With wild fermentations, like what one does when making rejuvelac, the quality of the final product depends on whether there were sufficient "good" bacteria present in the environment, but also it may depend on the energy of the person making the ferment. If the person has "bad" or negative energy, this could promote the bad bacteria or rotting, and the opposite is true, if a person has good energy, this will promote the good or preserving bacteria.

I suppose one way to increase the balance of good bacteria is to seed the rejuvelac with some lactobacillus from a probiotic capsule.

do they explicate what those carcinogens are exactly- in fermented products

sounds like a bad disease LOL

rubber manufacturing, huh?

food is dangerous

eat lots and lots

and be MORE dangerous

urethane?

yes good question urethane? I thought there was a poly-urethane but never heard of just urethane.

Another question, can pumpkin seeds be fermented? and how its it best to do that?

An easy way to ferment foods is to stir in some starter, of course you'd have to blend the seeds with water to make a paste for this to work properly. You can use the juice from something that is already successfully fermented. If you are not eating a vegan diet the whey that collects in yogurt when a spoonful has been scooped out is effective. For a vegan ferment use a brine ferment you've batched or look online for kefir or another starter.

I am taking bitters with meals to aid digestion these day as well as supplementing with a very good probiotic. It's helping me. Have you tried bitters? You could use a dried bitter herb like artichoke leaf rather than an alcohol based tincture, just a taste on the back of the tongue before eating should do the trick. It really helps with fats (nuts and seeds).

storm

<<another carcinogen in fermented foods is acetyldehyde. Of course everything in moderation right? But when a sproutarian/raw vegan diet says pretty much everything but fruits should be fermented that could be a problem if you're not careful. And for a sproutarian, just what doesn't have to be fermented? Seems like everything sprouted should be. Just as all veggies, algaes, nuts, again anything except for fruit right?

Which most people don't have the resources for e.g. money, distance, contacts, fresh, etc.>>

also weather u forgot to list weather
like winter for instance
isn't it totally freezing in most parts of the world during winter time
do you also sprout during winter? if so, how?
okay, so i'm new to sprouting so maybe i'm asking a silly question
i thought some sunlight was needed, right?
what if u live in alaska and its no sun for most of the year
do u have a good amount of sun in the winter?

Storm, I am going to suggest, if you haven't already, that you have your thyroid function checked. Mine was off, I suddenly gained some weight after 40 years of complete stability in that department. I took some lugols iodine, 5 drops daily, for a couple of months and reversed that but too far, to the opposite end of the spectrum! Now I take one drop here or there when I feel it's needed, I have a sense of that thyroid related exhaustion and can guage at this point if that's what's going on with my system or if it's something else or a bunch of contributing factors. I go with the lugol's instead of sea veg so I can be sure of the levels I'm consuming, as well as avoiding all the extra undesirable stuff in the kelp, dulse etc. I use seaweeds as occassional condiments in our diet only. I know this is not "natural" but I consider it medicine, the iodine, to treat a specific condition.

Blood testing has been a good resource for me because it takes out the guess work. I never follow a doctors recommendations because they are so entirely full of cr@p about everything health related but it gives me a direction to work on on my own and that's been valuable for me. B12, iron, D3, thyroid, hormones. My system is changing as I age and the things that worked for me in the past are changing along with that. The book, Prescription for Nutritional Healing is my go-to resource for everything.

When I am fermenting sometimes I'll make a few batches at a time. They keep in the fridge very well and last for ages, I am only eating a small daily. Quick fermenting is easy by stirring in a bit of the ferment juice into whatever sauce etc and leaving out overnight. I find the flavour sharper and less delicious but if you're feeling very tired you can keep a jar of juice in the fridge just for that purpose. Takes very little energy that way.

Wouldn't true fermentation of seeds prevent sprouting?

Yes, I know of some fruit and berry seeds which sprout better after being eaten by an animal. The digestion softens and removes a hard seed coat. But the germinating part of the seed isn't digested like the outer coat. I can't think of any seed which is fermented before sprouting. Its possible that stuff around it might ferment, but the seed might survive the decomposition that was going on around it.

Are melon seeds edible? I have heard of watermelon seeds being edible. What about cantelope or muskmelon?

Mislu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are melon seeds edible? I have heard of watermelon
> seeds being edible. What about cantelope or
> muskmelon?

Watermelon seeds are said to be good for sprouting.

storm says:

<<Yes... I can get my thyroid levels checked soon. Though tbh I'm not sire its doing so bad as before when I would train I would actually feel my thyroid hurt and my heart race along with that. And get momentary feelings of almost whiting out (as opposed to blacking out) amd then almost vomiting. Now its just slow digestion. And a feeling of that its taking energy away from my training.
Argh. I used to be so good. One of the best in my class... now this.
I think im getting someahere though if not slowly but surely.>>

How long have u been training? And also, do you think you're training too hard?
Being best in the class probably means you train really hard ( like training really hard over several years...sounds stupid but do you think that contributed to it?) Just wondering. Though, maybe there is no such thing as training too hard if you really love it. There are degrees/spectrums. Some people train 3-5 hours a day every day for years with no breaks in between. Just wondering if you are one of those people. Not saying its a bad thing if you do. Its probably a great thing but just wondering if you think over training might be a contributing factor. People who train insane hours daily for like over years (some cuz they compete) and others because its their career end up getting exhausted.

<<Edit: i was vegan when i doing doin well. Overweight but more energy. Cinsuming hardly any sea veggies. But i think drugs wore down my thyroid and if anything else... electronics. Maybe a lack of vitamin d also because i forget to take it.>>

what do u mean by electronics? like, living near a power line?

storm

<<I actually think though that I'm doing much better. I still have been having digestive issues, and tiredness but I can tell that Im not lacking in calories because I can continue training almost indefinitely. It'll just be that I feel like I have a cold stomache, or a ball in my stomach and that's all. That doesn't let me be as quick and powerful and quick at the same time (short bursts) as I can, but I have endurance. I think the seaweeds have actually been helping me even though I haven't cut down. I also think Lugols is different from seaweed in that it's just iodine, seaweed has other factors in them which can help to balance everything out. But we'll see, if I start feeling like I was before I'll have to minimize them... I just wanted to get Potassium from them since I'm not getting it from anywhere else. Fruits seem to have them more in abundance, also some seeds like pumpkin and sunflower but I'm eating less of these now. Beans also do to but I've eliminated them from my diet. Theres not much info about sprout greens and their potassium content but I think the fenugreek/clover/broccoli I'm having dont have too much. I continued taking them because I wanted to take out some variables I thought could also be contributing to further thyroid inhibition, and build myself up so that perhaps I can use them.

In fact.. I don't know this if this is something but I've felt some flushes in my skin after taking the seaweeds. Especially after getting "amped up". Im not sure if this is a good sign but it hasn't made me feel bad. Kind of like a very weak niacin flush. I think it's a good sign.>>

i prefer kelp to the iodine liquid drops as well
i don't like the iodine liquid drops (bleehhh)
but i like the kelp powder
unless its just my imagination
i believe it gives me a lot more .. "depth" ( for lack of a better word)
of energy

it seems like its a very supportive force
i think its important
to do the seaweed
dulse is awesome too but i think kelp has more iodine
sometimes, after i make my salad
i'll sprinkle kelp on top of it

and yeah i like the added benefit of knowing that i'm getting a lot of other minerals too rather than just the iodine itself
i think the other minerals have a balancing effect on the iodine imo
and was meant to be taken in food form

Having moved to the city I'm having some issue with energy from wifi, cell towers, electronics and possibly the massive amount of humanity I now find myself surrounded by. It's less than I expected though so either the things I've been doing to bolster my system are working or I haven't reached a saturation level from exposure yet... We'll see I guess. In the meantime I'm going to keep doing the things that I've been doing and stay positive .

hey coco

that's good to hear
yeah, limiting exposure ( if possible)
and keeping the immunity reallyyy high
is key ( i believe) to thriving
even in the city

There's just no way to limit the exposure here, it's everywhere. I get strong wifi signals from my neighbours, one of them is nearly full strength in parts of the house. It's not wonderful for me, I have a perpetual low-grade headache. But I'm not sick with it so that's something.

I had white vegan kimchee today.That was good, and surprisingly low sodium. It seemed to hit the spot, my partner however is having some digestion problems from it.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Placing greens in the same category as vegetables
> has caused people to mistakenly apply the
> combining rules of starchy vegetables to greens.
> Driven by this confusion, many concerned people
> wrote to me inquiring if blending fruits with
> greens was proper food combining. They had heard
> that “fruits and vegetables did not mix well.”
> Yes, to combine starchy vegetables with fruits
> would not be a good idea. Such a combination can
> cause gas in the intestines. However, greens are
> not vegetables, and greens are not starchy. In
> fact, greens are the only food group that helps
> digest other foods through stimulating the
> secretion of digestive enzymes. Thus greens can be
> combined with any other foods. In addition, it has
> been recorded that chimpanzees often consume
> fruits and leaves from the same tree at the same
> feeding time. In fact, Jane Goodall and other
> researchers have observed them rolling fruits
> inside of leaves and eating them as
> “sandwiches.”
> - See more at:
> [www.rawfamily.com]
> wsletter-archive-2012/food-combining-in-green-smoo
> thies#sthash.wdzBCufx.dpuf

Yes another thing l strongly dissagree about with Victoria.

O.k, so if greens help digest other fruits, then why was l sick and in severe pain when l had pears 15 minutes after the wheatgrass juice? Isn't the enzymes in the grass supposed to digest the fruit according to Victoria?

How about when l blended an apple with alfalfa greens, why did l get a stomach upset and gas? Why Victoria, why?

Hippocrates Health Institute definitely dissagree with you, and l most certainly dissagree with her. Various food combining books dissagree with her too.

l love how these science people call food combining pheudo-science. LOL. How about the time when l had sesame seeds 30 minutes after a banana..almost 20 years ago, yet l remember the nightmare to this day. What about people who eat water melon after dinner and get stomach pains? Me think the science can be silly and dumb sometimes.

l have written to Jane to make sure Victoria has got her facts straight. Hopefully they write back to confirm that chimps do mix leaves with fruits.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2013 06:48AM by The Sproutarian Man.

<<Anyways even if chimps do it, that doesn't mean it proves it lol.>>

yeah, good point

animals get sick and they also die too (just a fact)

ever hear of predators going after the strong critters of a family or group of animals?

nope, they go after the ones that are ill, sick, or injured

cuz they are "easy prey"

which means that sickness does occur in nature

just sayin

i also don't buy into the notion of following a diet just because our predecessors did it

they also warred with each other quite frequently

which tells me one of two things ( both may be incorrect but so be it) :

1. their food choices caused aggression
2. their food choices were not enough to quell their aggressive spirits

or

none of the above... i just don't know what i'm talking about

probably the last thing i said was correct but just sayin...

My sproutarian friend (co-owner of our website) also reports doing very well on fermented foods.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TSM:
> I just thought, perhaps the reason why my
> rejuvelac was going bad was because i was only
> filling up the jar with grain only 1/3rd or less
> of the jar. Your instructions were to fill up half
> the jar with grain. I'll try this from now on.

1/3 of the jar is fine.

THeSt0rm, you ought to try making your rejuvelac with the EM ceramics (k type) to structure your water and put some good energy into your ferment.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THeSt0rm, you ought to try making your rejuvelac
> with the EM ceramics (k type) to structure your
> water and put some good energy into your ferment.

Or you can always try a water energising disk.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Prana Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > THeSt0rm, you ought to try making your
> > rejuvelac
> > > with the EM ceramics (k type) to structure
> your
> > > water and put some good energy into your
> > ferment.
> >
> > Or you can always try a water energising disk.
>
> I'm sorry but
> you didn't answer my question: do you mean
> 1/3rd-1/2 jar of dry grain when making rejuvelac
> or 1/3-1/2 of sprouted grain?
>
> regards

1/3 - 1/2 of sprouted grain seems good.

Some basic science on why sprouting and fermenting is the best combinbation to reduce anti nutrients:
[www.pjbs.org]

l'll post many more studies as time goes along. l am just summerising my research.

Reposted from the Oats thread. The proiblems with grains and legumes and how to fix many of the problems associated with them. (Can't find the science link unfortunately)

ANTINUTRIENTS AND TOXIC COMPONENTS IN CEREALS

Cereals and other plant foods may contain significant amounts of toxic or antinutritional substances. In this regard, legumes are a particularly rich source of natural toxicants including protease inhibitors, amylase inhibitors, metal chelates, flatus factors, hemagglutinins, saponins, cyanogens, lathyrogens, tannins, allergens, acetylenic furan and isoflavonoid phytoalexins (Pariza 1996). Most cereals contain appreciable amounts of phytates, enzyme inhibitors, and some cereals like sorghum and millet contain large amounts of polyphenols and tannins (Salunkhe et al. 1990). Some of these substances reduce the nutritional value of foods by interfering with mineral bioavailability, and digestibility of proteins and carbohydrates. Since legumes are often consumed together with cereals, proper processing of cereal-legume mixtures should eliminate these antinutrients before consumption (Chaven and Kadam 1989; Reddy and Pierson 1994).

Phytates

Phytic acid is the 1,2,3,4,5,6-hexaphosphate of myoinositol that occurs in discrete regions of cereal grains and accounts for as much as 85% of the total phosphorous content of these grains. Phytate reduces the bioavailability of minerals, and the solubility, functionality and digestibility of proteins and carbohydrates (Reddy et al. 1989). Fermentation of cereals reduces phytate content via the action of phytases that catalyze conversion of phytate to inorganic orthophosphate and a series of myoinositols, lower phosphoric esters of phytate. A 3-phytase appears to be characteristic of microorganisms, while a 6-phytase is found in cereal grains and other plant seeds (Reddy and Pierson 1994).

Tannins

Oligomers of flavan-3-ols and flavan-3,4-diols, called condensed tannins, occur widely in cereals and legumes (Haard and Chism 1996). These compounds are concentrated in the bran fraction of cereals (Salunkhe et al. 1990). Tannin-protein complexes can cause inactivation of digestive enzymes and reduce protein digestibility by interaction of protein substrate with ionizable iron (Salunkhe et al. 1990). The presence of tannins in food can therefore lower feed efficiency, depress growth, decrease iron absorption, damage the mucosal lining of the gastrointestinal tract, alter excretion of cations, and increase excretion of proteins and essential amino acids (Reddy and Pierson 1994). Dehulling, cooking and fermentation reduce the tannin content of cereals and other foods
.
Saponins

These sterol or triterpene glycosides occur widely in cereals and legumes (Shiraiwa et al. 1991). Saponins are detected by their hemolytic activity and surface active properties. Although the notion that they are detrimental to human health has been questioned (Reddy and Pierson 1994), they have been reported to cause growth inhibition (Cheeke 1976).

Enzyme Inhibitors

Protease and amylase inhibitors are widely occurent in seed tissues including cereal grains. Trypsin-, chymotrypsin-, subtilisin-inhibitor, and cysteine-protease inhibitors are present in all major rice cultivars grown in California, although the individual inhibitor amounts are quite varaiable and are concentrated in the bran fraction (Izquerdo-Pulido et al. 1994). They are believed to cause growth inhibition by interfering with digestion, causing pancreatic hypertrophy and metabolic disturbance of sulfur amino acid utilization (Reddy and Pierson 1994). Although these inhibitors tend to be heat stable, there are numerous reports that trypsin inhibitor, chymotrypsin inhibitor, and amylase inhibitor levels are reduced during fermentation (Chaven and Kadam 1989; Reddy and Pierson 1994).


Importance and Benefits of Fermented Cereals

The benefits of fermentation may include improvement in palatability and acceptability by developing improved flavours and textures; preservation through formation of acidulants, and antibacterial compounds; enrichment of nutritive content by microbial synthesis of essential nutrients and improving digestibility of protein and carbohydrates; removal of antinutrients, natural toxicants and mycotoxins.

The content and quality of cereal proteins may be improved by fermentation (Wang and Fields 1978; Cahvan et al. 1988). Natural fermentation of cereals increases their relative nutritive value and available lysine (Hamad and Fields 1979) (Fig. 4). Bacterial fermentations involving proteolytic activity are expected to increase the biological availability of essential amino acids more so than yeast fermentations which mainly degrade carbohydrates (Chaven and Kadam 1989). Starch and fiber tend to decrease during fermentation of cereals (El-Tinay et al. 1979). Although it would not be expected that fermentation would alter the mineral content of the product, the hydrolysis of chelating agents such as phytic acid during fermentation, improves the bioavailability of minerals. Changes in the vitamin content of cereals with fermentation vary according to the fermentation process, and the raw material used in the fermentation. B group vitamins generally show an increase on fermentation (Chavan et al. 1989) (Fig. 5). During the fermentation of maize or kaffircorn in the preparation of kaffir beer, thiamine levels are virtually unchanged, but riboflavin and niacin contents almost double (Steinkraus 1994).

www.thesproutarian.com

FERMENTED CEREALS

According to Steinkraus (1995), the traditional fermentation of foods serves several functions:

"1. Enrichment of the diet through development of a diversity of flavors, aromas, and textures in food substrates
2. Preservation of substantial amounts of food through lactic acid, alcoholic, acetic acid, and alkaline fermentations
3. Enrichment of food substrates biologically with protein, essential amino acids, essential fatty acids, and vitamins
4. Detoxification during food fermentation processing
5. A decrease in cooking times and fuel requirements"

Fermentation is risky, so it must be done carefully, BUT good bacteria in fermentation CAN help destroy bad bacteria.
Special mention should be made of the microbiological risk factors associated with fermented foods. The safety of fermented foods has been recently reviewed (Nout 1994). Cases of food-born infection, and intoxications due to microbial metabolites such as mycotoxins, ethyl carbamate, and biogenic amines have been reported in fermented foods. Major risk factors include the use of contaminated raw materials, lack of pasteurization, and use of poorly controlled fermentation conditions. On the other hand, non-toxigenic microorganisms can serve to antagonize pathogenic microorganisms and even degrade toxic substances such as mycotoxins (Nakazato et al. 1990) in fermented foods.


Using a rejuvalic starter is the best idea
Identifying and providing a practical means of using appropriate starter cultures is advantageous due to the competitive role of microorganisms and their metabolites in preventing growth and metabolism of unwanted microorganisms. A strong starter may reduce fermentation times, minimise dry matter losses, avoid contamination with pathogenic and toxigenic bacteria and molds, and minimize the risk of incidental microflora causing off-flavor, etc.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2013 12:55AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Antinutrient Reduction and Enhancement in Protein, Starch, and Mineral Availability in Fermented Flour of Finger Millet (a short link)
[pubs.acs.org]

Some of the best science studies are still to come.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2013 01:08AM by The Sproutarian Man.