My recent article, for raw vegans who like to read:

Is B12 deficiency an honorary raw vegan badge?




RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

I agree, supplementation is definitley necessary for B12 if you follow a vegan diet. Even then there is no guarentee that your body will use the B12 from the oral supplements. Sublingual are probably the best route for oral B12 supplementation.

I also think its bang out of order that some "gurus" suggest that as vegans we don't need to supplement and that we can get B12 from breathing in the air or playing with our pets etc. There is absolutely no evidence of this, not only that but there is no Vitamin B12 in the air. Doug Graham makes the assumption that because there is bacteria in the air, that there must also be Vitamin B12 which is not true.

Or that a few dirty veggies is all you need to get enough B12, using the wild animals theory, but the truth is wild animals eat insects, other animals faeces and even other animals which is where they maintain their vitamin B12 levels.

By the time vitamin B12 deficiency symptoms show up you can have caused permanent nervous system damage.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2012 01:36PM by powerlifer.

Confirmation of b12 problem must be by urinary MMA test.

blood test is insufficient.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2012 02:13PM by fresh.

this article with all the quotes must be candy for John Rose.

To b12 or no b12, that is the question.

[b12.com]

I added the following

Remark: Although MMA is considered by some to be the best test for diagnosing B12 deficiency, "reliance on one test alone courts frequent misdiagnosis" [86]. MMA test is "is not specific enough to provide a firm diagnosis"[88]. The diagnosis "on the basis of serum cbl level alone cannot be considered a reliable approach to investigating suspected vitamin deficiency." [87]

[86] Carmel R. Biomarkers of cobalamin (vitamin B-12) status in the epidemiologic setting: A critical overview of context, applications, and performance characteristics of cobalamin, methylmalonic acid, and holotranscobalamin II (2011) American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 94 (1)

[87] Willis C.D., Elshaug A.G., Milverton J.L., Watt A.M., Metz M.P., Hiller J.E.
Diagnostic performance of serum cobalamin tests: A systematic review and meta-analysis (2011) Pathology, 43 (5) , pp. 472-481.

[88] [labtestsonline.org]


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

There are simpler natural solutions: goat milk

I'm not a big believer in the accuracy of the standard blood tests, other than to give a bit of an idea if something is heading into deficiency. I recently had a blood test for the first time since I became 100% raw vegan 7 yrs ago. It showed that I was on the high end for both B12 & protein. I haven't done any consistent supplementation in terms of what is considered the right form such as Methylcobalamin. Though I have consumed a lot of algaes like chlorella, spirulina & other green superfoods/supplements. There seems to be many other raw vegans who've been on this diet even longer that haven't done much supplementation either and seem to be in perfect health. So it seems to be just like many health issues, where certain people need more or certain kinds of a nutrient than others. Though if one doesn't want to take a chance, I guess they should use supplements for assurance. I found this one company that sells a product with four forms of B12, which seems to be a great way to make sure you're getting plenty. Others swear by the B12 patch.

I should also mention that my mother has been anemic for yrs (probably over 30) and gets monthly B12 shots. But she also consumes very little that's healthy, is overweight & doesn't exercise. Luckily I seem to not be susceptible to ailments other relatives have. Just mentioning to give an idea of how different people can be just within the immediate family.

Simple Raw Recipes & Health Tips

B12 deficiency can take up to 10 years to show which is why many don't get ill initially because the liver can hold large stores of Vitamin B12.

Eventually it will catch up if you are not consuming a dietary source in my opinion.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

do you mean it can take 10 years to occur? because the person wouldn't have the deficiency for 10 years if they have the stores. so it's not like it's not showing; it's just not there in the form of deficiency yet.

From experience, as one who breathed lots of air, played with animals, did the algaes, seaweeds, etc., my B12 stores lasted about seven years... and then crumbled VERY QUICKLY over the course of a year.

I had blood work done when I was entering into my darkest days and it never showed any problems.

High-grade oral supplements offered a noticeable improvement, but alone were not enough to make me start feeling normal again. I'm also still not completely normal, but am well on my way again towards better.

Random and incapacitating panic attacks while trying to maintain a customer-service-oriented job to PAY MY RENT (no work = no rent!) was not a lot of fun. Nope.

Because I had been vegan for so long and felt nothing but THE BEST EVER, for years, in the beginning, I didn't think it could happen to me. But it did.

Maybe if I had been supplementing, it never would have happened. Who knows? I feel really stupid and humbled by the whole thing. It's horrifying to think the cardiac-arrest-panic-attack feelings I was having were likely a multitude of deficiencies working together in unholy synergy. Don't let your pride, or naive enthusiasm (which. can. last. years. if you judged based on your own positive experiences) keep you from taking every measure to really safeguard your health.

There's so much we don't know. We know enough about the conventional path, that it's a short, swift path to death... And while we're collectively learning about how to dig ourselves out, bear in mind, we are all still learning.

I want to get back to paradise just as quickly as anyone else. I don't want to cause any suffering. I certainly don't want to take any supplements, I think it's the epitome of stupid, being unable to nourish myself completely with food.

But all I did was end up causing myself a lot of suffering. It's a drag.

Interesting question to the long-term vegans (10+ years) who have made it there without any problems: DO you supplement B12? Have you supplemented?

I never supplemented. And I failed.

[3.bp.blogspot.com]

(Okay, I can laugh about it.)

On the positive side, I learned that I'm NOT immortal and tested my human limits. Now that I know them, I can respect them. Part of this includes never working overtime again.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> do you mean it can take 10 years to occur?
> because the person wouldn't have the deficiency
> for 10 years if they have the stores. so it's not
> like it's not showing; it's just not there in the
> form of deficiency yet.

Yeah what i meant was that it can often take up to 10 years(depending on the stores) for B12 deficiency to happen. Which is why many in the early years of being vegan might recommend to others that they don't/didn't need a B12 supplement but if no dietary source is being consumed it will catch up at some point.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

phantom, do you supplement now?


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree, supplementation is definitley necessary
> for B12 if you follow a vegan diet. Even then
> there is no guarentee that your body will use the
> B12 from the oral supplements. Sublingual are
> probably the best route for oral B12
> supplementation.
>
> I also think its bang out of order that some
> "gurus" suggest that as vegans we don't need to
> supplement and that we can get B12 from breathing
> in the air or playing with our pets etc. There is
> absolutely no evidence of this, not only that but
> there is no Vitamin B12 in the air. Doug Graham
> makes the assumption that because there is
> bacteria in the air, that there must also be
> Vitamin B12 which is not true.
>
> Or that a few dirty veggies is all you need to get
> enough B12, using the wild animals theory, but the
> truth is wild animals eat insects, other animals
> faeces and even other animals which is where they
> maintain their vitamin B12 levels.
>
> By the time vitamin B12 deficiency symptoms show
> up you can have caused permanent nervous system
> damage.


Hope you don't mind a little correcting and or debate on this subject.
1. All vegans do not need to suppliment with B-12? this is simply NOT true!

2. There is not proof that the liver assits the body when B-12 is low?

3. Nervous system damage is NOT permanent!

Of course not Rzman10001, these are merely just my 2 cents on the subject.

Ill counter by asking where a vegan would get their B12 if not by supplementing or consuming fortified foods. Algaes, sea vegetables and other B12 analogue containing foods are sketchy at best in regards to being a reliable source.

Once the B12 stores are used up where is the liver going to get adequate amounts of B12 from?

Maybe not but nervous system damage certainly isn't easy to reverse and nor should one have to be running into these kind of problems because their diets are missing a vital nutrient. Ive always questioned whether being vegan was natural.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2012 02:58PM by powerlifer.

"cardiac-arrest-panic-attack feelings"

I know too many people who have encountered that.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course not Rzman10001, these are merely just my
> 2 cents on the subject.
>
> Ill counter by asking where a vegan would get
> their B12 if not by supplementing or consuming
> fortified foods. Algaes, sea vegetables and other
> B12 analogue containing foods are sketchy at best
> in regards to being a reliable source.
>
> Once the B12 stores are used up where is the liver
> going to get adequate amounts of B12 from?
>
> Maybe not but nervous system damage certainly
> isn't easy to reverse and nor should one have to
> be running into these kind of problems because
> their diets are missing a vital nutrient. Ive
> always questioned whether being vegan was
> natural.
>
> [www.vegankingdom.co.uk]


I will address the most important issue here as I see it. If a person has nerve damage from a B-12 deficiency and corrects the problem then they can heal the damage with Electromagnetic Pulsed Field Therapy in 6mo. to a year. Or in 7yrs without, depending on the person. It is a terrible and serious injury that one can prevent and should be avoided at all cost. I just want these people to know that it can be healed.
As for the other replies I'll let you decide and believe what you want as I am sure you have read alot on the subject. I get my info from studies that are done on real people in controlled conditions and from personal experience actually healing my own nerve damage.

<<<Ive always questioned whether being vegan was natural.>>>

Hey powerlifer,

Have you ever read "The Ethics of Diet" by Howard Williams?

What would the symptoms of B12 deficiency induced nerve damage be?

This issue with B12 being able to last in the livers of some vegans for 10 to 20 years is an interesting phenomenon, not because it happens, but why does it work this way for some vegans, and others transitioning vegans run out of B12 as soon as they stop consuming it, and other non vegans who have plenty of B12 in the diet are not absorbing or getting enough B12?

The basic theory is that B12 deficiency causes pernicious anemia, plus a host of other symptoms including nerve damage. While there may be a correlation between low serum B12 and anemia, as well as a correlation between low serum B12 and nerve damage (or the other popular low B12 symptoms), this does not prove causation, in fact, low serum B12 might be a symptom of another causative factor other than lack of B12 in diet or lack of ability to absorb B12.

Where this theory of low B12 as causation runs into problems is that there are vegans who never need to supplement and never have problems, or there are some that can go 10 to 20 years without problems, and there are the folk that have problems even if they are getting sufficient dietary B12. Sometimes when a theory has holes, and the explanations of the holes start to get a bit far fetched, it might be better to question the original theory rather than speculating about the reasons for the various holes in the theory.

It is commonly understood that stress will cause the body to burn through vitamin C and the B vitamins, B12 being a B vitamin. It could be that for some reason a person is put under stress, the B12 gets consumed at a greater rate in the body, and then a host of other issues arise, both from the stress itself and perhaps some the issues arises solely from the low serum B12. I know from my own experience transitioning to a raw diet, that my body became more sensitive to stress as my body began to shed the excess weight and fat, and I had to learn new techniques to deal with my stress than the ones I had used in the past, which in my SAD days would have been eating a small pizza and having a few beers.

The other issue I have with lack of dietary B12 causing a host of issues is that there are many large herbivores in nature that don't eat meat or animal products, and might eat a few insects by accident (and I do that too) who never get B12 deficiency. On the other hand, most of those large herbivores are not under the same kind of stress that a typical person who lives in a big city or in a modern industrial society is under. In all cases, B12 originates and is synthesized by bacteria, and these bacteria are ubiquitous, and the B12 that is found in an animal products ultimately came from bacteria. These bacteria live in our mucus membranes and in our digestive system, and live in the soil that grow our foods. Any time there is decomposition of plant matter, bacteria are involved, and there is a good chance that these bacteria are creating B12 as they proliferate. For people who have their own gardens, if you are not sure about the ability of your soil to create B12, you might want to use some Effective Microorganisms to inoculate your soil as well as adding fresh compost to the soil.

Anyway, this is just food for thought.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2012 12:30AM by Prana.

If you grow your own vegetables, you could add a powder called Azomite. Cobalt is needed to make b12.

I have the hunch feeling that even two perfectly identical twins would not be able to get the same b12 at identical conditions of food and diet. People would look into numbers, etc. But there is a lot more that I don't understand. I know it is there.

Another aspect is that our G.I. tracts are devolving, and we are loosing the little pouch that supposedly stores B-12 bacteria efficiently. This is a theory of Brian Clement after looking at G.I. tracts of people 300 years ago.
[www.aliveraw.com]

I forget who proffered the "sanitation hypothesis". But the basic point was the same as many other ideas about throwing out the good bacteria with the bad. I remember reading Keith Akers book back in 1983 on vegetarianism where he quoted a study showing UK vegans suffered from b-12 deficiency where Iranian vegans as a group did not. It's speculation to assume what the difference is. But the sanitation hypothesis is basically that we get sick from too much cleaning, too much santizing, too much sterility in the environment.

In short, we need to manage pathogens rather than eliminate them. We allow some bad bacteria to exist along side good bacteria and strengthen our immune system rather than throw bleach everywhere and eat twinkies. A bit of an oversimplication. But an interesting idea. I won't say I buy it 100 percent. But when you look at the resistance problems we have with antibiotics, to me the sanitation hypothesis is looking better and better.

What does all of this have to do with b-12? sorry for the tangent. Maybe part of the sanitation hypothesis is that we'd be at lower risk of b-12 deficiency in a less sterile environment. But then I think several of you have already said that in different ways.

Paul

Here is another link to the same page with the illustration of the little pouch Brian Clement spoke about. Just a theory but I think it is pretty clear what causes these issues with all the pesticides, poor diets and such.
[www.aliveraw.com]

thanks for the insights everyone
I appreciate this



RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Every time I listen to Brian lecture I am inspired, it does'nt seem everyone else gets it?

what is a good supplement brand of b-12
someone in another thread ( not sure which one)
mentioned they take a b-12 that has 4 different types of B-12
so they can't go wrong
which brand is that?
is it good?
dosage?

also, can u overdo -b-12

>Every time I listen to Brian lecture I am inspired, it does'nt seem everyone else gets it?

i prefer accuracy over inspiration.

i just watched the video by clement above
and he stated that

"everyone is required to CONSUME b12 on a daily basis"

not even close to being true


reverdoing b12-
typically excess is eliminated as it is water soluble
so normally not a concern

When I started taking b12 I felt a lot more energetic. With time, I don't get the effect. To me, this means that I have been "recharged." I started taking this every week:

[www.amazon.com]

[www.amazon.com]

and now I take this twice a week:

[www.amazon.com]

to me, the 1000 mcg skin patch had a stronger effect than the 5000 mcg skin patch. But I have a friend who also bought the two and the 5000 mcg had a stronger effect on him (he is larger).