<<<What makes me laugh the most about this theory that we were designed to eat raw, is that there wouldn't be anywhere near enough plant foods to sustain a raw vegan population by a long shot, this especially if before the introduction of agriculture. That completely squashes this theory for me, if we didn't have enough food to survive, we wouldn't be here today.>>>

First of all, it’s NOT a theory that we ARE designed to EAT RAW - it’s a FACT!!!

Secondly, 100 Raw Foodists can live on the same amount of land and water as does one who eats like you!!!

“As we look at global food needs, it is clear that compared to meat-eating, switching to grains would meet our worldwide food problems. You can fed forty times more people on grains before the grains are eaten by livestock than once they have been converted to meat. Grain consumption is certainly better for the world and personal health than eating animals and dairy. However, eating grains does not take us to the highest octave of health that we can achieve.” -Gabriel Cousens, M.D. “Rainbow Green Live-Food Cuisine” pp. 19-20

“From an ecological point of view, grain consumption is significantly better than consuming livestock, but when compared to fruit orchards and vegetable growth we see that almost 250% more people can be fed with an acre of orchard than with an acre of grain. So even though it is an improvement, it is not the most beneficial path. It is really the same with health: from the vegetarian and vegan point of view, clearly grains are a more healthy food than flesh and dairy. But compared to live, raw vegetables and a little bit of fruits, nuts, and seeds, grains are a poor second choice. Not only are most grains stored, which is why we have the mycotoxin problem, but once the grains are harvested and milled, they lose a significant amount of their nutritive value. There is no such thing as “fresh bread.” Most flour may be years old before it is used. Not only am I concerned about the mold and fungus in storage, but infestation of insects and rodents. The freshest foods are, of course, vegetables, nuts, fruits, and seeds that are picked directly from the garden.” -Gabriel Cousens, M.D. “Rainbow Green Live-Food Cuisine” pp. 22-23

<<<The raw vegan diet is a new age experimental diet trialled mostly by those living in western or advanced countries.>>>

Here are some various quotes from various people from my “RAW FOODS VS COOKED FOODS & MORE - THE BEST OF FILE”:

How many have succeeded on the all raw diet, you ask. Consider this: All of your ancestors did, for over 2 million years, or you would not be here to ask.

The fact remains that all creatures on this planet have been successfully eating raw for over 600,000,000 years, and that is good enough evidence for me.

ALL species of life evolved on a totally raw diet, a fact that can not be denied. Ignored, when convenient; but not denied. Large numbers of humans living on a raw, plant-based diet would leave NO lingering evidence of their existence, as the tool-using groups did. Again, trying to extrapolate from cultural perversion to natural systems is absolutely impossible.

All raw is not necessarily a philosophy or dogma, it is the natural way that all creatures other than (most) humans eat, and there is no reason that we should be excepted from this, given sufficient available raw food. We do not "require" cooked food. I can just as easily say that I don't subscribe to cooked food dogma.

Eating raw foods has a six hundred million year historical track record of success. We know it works because it has worked for that long. We are not sure about the cooked food experiment, it has only been going on for a little more than ten thousand years, and then, only sporadically until very recently. All the indicators point to the fact that although cooked food tastes good (BTW, so does raw food) it provides limited nutrition, is economically wasteful, tough on the environment, tends to lead to overeating and other eating disorders, and generally leaves little to recommend it.

Raw fooders have been around for 10 million years. That's pretty good endurance, I'd say. The sprint of cooked foods, not even a 10 thousand year experiment, is fizzling into failure. It represents less than 1/10 of 1% of our time on this earth.

Most people are not vegetarian, therefore most long lived people are also not vegetarian. This is simple math. It has been my experience that vegetarians and vegans do live longer, and I believe raw fooders will too. This is difficult to study, as there are very few lifetime vegans or raw fooders to study. The formative years, from 0 to 20, carry the biggest impact on our final years, and very few of us ate well during that period of our lives.

Darwin said that humans are frugivores, and numerous obvious anatomical features support this idea. So, modern biology classifies us, essentially as a form of great ape. Why has the so called scientific establishment not applied this fundamental discovery to the field of human diet? Is the fallout from Darwinism still too controversial for the power structure?

I've accepted that a huge percentage of people are just not ready to hear this message. I realize that most people are in love with cooked food, so they don't want to know the truth about raw foods. Let's face it, most people don't want anyone to rain on their parade and they would prefer to stay in denial.

There's two kinds of skeptics in the world - honest skeptics - those who are genuinely interested in knowing the truth and stay cautious until they are clear about what is true.

Then there are dishonest skeptics. They are not interested in the truth. They are spoilers. They just like to destroy for the fun of it. They are not worth giving the time of day to. If you don't feed the stray dogs, they go somewhere else.

You Chris are a Dishonest Skeptic!!!

Peace and Love..........John

to say that I was born to eat cooked food (altered food) is the same as to say I was born to drink Pepsy. Pure BS Pepsy is there and I wont die if I drink it, but I have better choices. Pepsy is a man made product. Cooked food is a man made product. Yes, Pepsy can save me from dehydration if that is all I can drink. now ask yourself the question, were you born to drink Pepsy?

Pepsy = product = cooked food = product

Lol John, no what i am interested in doing is teaching people the ability to critically think for themselves, so that they can see both sides of the coin. Many people here are not educated on the basics of diet and often take the word of these so called gurus and authors, without researching for themselves. This is why many get hurt following a raw diet.

You keep stating that we were designed to eat a raw diet as a FACT and TRUTH, yet have no proof what so ever to back up your claims and only very weak logic at best.

Banding about words such as Truth when it comes to diet makes you sound like a fanatic. With how fanatic you often are in reply to my posts John makes me think you are scared of an honest and open discussion on nutrition. Im entitled to my view as much as you are.

[www.natuhealth.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 01:39PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many people here are not educated on the
> basics of diet and often take the word of these so
> called gurus and authors, without researching for
> themselves. This is why many get hurt following a
> raw diet.

Actually, people come here to get away from a cooked diet. They are not dummies and think for themselves. So I would reverse the question and ask how many people die from a cooked diet and how many die from a raw diet. I'll give you a tip. Look in hospitals for cancer, heart problems, etc. Are you a guru of the cooked diet? If so, why don't you save the people in the hospitals. Surely that's where the need is at.

Im not a guru of anything.

I simply eat to live, rather than live to eat as in your case Panchito. I do not support my diet as if it were a football team or put labels on myself when it comes to diet, its just tacky. Its just food to me these days, fuel.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Many people here are not educated on the
> > basics of diet and often take the word of these
> so
> > called gurus and authors, without researching
> for
> > themselves. This is why many get hurt following
> a
> > raw diet.
>
> Actually, people come here to get away from a
> cooked diet. They are not dummies and think for
> themselves. So I would reverse the question and
> ask how many people die from a cooked diet and how
> many die from a raw diet. I'll give you a tip.
> Look in hospitals for cancer, heart problems, etc.
> Are you a guru of the cooked diet? If so, why
> don't you save the people in the hospitals. Surely
> that's where the need is at.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 01:58PM by powerlifer.

oh thats well and dandy. But why would you put fear on others peoples minds about dangers of the raw diet? Why don't you instead spread fears about the dangers of the cooked diet? you would hit the dartboard more offen that way.

Chris, you remind me a lot of Tom Billings who was also a very sick individual and since he failed at Raw Food, he was hell bent on blaming the diet instead himself. You act like you care and you are here to give “both sides of the coin” and yet, it is you who Condemn without Investigation. If you really cared like you pretend to do, you would read about Biophotons so you would understand that your Drug of Choice has turned this Planet into Hell and you would read the “Ethics of Diet” so that you would know that Vegetarianism is Not a fad, but NO, you are a DISHONEST SKEPTIC!!!

Unlike you, I study both sides of the coin and it is you who try to justify what you do. I only care about the health of those people who are suffering and if there was any proof whatsoever that people needed to eat Cooked Food, I would promote Cooked Food. But all of the proof is for the Food every Living System on this Planet is designed to Eat, including us.

Indeed, you are a very sick puppy Chris. Why do you come to a Website that promotes Raw Food when you don’t live this way and don’t encourage others to live this way, which is the PURPOSE of this website? You can’t say that it’s because you care about people and you want to give “both sides of the coin” because you don’t know “both sides of the coin” and you don’t want to know!

Once again, it’s obvious that you don’t care about people because if you really cared, you would read up about Biophotons and try to Prove Raw Food is healthy instead of trying to justify why it’s OK to Eat Dead Burnt Bodies. Indeed, you are a lot like an atheist who goes to a Religious Website just to make others as unhappy as you.

No, Raw Food is NOT a Religion, but Raw Food is definitely the Salvation for our Species!!!

Peace and Love..........John

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh thats well and dandy. But why would you put
> fear on others peoples minds about dangers of the
> raw diet? Why don't you instead spread fears about
> the dangers of the cooked diet? you would hit the
> dartboard more offen that way.

You sound like John who again doesn't want a balanced view or to simply sweep the problems that a raw diet causes under the mat. This is a common trait it seems in the raw community. I educate others about the dangers of a raw diet because my basic knowledge of nutrition now allows me too. I have been around the raw movement and seen the sheer number of people get ill because of the result of following this diet.

Also you fail to remember that i myself followed a raw diet which is why i came here in the first place, long before you were ever on the forum might i add. Like i said above i am allowed my view and i don't think a raw diet is healthy, nutritionally compete or what id consider balanced nutrition.

Lol John you really are something, numerous people are so sick of your behavior on this forum. Goodbye. Ive asked Prana for a ban, so that im not tempted to come back again.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 02:27PM by powerlifer.

PL. I don't mean to sound like an enemy to you. You help many people with good advice about isolated themes of nutrition. But you have also been waiting for the first oportunity to jump and attack all raw diets inn general. That's what I've seen and I may be mistaken. As I understood, you have discovered many of the problems of your body *AFTER* you returned to a cooked diet, yet you acuse the raw diet instead of the supposed gland problems. If the problems were the glands, genetics, etc, why is the problem the raw diet? Hope I don't sound like I am trying to attack you.

Contradict your views on diet maybe but i never attack anyone unlike the behavior i often put up with on here, if you take my contrary view as a direct attack on your person then that is your issue not mine im afraid.

I always discuss my points in a polite and respectful manner, even when often pushed to the limit by some like above.

I eat both cooked and raw foods as you fine well know. Again like i say stop looking at nutrition in a similar way to supporting a football team. Its just food, i eat lots of plant foods. There's no sides, there should be no competitive element implied with diet.

Actually i done most of my healing on a cooked diet for what its worth. Lots of plant foods though, but other foods to balance.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PL. I don't mean to sound like an enemy to you.
> You help many people with good advice about
> isolated themes of nutrition. But you have also
> been waiting for the first oportunity to jump and
> attack all raw diets inn general. That's what I've
> seen and I may be mistaken. As I understood, you
> have discovered many of the problems of your body
> *AFTER* you returned to a cooked diet, yet you
> acuse the raw diet instead of the supposed gland
> problems. If the problems were the glands,
> genetics, etc, why is the problem the raw diet?
> Hope I don't sound like I am trying to attack you.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 02:48PM by powerlifer.

Chris,

Why do you come to a Website that promotes Raw Vegan Food when you don’t live this way and don’t encourage others to live this way, which is the PURPOSE of this website?

You can’t say that it’s because you care about people because if you really cared about people, you would read about Biophotons so you would understand the True Dangers of Cooked Food and you would read the “Ethics of Diet” so that you would know that Vegetarianism is Not a fad.

This is a Raw Vegan Website, so why are you here?

You are NOT here to help people - you are here because you are SICK!!!

Something is seriously wrong you Chris and you are in Denial!!!

Ok. that does not explain the timing question but thas ok. We all see what we want, if we want a raw diet then we find good things about it. If we eat cooked food then thats fine. Many times some cooked foods are necessary. Better have food than nothing at all. I would say to try to get rid of personal vendettas with forgiveness as they also hurt the person holding them. We all have this predisposition to defend what we say but sometimes it may not be worthy or it drags for too long tiring us.

As ive told you and others like Utopian who have asked this question before 100 times. I came to this site years ago when i thought a raw vegan diet was a healthy thing to do. I also have a passion for phyto-nutrition, just not dogmatic strict raw diets like you promote and gallons of jucing.

Im still here years later and my opinion on nutrition has evolved since i have learned more.

Cry babies like yourself are the only sick individuals here who suppress a balanced and honest view on nutrition. You really are not mature enough to have a conversation with in general.

Good bye this is the last ill speak with you. Ive asked for a ban like i say, so you no longer need to worry about people debunking your weak theories.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chris,
>
> Why do you come to a Website that promotes Raw
> Vegan Food when you don’t live this way and
> don’t encourage others to live this way, which
> is the PURPOSE of this website?
>
> You can’t say that it’s because you care about
> people because if you really cared about people,
> you would read about Biophotons so you would
> understand the True Dangers of Cooked Food and you
> would read the “Ethics of Diet” so that you
> would know that Vegetarianism is Not a fad.
>
> This is a Raw Vegan Website, so why are you here?
>
> You are NOT here to help people - you are here
> because you are SICK!!!
>
> Something is seriously wrong you Chris and you are
> in Denial!!!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2013 03:07PM by powerlifer.

<<< i don't think a raw diet is healthy, nutritionally compete or what id consider balanced nutrition.>>>

Chris,

As soon as I read this, I did something I’ve never done before and I reported it to Bryan. I didn’t even finish reading your post because I’m getting tired of seeing your Ignorance harm other people. Not only do you remind me of Tom Billings, but you also remind me of Victor Herbert and Stephen Barrett. All 3 of these guys are just like you - all of y’all are so SICK that you do NOT understand all of the EVIL that you do.

So stop acting like you’re here to help other people because this is all about you. If you were really interested in helping people, you would have done research on Biophotons and would realize the harm caused by Cooking our Food.

Have you researched Biophotons?

No, because you are only concerned about rationalizing your rapacity. You don’t believe in a Raw Food Lifestyle and only a SICK person would spend as much time as you do on a Website where you know you’re pushing people’s buttons and then, to turn around and act like you’re surprised people take issue with you.

And then, when you make a False Statement like “there wouldn't be anywhere near enough plant foods to sustain a raw vegan population” and use that as an argument against our Way of Life and then are shown that 100 Raw Fooders use the same amount of water and land as you do, you don’t even acknowledge your Mistake and it apparently doesn’t even phase your Belief System.

Once again, there is something seriously wrong you Chris. You’re not here to help anyone, otherwise, you would have read up on Biophotons and you would see the error in your Belief System. The only reason why more people don’t complain about you is because you keep telling a lot of people exactly what they want to hear, just like Allopathic Doctors.

"No man is clever enough to know all the evil he does." -Francois De La Rochefoucauld: Maxims 1665

powerlifer, I don't have anything against you but I have to agree with John Rose in some respects.
You're not a raw fooder so get your ass off the site and find something else to do with your time. You're british, right? Go watch Englang play New Zealand in cricket. Game should be starting soon.

My heart hurts.

Mindy

As far as i am aware, this is a raw vegan site, not an exclusively 100% raw vegan site -at least that was how it was in the past. Unless Prana states otherwise, or states that any mention of cooked food is forbidden, then people wanting to eat a 100% raw or mainly raw vegan diet are still welcome here.

Just because a diet is 100% raw vegan doesn't make it a healthy diet. The simplest and easiest 100% raw diet is a 100% fruit diet, and even someone as respected and knowledgeable as Doug Graham says a 100% raw fruit diet is deadly and dangerous. The ultimate 100% perfect raw diet deadly and dangerous long term!!!

Mindy, this has been going on for years on this board, but it's much more civilised now so don't take it too seriously.

I very much enjoy reading opinions/thoughts from both John R., Prana, and others as well as from Chris.

Until this forum becomes a cult, I'd think that all opinions are welcomed as long as one stays within the forum rules. Doesn't mean you have to accept or agree with them.

I do think it's nice to understand why a person believes the way that she/he does. Asking them questions and getting answers if very helpful.

Ultimately, I, as a newbie (or anyone, for that matter), am responsible for my own health and the only way that any one person could lead me astray is if I am counting on them, alone, as "the one" who knows all. When I hear "both" sides it inspires me to check further into things.

I appreciate hearing from ALL of you.

Mindy

It's totally natural that people will disagree on topics, even if both people are raw vegan. I love the wide variances of backgrounds that people bring to this forum. But I would like to remind each of us that while we may disagree with one another, there is no reason to offer insults to one another, like saying a person is evil or sick (meaning probably mentally ill in this case). Make your case against the arguments rather than the person.

I would also like to limit the amount of debate we all engage in. This forum is for supporting people in their raw journeys or their explorations of their health, and debating like this can raise a lot of bad feelings and anger towards one another. Creating these bad feeling then makes it so people don't want to participate.

So lets see if we can refrain from ad hominem arguments, that is, criticizing the person rather than the argument. And remember that there will always be people that you can't ever come to an agreement, so don't feel that you have to agree, let it be OK that the disagreement exists.

Instead, focus on clarifying the health issues you feel are important so that others might benefit if you find mis-truths or fallacies coming from someone's posts or their point of view. And let people decide for themselves.

Well said Prana and Amen!

Mindy

I totally agree about the bad feelings. I don't know anybody who likes that. Some people are more gloomy, etc. Others are stuck in to the same adversary drum roll and always want the last word. Eventually people get used to everything as they form habit. I would like to be more positive as I see that as a choice. There is always drama going on if you want to look for it. I also get tired if I engaged in 'rivalry' topics (cooked versus raw). Why would I go to Sally Fallon forum and preach my views to them bby repeating that I am trying to save them in the name of reason? Hey, stay cool my friends.

I've no doubt that each here comes from a place of genuinely believing in what he or she says or argues. We're all at completely different places in our journeys.

Have grace! I say that to myself also as I often get very aggravated and just in awe of how my husband just doesn't "get it" or "see it" when the wisdom is just right there for the taking. It is very difficult to keep my mouth shut at times. I am still "under construction". ha ha.

When we just know that we are "right" it is hard to understand how others just can't see it or won't see it. But, that is ok. I was once one of the "non-see ers" too. Am glad that little by little my eyes are being opened.

I, personally, think that it is ok to argue a point. However, when it gets to below the belt blows or personal attack kind of stuff, that junk causes hurt and pain and is nonconstructive. Not to mention that if you are genuinely wanting the other person to see your point, you really are losing that battle by behaving this way. You are only pushing that person further away.

That's my take.

Forcing ones opinion (even if you feel certain that you correct) will never win anyone over.

Again, that's just my take.

Mindy

Hi Mindy,

No offense, but you are very naïve. The Truth has Enemies and our Raw Vegan Message is an idea whose stronger than all of the armies in the world and THREATENS those who Rule the World.

Check out this article on “I Was a Paid Internet Shill” - [consciouslifenews.com]

Peace and Love..........John

"The Truth" ?? Not sure I know what you mean when you say this. What do you mean?

What are saying I am naive about? Not sure I know.

I am not as naive as you may think. I know about Monsanto, U.S. gov't agencies, etc. if, in fact, those and others like them are who you are referring to as enemies.

Maybe you are referring to other people. You say those who "Rule the World". Who ARE you referring to exactly? I am not being sassy, I am seriously curious.

I just believe that having great passion is really good, but when you start judging others when, perhaps, you have not been in their exact shoes is not going to win anyone over.

It you don't have proof that Chris is a paid shill then why make the charge? If you do have proof, then provide to the admins and I am sure he will be ousted.

I think we all (including me) have to be careful in presuming to know one's heart. Unless you are God, you do not have such power.

I don't think anyone has ever been won over by badgering.

Perhaps you have always been a raw vegan, but for many of us we were once SAD eaters (or somewhere in between) and each here have had our own journey to raw eating. If someone had tried to push me when my heart was not yet ready, the words would have fallen on deaf ears and depending on the approach could have caused pain and hurt.

John, I love your passion. In some ways you remind me of myself even. Just wish that your approach was more peace giving, I guess.

All ya need is love, love....love is all ya need.

Mindy

Hi Mindy,

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify some of these points.

You asked me, “What are saying I am naive about?”

I said that you were naïve because in the post I responded to, you said, “I've no doubt that each here comes from a place of genuinely believing in what he or she says or argues.” And then, I said, “Check out this article on “I Was a Paid Internet Shill” - [consciouslifenews.com] ”

In other words, NOT everyone who comes here is genuine and there are a lot of Internet Shills who are paid to come here to attack our leaders and create disharmony. It’s the old Divide & Conquer Strategy that Psychopaths use to keep the rest of us their SLAVES!!!

<<<You say those who "Rule the World". Who ARE you referring to exactly? I am not being sassy, I am seriously curious.>>>

Yes, “Monsanto and U.S. gov't agencies” are part of the problem as you pointed out, but they only represent the minions. If you watch the Thrive Documentary, Foster Gamble points out that the same small group of families are behind every Major Sector of Human Endeavor. These are the Psychopaths who are Ruling the World.

<<<It you don't have proof that Chris is a paid shill then why make the charge?>>>

I never called Chris an Internet Shill, but I did say that he’s beginning to make me think that he might even be an Internet Shill and I said that based on over a dozen Conversations I’ve had with him. Once again, I asked you to check on that article on Internet Shills because you said, “I've no doubt that each here comes from a place of genuinely believing in what he or she says or argues.” and once again, it would naïve to think that our Message is Not an idea whose time has come and can defeat all of the armies in the world.

By the way, if you had to hire an Internet Shill, would you know whether or not they were doing their job?

<<<I just believe that having great passion is really good, but when you start judging others when, perhaps, you have not been in their exact shoes is not going to win anyone over.>>>

Once again, I never called Chris an Internet Shill - I only said and I’ll quote exactly what I said, “you’re beginning to make me think that you might even be an Internet Shill.”

And then, as far as winning him over, did you read the first discussion between Chris and me?

How about the 2nd discussion, did you read it?

How about the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th, the 6th, the 7th, the 8th, the 9th, etc., etc.?

How many times have I tried to have an intelligent discussion with Chris?

How many times has Chris said “A” and I came back and explained how “A” is Wrong?

How many times has Chris said “B” and I came back and explained how “B” is Wrong?

How many times has Chis addressed any of my points and then, keeps repeating the same False Hoods?

Did you notice how I even Numbered my Points in a Post in this Thread and Chris did NOT address any of them and they were the same Points I’ve been making ever since we started have these discussions?

Have you ever noticed that I’ve even given Chris the benefit of the doubt by quoting Francois De La Rochefoucauld, "No man is clever enough to know all the evil he does."?

Have you ever seen Victor Herbert or Stephen Barrett in action?

Have you ever coached someone and then, see them several months later going back to their Bad Habits because they found a website or a friend that told them what they wanted to hear?

<<<John, I love your passion. In some ways you remind me of myself even. Just wish that your approach was more peace giving, I guess.>>>

Yes, I am passionate and I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - I don’t care what anyone says about me, but when it comes to defending the Truth that will put an end to the needless suffering on this Planet, I will stand up for the Truth and defend it to the end.

As far as my approach, I never come out aggressively with anyone. I know the harder anyone pushes the harder they resist. However, it doesn’t take me too long to wake up and figure what’s going on and even then, I don’t become more aggressive when I find my approach isn’t working. But when people ignore every opportunity to learn and grow and then, hide behind the false impression that they’re helping people when I know they’re harming them, I’m going to call them on it.

Indeed, there’s nothing more that I enjoy than a healthy debate, but Chris NEVER addresses any of my Points and just keeps preaching his limited perspective. Sure, some might say the same thing about me, but I’ve been analyzing everyone I can find who gets results for almost 23 years. I’ve done a Comparative Analysis on all of those Great Healers and I believe my Version - the Science and Art of Healing - is better than everyone else’s. I’ve explained my Version to Chris more times than I can remember and NOT once has he addressed my Version. NOT ONCE!!! I would love Chris to say, John, this is where I don’t agree with what you say so we could discuss it. But Chris has NEVER done this!!!

So if Chris was truly genuine and sincere about helping people, he would have read up on Biophotons and he would engage me in discussion to show me my FLAWS. For these reasons, Chris seems disingenuous to say the least.

Once again, thanks for giving an opportunity to clarify some of these points.

Peace and Love..........John

I really wish people would edit their posts before pressing SEND. Threads should not inevitably escalate to insulting other posters directly.

[sigh]