definition of ketosis: [en.wikipedia.org]

"Ketone bodies are acidic, but acid-base homeostasis in the blood is normally maintained through bicarbonate buffering, respiratory compensation to vary the amount of CO2 in the bloodstream, hydrogen ion absorption by tissue proteins and bone, and renal compensation through increased excretion of dihydrogen phosphate and ammonium ions.[4] Prolonged excess of ketone bodies can overwhelm normal compensatory mechanisms, leading to acidosis if blood pH falls below 7.35."


dangers of ketonic diets (high fat diets)

[en.wikipedia.org]

" Supplements are necessary to counter the dietary deficiency of many micronutrients.[4]

Long-term use of the ketogenic diet in children increases the risk of retarded growth, bone fractures and kidney stones.[4] The diet reduces levels of insulin-like growth factor 1, which is important for childhood growth. Like many anticonvulsant drugs, the ketogenic diet has an adverse effect on bone health. Many factors may be involved such as acidosis and suppressed growth hormone.[36] About 1 in 20 children on the ketogenic diet will develop kidney stones (compared with one in several thousand for the general population). A class of anticonvulsants known as carbonic anhydrase inhibitors (topiramate, zonisamide) are known to increase the risk of kidney stones, but the combination of these anticonvulsants and the ketogenic diet does not appear to elevate the risk above that of the diet alone.[37] The stones are treatable and do not justify discontinuation of the diet.[37] Johns Hopkins Hospital now gives oral potassium citrate supplements to all ketogenic diet patients, resulting in a sevenfold decrease in the incidence of kidney stones.[38] However, this empiric usage has not been tested in a prospective controlled trial.[8] Kidney stone formation (nephrolithiasis) is associated with the diet for four reasons:[37]

Excess calcium in the urine (hypercalciuria) occurs due to increased bone demineralisation with acidosis. Bones are mainly composed of calcium phosphate. The phosphate reacts with the acid, and the calcium is excreted by the kidneys.[37]
Hypocitraturia: the urine has an abnormally low concentration of citrate, which normally helps to dissolve free calcium.[37]
The urine has a low pH, which stops uric acid from dissolving, leading to crystals that act as a nidus for calcium stone formation.[37]
Many institutions traditionally restricted the water intake of patients on the diet to 80% of normal daily needs;[37] this practice is no longer encouraged.[4]

In adults, common side effects include weight loss, constipation, raised cholesterol levels and, in women, menstrual irregularities including amenorrhoea.[39]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2013 10:04PM by Panchito.

Panchito, I think you should elaborate on why you are posting this. Are you talking mainly of Atkins or a paleo diet? Because I am wondering if you feel this would occur if a person ate a high-fat RAW VEGAN diet...

hmmm...Atkins. Ketogenic diets are used to treat some disorders (epilepsy-nerves) and they have the right place and context. But it is good to be informed of their potential dangers. As long as you eat some carbs as part of your diet, you don't need to worry. If not, drink more alkaline water. But read on it and create your own opinion (best).

Well, this helps me out some. I told you I was in ketosis for a long time. Maybe the effects are catching up with me.

I still hope I can reverse and save my life. At this point, I am scared and I am not sure if I can do it. I need to believe I can.

And.. I actually never did hi fat, I just did alot of protein. Still not a good thing though

Quote

And.. I actually never did hi fat, I just did alot of protein. Still not a good thing though

That's a lot worse then a high fat diet, actually.

I notice a lot of people who want to lose weight talk about ketosis like it's a miraculous thing.

Living Food Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And.. I actually never did hi fat, I just did alot
> of protein. Still not a good thing though
>
> That's a lot worse then a high fat diet, actually.


Great. Thanks for the reminder

"If not, drink more alkaline water. But read on it and create your own opinion (best)."

The alkaline/acidic diet is a myth. Diet will RARELY have an effect on the pH level of your blood, as it is constantly regulated by your kidneys, and acidosis does not leech minerals from the bones. And drinking alkaline water can destroy healthy bacteria in the gut.

[chriskresser.com]
[chriskresser.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2014 10:35PM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and acidosis does not leech minerals from
> the bones.

I think you suffered brain damaged and now you are impaired and giving bad advice. I am not going to be a causal victim of your deterioration. Could it be the bottle of mushroom crystals you ate?

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > and acidosis does not leech minerals from
> > the bones.
>
> I think you suffered brain damaged and now you are
> impaired and giving bad advice. I am not going to
> be a causal victim of your deterioration. Could it
> be the bottle of mushroom crystals you ate?


I think you think you're knowledgeable when it comes to health and nutrition... ignorance is bliss. Could you please provide a shred of evidence that acidic diets leech minerals from the bones? I can actually back up my claims, as I already did with the two links I provided... but I'll add some more.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "A causal association between dietary acid load and osteoporotic bone disease is not supported by evidence and there is no evidence that an alkaline diet is protective of bone health."

More on the alkaline water mythos concocted by water machine salesmen and manufacturers used to pull the wool over sheep's eyes while fleecing them of their $$'s. This could only have occured because so few people, like Panchito apparently, decided Biology 101 was worth the time to take in college. IMO.


[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2014 11:39PM by SueZ.

"This could only have occured because so few people, like Panchito apparently, decided Biology 101 was worth the time to take in college. IMO."

Like TSM frequently says, a lot of people, including so-called guru's are caught up in raw food 101 nonsense. This stuff just gets repeated over and over again but rarely does anyone ever stop to question whether it's true or not, they just automatically assume it is because it goes with their current beliefs, engaging in confirmation bias. People don't like to look at both sides of the story, they just want to read something that makes them feel secure about what they already believe, rather than focusing on the truth. This mentality leads to disinformation that can harm other people.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "This could only have occured because so few
> people, like Panchito apparently, decided Biology
> 101 was worth the time to take in college. IMO."
>
> Like TSM frequently says, a lot of people,
> including so-called guru's are caught up in raw
> food 101 nonsense. This stuff just gets repeated
> over and over again but rarely does anyone ever
> stop to question whether it's true or not, they
> just automatically assume it is because it goes
> with their current beliefs, engaging in
> confirmation bias. People don't like to look at
> both sides of the story, they just want to read
> something that makes them feel secure about what
> they already believe, rather than focusing on the
> truth. This mentality leads to disinformation that
> can harm other people.


That's one of the reasons I prefer civilization to clannish tribalism.

ja ja. I am not going to fall to start talking to someone cannot even talk straight. I don't need to prove anything and waste my time with someone so far down the hole.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and acidosis does not leech minerals from
> the bones.

Bye bye



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 12:12AM by Panchito.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ja ja. I am not going to fall to start talking to
> someone cannot even talk straight. I don't need to
> prove anything and waste my time with someone so
> far down the hole.
>
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > and acidosis does not leech minerals from
> > the bones.
>
> Bye bye

He was talking about acidic/ alkaline water. I'm assuming he did not mean to type "acidosis" which is a whole different thing and a serious medical condition and which WILL cause leaching from the bones and teeth. He will have to explain himself though.

""ja ja. I am not going to fall to start talking to someone cannot even talk straight. I don't need to prove anything and waste my time with someone so far down the hole."

Per usual, Panchito loses the argument, makes a pathetic insult and then dips. I'm not going to stop calling you out on your ignorance, so either start doing some research or expect to look like a fool. You have once again shown that you aren't mature enough or smart enough to have an intelligent, lively discussion. Drop the ego and have the guts to admit when you're wrong. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you cannot back up what you are saying, it's not true just because you would like to think it is.

"He was talking about acidic/ alkaline water. I'm assuming he did not mean to type "acidosis" which is a whole different thing and a serious medical condition and which WILL cause leaching from the bones and teeth. He will have to explain himself though."

What was meant is that so-called "acidic" diets do not cause leeching of minerals from the bones. Acidosis, the actual condition, causes bone loss, but this condition is not caused by "acidic" diets, as Panchito insinuates. So yes, I do need to clear up the wording.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 12:52AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Per usual, Panchito loses the argument, makes a
> pathetic insult and then dips

nope. I just don't want to talk to you. YOu always answer last to interpret/justify to others whatever. It is pathetic to talk to someone that ignores/changes stuff around and it gets tiring. Everything got a limit and my time with you is experied

"nope. I just don't want to talk to you."

That's fine with me, but I'm still going to call you out on your ignorance. Your illogical and unsound 'advice' can hurt other people.

I am not here to educate you! you don't even know you don't know but you like to call people ignorant. Why don't you start here

calcium metabolism [en.wikipedia.org]

Potential negative interactions

"Unesterified long-chain saturated fatty acids, i.e. palmitic acid, have a melting point above body temperature and, with sufficient calcium in the intestinal lumen, form insoluble calcium soaps."[6]
Sodium binding to calcium[7]
Phytic acid binding to calcium[8]
Oxalic acid binding to calcium[9]
Cortisol[10] binding to calcium[11]
Low pH food and proteins

if you have money buy a book! really, that helps to avoid embarrashment. Try this one (read chapetr 4.5):

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

"I am not here to educate you!"

Good, because that's never been the case nor are you qualified to educate anyone regarding health and nutrition.

"calcium metabolism [en.wikipedia.org]"

This is why you are not to be taken seriously. I post real scientific evidence and you respond with Wikipedia which can be edited by anyone at any given time and also doesn't include any evidence that "acidic" diets leech minerals. It's a MYTH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 09:14PM by jtprindl.

" Supplements are necessary to counter the dietary deficiency of many micronutrients."

Ironic how you use this as an argument against a diet yet you yourself needs to take zinc and DHA (and who knows what else) just so you don't develop nutritional deficiencies on your inadequate diet.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is why you are not to be taken seriously. I
> post real scientific evidence and you respond with
> Wikipedia which can be edited by anyone at any
> given time and also doesn't include any evidence
> that "acidic" diets leech minerals. It's a MYTH.

you can taste your theories wwith lemon juice and your teeth

bye bye again

"you can taste your theories wwith lemon juice and your teeth"

Wow, the ignorance was strong on that one. Very strong.

What you said about Wikipedia is no longer true. They now have reasonably strict standards where new entries and edits are reviewed for legitimate source material, grammar, etc.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I am not here to educate you!"
>
> Good, because that's never been the case nor are
> you qualified to educate anyone regarding health
> and nutrition.
>
> "calcium metabolism "
>
> This is why you are not to be taken seriously. I
> post real scientific evidence and you respond with
> Wikipedia which can be edited by anyone at any
> given time and also doesn't include any evidence
> that "acidic" diets leech minerals. It's a MYTH.

"What you said about Wikipedia is no longer true. They now have reasonably strict standards where new entries and edits are reviewed for legitimate source material, grammar, etc."

Regardless, the belief that acidic diets leech minerals is a myth. Notice how that's the only bullet point without a citation... because it's not proven.

Anyways, sorry for the harsh words, Panchito, have a great day



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 10:33PM by jtprindl.

hmm...hmm. Bones are regulated by hormones but also, there are non-hormonal regulations (and other stuff). For the benefit of everybody, I'll post the following from a real bone expert (30 years studying bones - not a punk with a blog). Make your own judment.

[www.amazon.com]

This is what A. S. Naidu says:

Quote

Bones contain large stores of buffer, in the form of mineral salts to effectively balance the ph changes that occur in the body. Acid-base balance (or tritation) in the body has a significant metabolic outcome on the bone turnover, especially on the rates of bone resorption and calcium mobilization.

Acids are metabolic end products of the body. Digestion of proteins and amino acids from the diet results in production of acids, like sulfuric, hydrochloric, and phosphoric acids. These acids are instantly buffered in the blood and quickly excreted by the kidneys. In the event of inadequate buffering capacity of the blood, the skeletal system provides an acid-alkaline balance by absorbing or releasing alkaline reserve of calcium and magnesium. These cations are released from the bone to titrate an overly acidic milieu. However, repeated borrowing of the bone's alkaline reserves can be potentially detrimental to health. However, if the acid production is increased and its excretion is impaired, a serius clinical condition called 'metabolic acidosis' will arise. In response, the kidneys react to the circulating calcium in the plasma and increase the excretion of calcium in urine (or hypercalcinuria). Metabolic acidosis can onset osteoporosis, muscle wasting and kidney dysfunction (due to increase risk of calcium-based kidney stones).

In adults, the bone buffering capacity is extremely poor due to its low water content and highly exchangeable bone mineral surface. Therefore, even a mild acid exposure can trigger the onset of osteoporosis in the elderly. A diet that neutralize the endogenous acid production may increase calcium and phosphate retention, reduce bone resorption and increase bone formation.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 11:31PM by Panchito.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> if you have money buy a book! really, that helps
> to avoid embarrashment. Try this one (read chapetr
> 4.5):
>
> [www.rawfoodsupport.com]
> 41846


LoL! Something about this smells really, really familiar, Panchito. Did you write this self-published book yourself or just do the spell checking?

"10.2 X 8.5 X .8 INCHES 247 PAGES A PREAMBLE TO BIO-REPLACEMENT THEORY and a comprehensive review of the most happening system in the human body the SKELETON Theis science simplified version describes the cumulative effect of genetics chemistry and lifestule on the physiological outcomes of the bone. both functional (health) and dusfunctional (disease). Bone is a mineral bank., especially for the deposit and withdrawals of calcium, a process essential for the heart to beat. the nerve cell to flash an electric impulse, the muscle to swithc and the bowel to move. Bone (morrow) is a blood factor and also pserves a structural function, it sculpt our face, furthermore providess a protectiver armor, mechanical levers to move and ability to hear sound."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 11:26PM by SueZ.

you sure can investigate the credentials of A. S. Naidu and compare them to your guru Tavis Bradley je je je

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What you said about Wikipedia is no longer true.
> They now have reasonably strict standards where
> new entries and edits are reviewed for legitimate
> source material, grammar, etc.



Yes, lots of rubbish posted in here because it doesn't take into account some very important findings and solutions to various diet issues.

I have 54 pages of notes so far on high fat diets with excellent studies included, and scientifically backed up solutions to making higher fat diets safe. I also have another 110 pages of notes on the alkaline diet nonsense.

When people read the final research papers people will realise the nonsense being posted here. It's time to put all the nonsense theories from wiki and websites to bed once and for all with some good solid well referenced research so we don't have to keep on argueing silly diet 101 arguments. I am spending hours of work from the middle of the night most days on these topics for months, because if the work isn't done we are just going to be spitting out partial irrelevant nonsense for the rest of our lives.

It's time to bring all of the for and against arguments togeather and provide the scientifically sound solutions to the diet dilemas. In other words, it's time to bring everything into context so we avoid diet 101 talk. We need to write a big broad paper which takes into account all the landmark findings and ditch the silly partial wiki stuff which can often be highly misleading.

It's time to end the inanity, because the information is available. It's just a case of doing the work.

I am sick of wiki, the health websites, raw food leaders etc. Lets start getting real and providing proper information.

I will be going away for a while, but i'll be back with some big bombshells to share. I am excited, and l know some will be excited with the information l have found. Time to ditch wishy washy rubbish...it's time to start putting things togeather.

In sum...the raw food diet and higher fat levels is not as bad as we think. So many factors and mechanisms come into play which provide protection mechanisms, and everything will be proven with studies and balanced commentary.

We just can't cherrey pick certain studies and base conclusions in typical diet 101 fashion...we must read dozens and dozens of studies across the board and put everything into context. Things are not always what they seem.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 11:52PM by The Sproutarian Man.

sorry to burst your Quixotic crusade. when you come back click here:

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]



The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I have 54 pages of notes so far on high fat diets
> with excellent studies included, and
> scientifically backed up solutions to making
> higher fat diets safe. I also have another 110
> pages of notes on the alkaline diet nonsense.

> In sum...the raw food diet and higher fat levels
> is not as bad as we think. So many factors and
> mechanisms come into play which provide protection
> mechanisms, and everything will be proven with
> studies and balanced commentary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 11:50PM by Panchito.