The prestigeous peer reviewed American Journal of Clinal Nutrition reported in April 1990 in Volume 51 no.4 that the calcium in Kale (a low oxalic acid vegetable) is highly absorbable because the oxalic acid to calcium ratio is much less than 1.
[ajcn.nutrition.org]

They also reported in April 1988 in Vol 47 no.4 that calcium from Spinach (a high oxalic acid vegetable) is very poorly absorbed. Eventhough all spinach calcium was binded by the oxalic acid, a small amount was still absorbed because the intestinal bacteria liberated some of the oxalic acid from the calcium making it available in a very small quantity (5% at most).
[ajcn.nutrition.org]

That is the basic summery, and l think these two studies were the first of their kind done on people. Lots of opinions out there on oxalic acid, but hopefully these two studies will give people something more solid to go on regarding calcium.

If you are going to drink spinach juice l would try it with fermented wheat sprout water to liberate the oxalic acid from the calcium.

l might post a few other goodies another day, but only the stuff of high interest to people here.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2013 02:21AM by The Sproutarian Man.

I'd appreciate it if you could supply the links to other articles than the ones you've supplied please. I've given up trying to have a calm discussion with people regarding 'calcium'. Most people think of calcium as being white which is just propoganda re the dairy industry.

And when I suggest that there's much more calcium in vegies than milk I'm almost hung from the nearest pole. Then they go on about calcium deficiency if we're not careful and drink enough milk and/or eat enough cheese, in which case I say calcium deficiency is an absolute rarity, except perhaps in children, and I'm almost burnt at the stake.

Then I ask that not to be asked question, 'Have you done any research yourself to base your conclusions on?' and I'm almost run out of town. I know that absorbability is a problem, though many suggest that combined with vit C increases it many fold. What say you on that?

Jalan

So sproutarian man

jalanutan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd appreciate it if you could supply the links to
> other articles than the ones you've supplied
> please.

l know what you are saying. I was hoping to remove this thread but l was unable to delete it unfortunately. Still...a few good things come out of the study despite talking about cooked plants. The striking observation made was that the calcium from cooked kale was very highly absorbed where-as the calcium from spinach was very poorly absorbed. This strongly points to oxalic acid being a factor in blocking calcium absorption. It also states that cooking will not solve the oxalic acid problem like so many claim, so this is a good study. But what about raw Kale and spinach??..l imagine it could be the same, oxalic acid binding, but i'll have to dig deeper and find out. Lots of studies do suggest oxalic acid binding in raw foods but it is hard to say for certain.

What is also interesting is that studies now suggest that using small amounts of dairy with raw vegetables actually helps overcome problems of phytic acid and tannins. WHOA. Who would have ever thought that.

> And when I suggest that there's much more calcium
> in vegies than milk I'm almost hung from the
> nearest pole.
l think it is more an issue of absorbability that the total level of calcium. But yes, it looks like the highest consumers of dairy in the world have the worst osteoporosis.


Then they go on about calcium
> deficiency if we're not careful and drink enough
> milk and/or eat enough cheese, in which case I say
> calcium deficiency is an absolute rarity, except
> perhaps in children, and I'm almost burnt at the
> stake.
I understand why you say calcium deficiency is a rarity, but is it??? How how we measuring calcium, from the blood? It shouldn't be deficient in the blood because our bones can supply any shortage of calcium so in effect we are never deficient in the blood, but using the bones to supply any shortage can still be argued as a calcium deficiency because eventually osteoporosis can occur. That's my opinion, but beware..l am not studied up on calcium as yet.


>
> Then I ask that not to be asked question, 'Have
> you done any research yourself to base your
> conclusions on?' and I'm almost run out of town. I
> know that absorbability is a problem, though many
> suggest that combined with vit C increases it many
> fold. What say you on that?
At the moment l am heavily focussed on various plant anti-nutrients, fermentation studies, sprouting studies, other food processing studies and it's effects on iron and zinc and other nutrients. Hundreds of studies to read on that subject alone, and some of those studies are very long and complex. l am also looking at plant fiber levels and types and their effects on nutrition (a very interesting area too). In time l will get to studying calcium and other things, but at the moment l need to stick with what l am doing. Iron and zinc are big nutritional problems with raw vegans along with many other nutrients, but at least we can do certain things to solve these problems. That's what l am really focussed on right now...solving these nutritional problems by food processing (fermenting and sprouting) various foods. I am trying to give solid science because the way most of us do raw vegan isn't going to work in the long term because we are violating many basic principles, ie, fresh eating and fermentation.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2013 10:34PM by The Sproutarian Man.

That was a good conversation Storm/Sproutarian with a little humour included. It's what we don't know that's the problem I believe.

As far as calcium deficiency, I've read many conflicting research papers that there must be so many 'external variables' that influence the outcome, and it's difficult to actually prove anything. I believe we can up to a point, though from then on, anyones guess will do. Hence the reason why the outcomes of all studies are suggestions at best. And due to this, the media have a field day, since they can suggest anything and not be prosecuted, using words such as 'help', 'can', 'could' etc., it's all in the semantics.

For example, a test can be reliable no matter how many times it's replicated. Though each test may not be valid. Whereas a valid study is also reliable. So, to return to the issue of whether something can be reliable though have no validity. The reason, is that an independent variable may have been manipulated by the researcher or already present; therefore, affecting the dependent variable or outcome which would always be the same.

A good analogy would be a set of scales in order to fully understand the exercise. If we were to weigh an item of a specific volume, each time the item was weighed, the outcome would be the same in every instance. However, the set of scales maybe inaccurate, rendering every exercise invalid.

So, while a particular study maybe reliable, it still may not be valid.

Cheers, Jalan

jalanutan
Here is a photo of isolated pure calcium. I would say its metalic silver colored! NOT white! But this isn't the form that would do anyone any good!


[chemistry.about.com]

I just thought of something else. Isn't magnesium deficiency a bigger concern? Or at least it should be? yet, most people don't seem to be aware thats a much larger deficit than calcium. Vegetables are a great source of magnesium, I think milk...not so much....

jalanutan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> As far as calcium deficiency, I've read many
> conflicting research papers that there must be so
> many 'external variables' that influence the
> outcome, and it's difficult to actually prove
> anything.
Yes, calcium issues do appear very complex with many variables and it is hard to prove anything.

The good news is that the studies on ani-nutrients (very high in a sprout based diet) actually proves that sprouting seeds and fermenting greatly improves bioavailability of nutrients. But not only that, you can feel it!!! All the sprouted food goes down much smoother and the increased power is wonderful. Fermenting those sprouts is the key.


I believe we can up to a point, though
> from then on, anyones guess will do. Hence the
> reason why the outcomes of all studies are
> suggestions at best.

Very true.
>
> For example, a test can be reliable no matter how
> many times it's replicated. Though each test may
> not be valid. Whereas a valid study is also
> reliable. So, to return to the issue of whether
> something can be reliable though have no validity.

>
> So, while a particular study maybe reliable, it
> still may not be valid.
>
> Cheers, Jalan

Yes, science doesn't understand much. All we can do is process fresh foods as they suggest and see how we feel and see how much we absorb via testing.

That pic of Calcium is great Mislu. The first thing that entered my mind was, 'Why aren't we all like the 'Wolverine'??? haha I reckon the reason why people visualise calcium as being white is due to the dairy industry using the media pushing the idea about milk, yoghurt contaning heaps of calcium haha. I asked a lady at the shops the other day what colour she thinks calcium is, and she said yellow. She said it was the colour of cheese, well that's the first time anyone has said that to me. I wonder if people in America think it's 'orange', since the cheese is orange there, or at least it was in Hawaii when I was there.

Yes Sproutarian guy, I wholeheartedly agree with you. I've actually begun buying bags of sprouts to see if I feel any different, organic of course. I've only just begun, but I still feel like I have more energy. I don't know if it's the sprouts or mainly cause I want it to work? I beleive it's the sprouts, cause everything you've said about sprouts over the last year is logical, and I've no reason to doubt anything you've said. And I'm glad you couldn't delete this thread hey!

Cheers, jalan

Jalanutan,
Thats so great! wolverine! Didn't think about that. Its sad people thinking that its white. Maybe they are thinking of bones and teeth also? I bet it will really catch them of guard when you say its metallic!


Calcium from dairy is scary.

Its like driving a car with only an accelerator and no brakes. People like to emphasize the amount of calcium and how easy its absorbed. Well,how many think of toxicity or excess? Iron from meat is something similar. That stuff freaks me out. Thinking that I could have an excess of iron because it just gets absorbed if your body needs it or not. I never knew that men really don't have a way to shed excess iron, unless one bleeds or donates blood etc... Women of reproductive age can loose excess iron by menstruation or by child birth.

jalanutan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That pic of Calcium is great Mislu. The first
> thing that entered my mind was, 'Why aren't we all
> like the 'Wolverine'??? haha I reckon the
> reason why people visualise calcium as being white
> is due to the dairy industry using the media
> pushing the idea about milk, yoghurt contaning
> heaps of calcium haha. I asked a lady at the shops
> the other day what colour she thinks calcium is,
> and she said yellow. She said it was the colour of
> cheese, well that's the first time anyone has said
> that to me. I wonder if people in America think
> it's 'orange', since the cheese is orange there,
> or at least it was in Hawaii when I was there.
>
> Yes Sproutarian guy, I wholeheartedly agree with
> you. I've actually begun buying bags of sprouts to
> see if I feel any different, organic of course.
> I've only just begun, but I still feel like I have
> more energy. I don't know if it's the sprouts or
> mainly cause I want it to work? I beleive it's the
> sprouts, cause everything you've said about
> sprouts over the last year is logical, and I've no
> reason to doubt anything you've said. And I'm glad
> you couldn't delete this thread hey!
>
> Cheers, jalan


Ferment those sprouts between a temperiture of 15 - 32 degrees C, that's the key!!! Soak those non green sprouts for a day or two in fermented wheat sprout water to remove anti nutrients like lectins, tannins, oxalates, nutrient stripping phytates in the form of IP6's (need to convert these to IP1-5's), inhibitors of enzymes such as alpha-amylase, trypsin, and chymotrypsin, saponins, cyanogenic glycosides, rogue proteins such as gluton, and various other anti nutrients.

Soak lentil sprouts for a day or two in fermented grain sprout water and keep out of the way of people so it is not contaminated. Soak sunflower seed sprouts, sesame seed sprouts and chia seed sprouts for 2 days in fermented water, and POW!!!...you'll be flying high before no time. Have fermented sea weeds, fermented nuts...fermented everything!!! It's more powerful than pro-biotics imo because the nutrient binding is avoided and the use of pro-biotics for unlocking the bind is virtually useless for some nutrients, therfore avoid the nutrient lock by fermenting first.

You wouldn't believe how powerful this stuff is. l have the glee and energy of a child. l feel excited to live and stress is minimal and l don't need to eat much. When l do my sprouts l skip around the yard like a child and have a spring in my step, yet l am middle age.

There is no need to be scared of the big bad wolf anymore, we can tame the savage beast. Take on the high anti-nutrient diet, tame it, and get the extra goodies it can give up. If you unlock those sprouts it is game over!!! If you don't ferment those sprouts you will not reach the levels l talk about.

A raw sproutarian diet is not enough if we don't ferment those foods.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2013 12:49AM by The Sproutarian Man.

If calcium was as simple as having dairy then no one in the western world would be calcium deficient or have osteoporosis. We have an abundance of milk, cheese and yoghurt and just eating it doesn't translate into calcium.

I am not in any specific camp any more, but I always ask the calcium dairy people where do the elephants, rhinos, hippos, gorillas, oxen, horses, etc. get their calcium from, and how do they have such magnificent bone structure and tusks or horns without having any dairy???? They eat the natural fresh green growing food - ( and don't consume tons and tons of sugary fruit).

I have found that the green curly kale on sale here i can eat. It seems to be from the cabbage family - or tastes like cabbage. There is also a purple kale which tastes like spinach and that one I don't eat. I also don't like the taste of spinach so i don't eat that as well.

Despite all the @#$%& people put on D. Wolfe on this board, his Sunfood book impressed on me the importance of eating adequate amounts of leafy greens and it's importance in the diet, and for that I like him. In the past no one dealt with that subject so I am not interested in any of his faults because I know how important his chapters on leafy greens were for my health.

l like David too. Actually, l like all the raw food people. l may not agree with many of them, but l would be more than happy to spend some time with any of them.

Hey sproutarian guy, you've givin me the motivation to do what you've said, to ferment my sprouts, and also try others as well. It might take me to the next level, actually I reckon it will as it sounds so logical to me.

Haha Mislu, yeah, people would freak lol. Can you tell me where you got that info?

BJ, that's a good point re Rhino's etc., and their huge bulk and bones yet they don't drink milk past weening or make cheese haha. What was their answer? I bet they just fobbed you off.

jalan

Hey sproutarian guy is there anything about the fermentation process that I need to know about? It sounds like you can use the same water to ferment all the sprouts. Can you drink the water after? Or isn't it drinkable?

Jalan

Jalan, what can they say? Most people know very little and just repeat what they hear. In any case, I have learnt a long while back not to discuss, debate, argue or voice my opinion about diet, health, raw foods, etc. with people unless they are interested or want to know. I just keep quiet. On a board like this it's different because we all have the same interests.

Jalan,
Well, I took high school and college chemistry. Also some basic review of chemistry for my allied health program. Here is a periodic table.
[www.chemicool.com]

Calcium is in the second column 3rd row under BE, and Magnesium. Its considered an Alkali Earth Metal. So I just did a search for pure calcium under images, and 'viola'. Its much more impressive when someone sees what it looks like as humans are so visual.

But it is rather unexpected, as any element is not going to be in its most pure form in food. Even oxide or salt forms are often not in a plant, but might be added to food.

The point would be FORM is important, and the most concentrated source isn't the best. I am not sure what pure calcium would do if one chewed on pure calcium and ingested it, but I can predict...nothing good...

Here is pure sodium, a classic chemists demonstration. Another essential element, but pure sodium consumption would not be good!
[www.youtube.com]

Jalan
I found calcium in water. Not as impressive, but that would be quite the dangerous antacid.
[www.youtube.com]

Another major problem mentioned in all books and websites is that soaking nuts and seeds is enough to reduce anti nutrients, but this is far from the reality. It's not going to work with high tannin foods, so this means that protein digestability is still a problem with some foods.

Soaking and germination is only a beginning stage of food processing.
[eprints.uni-mysore.ac.in]

Yes, fermentation needs to occur to really solve the problem of high tannin foods to make protein much more digestable:
[pubs.acs.org]

In regards to phytic acid it is a whole different ballgame. From memory, about 90% of certain phytic acid (l think it is IP6) needs to be converted to lower forms before iron becomes absorbable. With zinc it is different because the more phytic acid that are converted to lower forms the more zinc that is absorbed. (I'll find the studies to prove it another day).

See, tannins and phytic acid are a real problem, but all the books and websites that have an interest in raw foods (sprouting books and sites and raw food teachers) don't deal with the true science and paint an overly simplistic rosey picture when it is far from the case.

There is also suggestions that fiber can inhibit absorption of nutrients, and there is one study which actually proved it when adding minerals to a diet externally. It just leads me to believe that we should be basing our main meal around fermented sprouts nuts/seeds and not eating so much unprocessed fruit and vegetables - eat concentrated nutrient high water based foods.

+ soaking doesn't always decrease anti nutrients, it can increase them in the case of tannins in some foods (see first study linked).

It's time we raw fooders started getting real and stopped eating so crudely.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2013 12:52AM by The Sproutarian Man.

To leave us under no illusions on how difficult the vegan diet is, here is a science link showing that added dairy to a diet greatly stops the calcium binding of high oxalic acid foods.

Oxalate: effect on calcium absorbability
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Perhaps one of many reasons why there has been no recorded vegan cultures in history.

When doing raw vegan we don't have some of the safe guards of cooked and dairy to help out. Both cooked and dairy have been shown to reduce anti nutrients and can increase absorption of minerals, but when we do raw we expose ourselves to many difficulties, so we better become knowledgable and on top of our game with the vegan diet or else we'll probably pay the price in the long term.

If people couldn't absorb minerals from cooked food then most of the population wouldn't have any minerals in their blood. The theory that cooked food causes minerals to become unabsorbable inorganic rock-like substances is nonsense. Ann Wigmore and Andrew Norton Webber always push/pushed this line.

Btw, l am not for cooked food at all, but l can see why some people do need to have it to provide some relief from an all raw diet.

Moral of the post.....if you do a raw vegan diet you better know what you are doing. Raw vegans are really really up against it...very hard to make it work for most people. I don't want people to be under any illusions of the difficulty of this diet.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The raw vegan diet is also very low in Zinc,
> whilst being excessively rich in its antagonist
> Copper,

The key to fixing that is to ferment. Fermentation can greatly increase zinc bioavailability but has little effect on copper, this means the ratio can be put into much much balance better.

Yes, most of the raw gurus are well off track with many things. They talk `raw 101' and hardly ever move beyond that.

True about the eating lots of calories and still looking under fed, + many of the raw vegans look pale with dull skin and nutritionally deficient despite them claiming their bloodwork is good. Good bloodwork isn't neccessarily meaningful.

People are not waking up because these raw gurus are putting nonsense ideas in their heads.

The raw vegan is diet very very hard to make work. It's better the raw gurus get less of a cult following and for people to think for themselves by doing thorough research and see the pros and cons of diets. All diets have advantages and dissadvantages, but some diets have more holes than others. People must understand raw vegan foods much much better than they are. It's important to take all raw vegan websites and books with a grain of salt, because nearly all paint an over rosey picture of the raw vegan lifestyle.

The raw vegan lifestyle is no game...it is serious business! It is very hard work that is very inconvenient.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2013 10:14AM by The Sproutarian Man.

According to Don Tolman, blood tests have a 96% inaccuracy rate and nearly always give false positives. The public blood testing system in my country is highly floored, and l assume it is floored in many countries. Private blood testing is the way to go, but it costs much more.

Green juice is very perishable so how do you get that juice into fermentation without making it totally unusable.

TSM, are you familiar with John Fielder? You can google him and read his bio. I went to see him in 1976 and his advice was to eat fruit and nuts mainly. Now for himself he has fruit. salads, nuts and raw goat dairy a couple of times a week as he feels he needs the concentrated protein. He is over 80 and has been a practicing naturopath with an organic farm / health retreat living in the tropics for many many years and dealt with real people.

At least he is honest about his situation. A philosophy is pointless if it doesn't work, or one is expending more in effort, stress and disruption in ones life to what they get in return.

The fact he has such a minimal amount of raw dairy occasionally is counterbalanced by the fact he has advised many many people on health issues,and runs an organic farm and health retreat. At some point the health food / raw food movement needs to accept reality as it is, not as they would like it to be in a fantasy. Having said that, if people are able to be healthy long term successful raw vegans that is great, but it's a big if.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> An interesting thing ive found from many raw
> vegans blood work that ive seen is that many have
> elevated triglycerides, which is interesting
> considering many of these individuals don't
> consume much or any overt fats. The elevated
> triglycerides is likely from the excessive
> sugar/carb intake, which is well documented.

JUST TO ADD, THIS CAN ALSO BE FROM TO MUCH COCONUT OIL
>
> The Natural Health Blogger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2013 12:59AM by rzman10001.

adding fat can help with high t. levels. Dietary fat is needed for hormone production (same with protein). Homones regulate trigs and are part of their cylcle. For example, people who do 90/5/5 could be bellow healthy hormone production levels. Adding half a guacamole or/and coconut oil a day could help.


"[www.mayoclinic.com];

Triglycerides are a type of fat (lipid) found in your blood. When you eat, your body converts any calories it doesn't need to use right away into triglycerides. The triglycerides are stored in your fat cells. Later, hormones release triglycerides for energy between meals. If you regularly eat more calories than you burn, particularly "easy" calories like carbohydrates and fats, you may have high triglycerides (hypertriglyceridemia).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2013 11:52AM by Panchito.

Had 20 oz of spinach juice yesterday...the first green vegetable drink l have had in years. This spinach was given to me from a neighbour and it was very old plant and high in oxalic acid.

I felt a burning of the throat and soon felt very low energy and was sick, felt completely green to the gills all day. These effects of high oxalic acid foods are well reported by people.

I have very high oxalic acid foods all the time, but adequate food processing never makes it a problem. But those nasty old brutes we call adult plants can be nasty.

Babies = nice and easy to tame and full of phytochemicals
Adults = they become nasty brutes full of anti nutrients and harsh fibers and much lower levels of phytochemicals.

People say that raw foods doesn't cause oxalic acid to be a problem, but it doesn't appear to be the case at all. People say that cooked oxalic acid is the real problem, but cooking destroys some oxalic acid, but still a problem.

Lots to still talk about on this subject, but l will get back to this when l have more time.

Oxalic acid does lock with calcium in the acid environment of the stomach and becomes largely insoluable. Only 1 - 5% can be absorbed from the alkaline environment of the intestines. But it looks like the molar ratio of oxalate - calcium is also a factor in calcium absorption according to science papers, so things like parsley and kale may be o.k to consume raw. l'll post some science studies on this later.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2013 10:32PM by The Sproutarian Man.

as