant, they couldn't make the diet work for
> them. Ive watched a few of their videos and it
> really did seem like the 3 of them gave 80/10/10 a
> good go.
>

Nope

> I can never understand the elite level of dogma
> that often accompanies raw food.

Not dogma

The dogma/anger is a product of people not thriving on the diet. The physical numbers might be perfect according to mainstream medicine's interpretation of perfection, but the mental stuff isn't adding up for everyone. It does work for many, but not all. That's because raw is not a multi-purpose magic-bullet. No diet is. It might cure everyone's acne and constipation, but it won't cure everyone's anger issues, rampant ego, insecurity, lack of respect for other human beings, etc. Publicly throwing about unfounded and accusatory rants because someone doesn't eat what you eat is not indicative of total health. That's not to say that the person who does that can't get there someday, I know I've had my struggles, but they ain't there yet.

I do think that a lot of people become very disappointed when they look up to a guru and then that guru does an ideological 180 on them, thus threatening a major part of their belief system. People often feel betrayed and lash out when that happens. IMO, that's why it's best to be your own guru and simply see the pro gurus as cartoons or something similarly benign that's not to be taken seriously.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fresh has summed up what i suspected, so because
> the rawbrahs now follow another diet it is an
> excuse for some to be nasty to them?.
>
> The diet didn't work for them its that simple,
> whether they were doing it wrong or not is
> irrelevant, they couldn't make the diet work for
> them. Ive watched a few of their videos and it
> really did seem like the 3 of them gave 80/10/10 a
> good go.
>
> I can never understand the elite level of dogma
> that often accompanies raw food.

Ohh come on fresh sometimes its like wading in a sea of dogma on these forums.

Excuse after excuse for the reasons people fail on a raw diet and its always the individuals fault for doing the diet wrong, not sleeping 30 hours a day, consumed some fermented foods, ate spices and quinoa once a year etc etc. If a diet requires you to walk such a tightrope in order to not have your hair fall out etc then id say it wasn't as healthy as you might believe.

Ill rephrase what i said in which case how can some not accept that a raw diet doesn't work for everybody? That is being dogmatic.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 06:55PM by powerlifer.

Describe the physiologic differences that explain all these "failures"

Many people do it wrong
Many people cant handle the cleansing
Many people cant handle all the changes
Just because its not easy does not logically follow
That its flawed.

There are so many physiological differences thats the issue here, no one diet is catered to everyones needs.

Where are all the long term 100% raw people now?, the majority that were on the forum either now include cooked food or are including some animal foods in their diet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 07:28PM by powerlifer.

Name the documented difference that would cause
Some to thrive and others not.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Name the documented difference that would cause
> Some to thrive and others not.

Well clearly the majority fail because there aren't many if any true 100% raw fooders long term that i can find evidence of, one documented cause would include b12 deficiency and yes we will get the dogmatic response that b12 deficiency can also occur on a non raw diet.

The point that you will miss is that these problems are occuring to people following a raw diet long term. Now we can be dogmatic and blame the individual or we can try to see whats went wrong and why it occured.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2012 08:32PM by powerlifer.

Thanks for your response.

Its likely as I said that either people make errors
Or the cleansing and or addictions
Give the impression of diet problems

The evidence that it is viable is that some thrive
And that there are no critical phys diff.
But I understand that u dont see any long term

our view tends to mirror our experience

Not really about blaming, just that time and again
People "fail" and make many errors
and cleansing amplifies the difficulties

I dont see 100% as a requirement to say that it works
Or not
so I think many high raw veg people indicate
That its valid

I just cant put a lot of stock in the "i had to start eating meat and im ok now"
Because theres a lot more going on than that


it would help if just one person had a blood test
That might help to explain hair loss or other problems.
Otherwise we have nothing to go on

We can disagree...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2012 03:40AM by fresh.