l want to write in this thread by exposing much of the nonsense raw food leaders, websites, and youtubes talk about when discussing omega 3's and EPA/DHA fatty acids. It's well overdue that we expose the nonsense and provide some real science so us vegans don't get a false sense of security. Throughout this thread l will provide the scienceof fatty acids, provide possible solutions to the fatty acid problems with the vegan diet, and blow the phytoplankton and fish oil scams right out of the water. It is about time this is done because all the nonsense put on to the raw community has left us confused.

Relying on walnuts for omega 3’s may be just enough to get the body to manufacture borderline levels of EPA long chain fatty acids, but one is still at high risk of being on the low side. Eating avocado certainly isn’t the answer to getting enough omega 3. While eating greens provides an ideal ratio to build up omega 3’s, it is risky because HUGE amounts need to be eaten, and when we eat huge amounts of carefully selected greens we greatly increase the risk of consuming anti-nutrients like polyphenols in our diet which will further compete against our ability to get proper levels of EPA because things like amino acids (a biggie) and minerals can be greatly compromised. The problems of high levels of oxalic acid in poorly selected vegetables can also cause major problems. So if we refuse to supplement, what the heck can we do? It is no wonder that there are no recorded vegan cultures in history….it is an extremely tough gig, but fortunately it looks like vegans can still so things to get enough EPA without supplementing.

The most important thing we need to do is bring the omega 6’s – 3’s down to a ratio of 2:1 for ideal conversion for healthy people, as well as have good levels of amino acids, pyridoxine (vitamin b6), biotin (vitamin b7), calcium,copper, magnesium, and zinc to allow various enzymes to do their work effectively in converting fatty acids to EPA and DHA. But here lies another problem…vegans are often deficient in B6, zinc and possibly other of these nutrients. Another thing we need to do is not consume cold pressed oils high in omega 6’s (nearly all of them).

So what do we do?

1). Consume food with good amounts of amino acids
2). Consume foods where it is easy to get good levels of omega 3’s to get a balance of 1 part omega 3’s – 2 parts omega 6’s.
3). Consume foods high in b vitamins
4). Consume foods high in bioavailable magnesium, calcium and zinc with minimal anti nutrients.
5). Don’t regularly consume oils with high omega 6’s.

Just these five things bring in a whole new mountain of science and discussion.

First l will post the science link and post the most significant findings here. In following posts we can talk about solutions and provide much more science so we can't so easily ignore this serious issue.

Achieving optimal essential fatty acid status in vegetarians (vegans): current
knowledge and practical implications
[ajcn.nutrition.org]

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 02:13AM by The Sproutarian Man.

The highlights from the above link - general information and stuff related to vegans


General info
There are 2 EFAs, both polyunsaturated fats: LA (the parent
n_6 fatty acid) and ALA (the parent n_3 fatty acid). Humans are
able to convert LA and ALA to more physiologically active fatty
acids through a series of elongation and desaturation reactions
[LA to arachidonic acid (AA) and ALA to EPA and DHA]. The
resulting highly unsaturated fatty acids are necessary for cell
membrane function, the proper development and functioning of
the brain and nervous system, and the production of eicosanoids
(thromboxanes, leukotrienes, prostaglandins, and prostacyclins).
While conversion of LA to AA is typically very efficient, conversion
of ALA to EPA and DHA is much less so. In healthy individuals,
_5–10% of ALA is converted to EPA, and _2–5% to
DHA (8–10).


Not possible to get recommended intake of EPA
While there are no official recommendations
for vegetarians and vegans, it is not possible for
this population to achieve the NIHWorking Group’s proposed AIs
for EPA and DHA. Even with the use of DHA-enriched eggs, some
seaweed, and/or DHA supplements, the best vegetarians could do
is to meet the recommended intakes for DHA. Some experts suggest
that vegetarians (and others receiving no direct sources of EPA
and DHA) at least double the recommended intakes for ALA
(S Innis, A Simopoulos, and B Holub, personal communication,
2002). This would suggest an intake ofALA in the range of 1–2%.

The really important part1 - The solution - the ratio needed of omega 3's - 6's
The ratio of n_6 to n_3 fatty acids is often used to assess the
balance between EFA in the diet, although there is some controversy
as to its practical significance. For vegetarians and others
who consume little, if any, EPA and DHA, the n_6-to-n_3 ratio
is of greater relevance than for individuals who consume significant
daily sources of EPA and DHA. On the basis of the proposed AIs, the NIH suggests a ratio of 2:1–3:1 (14). One study found that a ratio of 4:1 allows for
adequate conversion to DHA in healthy vegetarians (20).
Another research group suggested that the optimal ratio to maximize
the conversion of ALA to DHA is 2.3:1 (21). Given the
rate of conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA, it has been suggested
that a safe and adequate ratio for the vegetarian and vegan
populations would be in the range of 2:1–4:1 (22). This can best
be achieved by increasing ALA in the diet and decreasing LA.


The fatty acid situation in various food eating groups
Vegans consume negligible amounts of EPA and DHA, while vegetarians consume
minimal EPA (< 5 mg/d) and varying amounts of DHA
depending on egg consumption (a source of DHA, averaging
< 33 mg/d) (7). Consumption of EPA and DHA in omnivores
varies according to fish and egg intake, with average intakes in
the 100–150-mg/d range. n_6 Intakes are significantly higher
in vegan and vegetarian populations than in omnivorous populations,
ranging from a low of about 5–7% of calories in omnivores
to a high of about 10–12% of calories in vegans. As a
result, the n_6-to-n_3 ratio is generally considered to be elevated
in vegans (< 14:1–20:1) and lactoovovegetarians
(< 10:1–16:1) compared with omnivores (< 10:1).
Because the consumption of long-chain n_3 fatty acids is
low in vegetarian populations and LA intakes are relatively
high, one would expect decreased levels of EPA and DHA in
body stores. Reports to date suggest that this is indeed the case
but that it is significantly more pronounced in vegans than in
vegetarians.


In 1978 Sanders et al (23) first noted that the
plasma and total erythrocyte lipid levels of vegans were significantly
decreased. EPA levels were only 12–15% and DHA
levels were 32–35% of those of nonvegetarians (23). Another
study found that vegan plasma EPA levels were only 22% of
those of omnivores and DHA levels were 38% of those of
omnivores.

The highlights from the above link - general information and stuff related to vegans...continued
The really important part 2 - Maximizing conversion of n_3 fatty acids

While conversion of EFAs to longer-chain fatty acids is, at least
in part, dependent on genetics, age, and overall health, several
dietary factors also have a significant impact on the conversion
process. First, it is important to ensure that the diet is nutritionally
adequate, as poorly designed diets can impair the conversion
process. Insufficient energy or protein decreases the activity of conversion
enzymes, as can deficiencies of pyridoxine, biotin, calcium,
copper, magnesium, and zinc (56, 57). Excessive intakes of trans
fatty acids can also depress conversion enzymes. In addition, alcohol
inhibits the activity of ?-5 and ?-6 desaturase and depletes tissues
of long-chain n_3 fatty acids (58). High n_6 fatty acid content
can have a profound effect on n_3 fatty acid conversion,
reducing it as much as 40% (59). To achieve
reduced n_6 intakes, oils rich in n_6 fatty acids should not be used
as primary cooking oils. Cooking oils with the greatest n_6 fatty
acid content include safflower oil (75% n_6), grapeseed oil (70%
n_6), sunflower oil (65% n_6), corn oil (57% n_6), cottonseed oil
(52% n_6), and soybean oil (51% n_6). Processed foods, convenience
foods, and snack foods also are significant contributors to n_6
intake; thus, their use should be moderate. n_6-Rich whole foods
such as sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds, walnuts,
wheat germ, and soy foods need not be avoided, as they tend to be
relatively minor contributors to overall n_6 intake. These foods also
provide a myriad of beneficial dietary components, including phytochemicals,
fiber, B vitamins, vitamin E, and trace minerals.
Finally, it is important to ensure that there are sufficient
amounts of ALA, which is necessary for the production of
EPA and DHA. Most healthy vegetarians would be well
advised to double their intake of ALA, providing ??1% of
energy from n_3 fatty acids or 1.1 g/1000 cal. For those with
increased needs or decreased capacity to convert, an intake
of 2% of energy or 2.2 g/1000 cal may be necessary.


The primary sources of EPA and DHA are fish and seafood.
Thus, for vegetarians, increasing consumption of these long-chain
n_3 fatty acids can be a challenge. For lactoovovegetarians, eggs
provide a reasonable amount of DHA (< 50 mg/egg) but very little
EPA. Most supermarkets also sell DHA-rich eggs, providing
2–3 times the DHA of conventional eggs. Eggs from chickens fed
flax generally provide 60–100 mg DHA/egg, while those from
chickens fed microalgae contain 100–150 mg DHA/egg.
The only plant sources of long-chain n_3 fatty acids are plants
of the sea—microalgae and seaweed. There is a great deal of confusion
about the EFA content of plants. While they are the original
sources of EPA and DHA (fish do not produce long-chain
n_3 fatty acids), most are not concentrated sources because of
their extremely low total fat content. An important exception is a
DHA-rich microalgae that provides 10–40% DHA by dry weight
and is currently available in supplement form. When supplementing
with a direct DHA source, 100–300 mg/d is recommended.
Blue-green algae (spirulina and Aphanizomenon flos-aquae) are
low in long-chain n_3 fatty acids. Spirulina is rich in
_-linolenic acid (GLA, n_6), while A. flos-aquae is more concentrated
in ALA. Though blue-green algae is not a significant
source of EPA or DHA, some research indicates that it has a very
high conversion rate in comparison to other plants (R Kushak et
al, unpublished observations, 1999). Macroalgae, otherwise
known as seaweed, is even lower in fat than most vegetables
(< 1–14% of calories from fat), although it does contain small
amounts of long-chain fatty acids. A 100-g serving provides, on
average, _100 mg EPA but little DHA. Seaweeds do not contribute
significantly to EPA intakes in the Western world but are
important sources where people use large quantities of seaweed
on a daily basis (eg, Japan and other parts of Asia). Thus, while
vegetarians can rely on eggs and/or microalgae supplements for
DHA, most consume little if any EPA. However, < 10–11% of
DHA is retroconverted to EPA; thus, if sufficient ALA and DHA
are consumed, total EPA production would be expected to be
adequate



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 02:08AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Sproutarian,
Is eating really that complex? Is there a more simple version of this information?

Yes, I was trying to puzzle this out. I think it says eat more eggs, algae and seaweed and less oils but am not sure.

Here are a couple of old posts from Jeff Novick...

[www.vegsource.com]
Re: You NEED some fat in your diet.
March 30, 2001 at 3:34 pm PST Author: Jeff N.

Yes, you need some fat in your diet, but it is not alot. That amount of fat you need is 1% of your calories from Omega 3s and 2% of our calories from omega 6s. Omega 9s are not an issue. This amount is easily met on a whole food natural diet with out any additional supplmental oils or foods. In fact 250 calories of romaine lettuce will meet ALL your essential fat needs.
Oils are not natural and not recommended. All vegetable oils have been shown to suprress the immune system and can also increase growth rate of certain cancers and tumors. We are NOT oil eaters. If you want oil, get it naturall from the nut, seed, or vegetable. Flax seed oil has been shown to increase the risk of certain cancers 300%.
Eat whole natural foods and stay away from oils and refined foods. ALL Oils are HIGHLY refined foods.
If taken supplemental oils resulted in an improvement in your health, it is a sign that you had a defecient diet. The answer is to fix your diet and NOT take highly refined processed oils.
[www.vegsource.com]


[www.vegsource.com]
You dont need to calculate all this. All foods have fat in them. Romaine lettuce is 12% fat as are strawberries.

To ensure that you are getting in enough of the essential omega 3 fatty acids, inlcude on of the following each day. 1 TB ground flax seed, or 1 oz walnuts, or 250-300 calories of dark green leafy veggies.
Jeff N.
[www.vegsource.com]


[www.living-foods.com]
Date: 03-07-01 09:17 Jeff N.
RE: How much fat do you need daily?

Going Fishin': More Q. & A's
Chef Jeff's Weekly Health Update
May 13, 1999

This is the final part to the questions I received in response
to health update "Going Fishin'?" on 5/6. It is very long and
addresses the issues of fish, fish oil, flaxseed, flaxseed oil,
omega-3s, omega-6s, EPA and DHA.

Q. Is there any nutritional benefit that you know of that we may
be getting from eating fish that we can't get from eating plant
foods? Can a vegan (all plant food) diet provide all the needed
nutrients.

A. Maybe. There is alot of study going on right now about
essential fatty acids. Essential fatty acids are a type of poly-
unsaturated fat (PUFA) that can only be derived from our diets,
and this is why they are called "essential". There are two of
these essential fatty acids:

an omega-6 fatty acid called linoleic acid (LA)
a "short chain" omega-3 fatty acid called alpha-linolenic acid
(ALA).
Unlike saturated fat, hydrogenated fat, and trans fats, these
fats have several beneficial roles in our body.
These include:

They protect against heart disease by reducing blood clotting,
lowering triglycerides and cause vasodilation;
They reduce inflammation;
They enhance immune function and play protective role against
certain cancers;
They are necessary for the formation of healthy cell membranes
and the proper development of the brain & nervous system.
The omega-6 fatty acid (LA) is abundant in our food supply and
is found in fruits, vegetables, legumes, whole grains, and
vegetable oils. The omega-3 fatty acid (ALA) is not as abundant
in our food supply but can be found in fish, flax seeds and
walnuts.
As most of us get an abundance of the omega-6 fatty acid (LA) in
our diets, the main problem right now seems to be in getting in
enough of the omega-3's fatty acid (ALA). There is no
established recommend daily intake yet, but current estimates
range from .5 gram to 2 grams per day.

(UPDATE: Latest recommendations are now that we need only 1% of our calories to come from Omega 3s and 2% to come from Omega 6s)

Not only is getting in enough of each essential fat important to our health, so is the ratio of one to the other (LA:ALA) [Omega 6:Omega 3] also very important. While there is no consensus on what the ideal ratio of LA:ALA is, expert recommendations for the ratio run from 1:1 to 10:1 (LA:ALA) with 4:1 being ideal. It has been estimated that the early human diet had a ratio of ~1:1.

Currently, in the US, the ratio is around 14:1 to 20:1, which is
even way above the high end estimates. Other data from the World
Health Organization (WHO) shows that of the current intake of
PUFAs, 89% is LA and only 9% is ALA, Clearly, the balance is way
off, and correcting the LA:ALA ratio becomes an important issue
also. (The other 2% is EPA and DHA which we shall discuss
shortly).

Foods that are high in Omega 3 fatty acids (including the amount
in grams per 3.5 oz serving) are:

Legumes

Soy Beans 2.1
Beans .5
Nuts & Seeds (per 1 oz serving)

Nuts .1
Walnuts 1.9
Flax Seeds 5.5
Vegetables

Broccoli .2
Leafy Greens .1
Fish

Mackerel 2.6
Salmon 1.3
Tuna .5
As you can see from the above information, there are certain
plant foods that are high in the essential omega-3 fatty acid
(ALA), and so theoretically, a well planned unrefined,
unprocessed whole-food plant-based (or plant-exclusive) diet
should be able to provide us with the estimated needed amount.

However, there is another concern.

As I mentioned, ALA is a "short chain" omega-3 fatty acid. There
are two "longer chain" Omega-3 fatty acids called EPA
(eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexanoic acid). These
fatty acids appear to have significant beneficial cardiovascular
effects including reduction of triglycerides, and antiarrhythmic
(reduce irregular heart rhythms) and antithrombotic (reduce
blood clotting) actions. Studies have shown some of these
benefits to be quite significant. Other possible benefits also
include a decrease in VLDL, a decrease in blood pressure, and an
increase in HDL.

While there are no formal recommendations for intake of EPA and
DHA, many experts believe that a minimum intake should be around
500-800 mgs per day. The British Nutrition Foundation recommends
1-2 grams of DHA/EPA. Current estimates on US intake is about
150 mgs per day.

There are two sources of EPA and DHA. The first is that we can
synthesize both EPA and DHA ourselves from the "short chain"
omega-3 fatty acid ALA "if" we get in enough on the "short
chain" omega-3 fatty acid, ALA. (Since we can make them
ourselves, these "longer chain" omega 3 fatty acids are not
considered to be "essential". However, this conversion of the
short chain fatty acids to the longer chain fatty acids is not a
very efficient process and it is estimated that we can convert
only about 10% of the "short chain" fatty acid, ALA to the "long
chain" fatty acids, EPA and DHA.

Several things can also interfere with this conversion. These
include a high intake of saturated fat, trans fat, hydrogenated
fat, cholesterol, and alcohol. Vegetable oils like cottonseed,
corn, soy, safflower, and sunflower, that are high in the
omega-6 (LA) polyunsaturated fatty acid can also interfere with
this conversion. These fats and oils all "compete with" or
"depress" the enzymes necessary to make the conversion from ALA
to EPA and DHA. Also, people with certain metabolic diseases
like diabetes may also have problems converting ALA to EPA and
DHA.

Right now in the US, the majority of our fat intake (~75-80%)
comes from saturated fat, hydrogenated fats, trans fats, and
vegetable oils high in LA. As I said earlier, 89% of the current
PUFA intake is LA and only 9% is ALA. The other 2% is EPA and
DHA. So again, we may have a real concern here.

If someone was to eliminate and/or dramatically reduce all the
saturated fat, hydrogenated fat, trans fat, and vegetable oils
high in LA, and also consume a whole food unprocessed, unrefined
plant based diet, that included large amounts of dark green
leafy vegetables, with some flax seed, walnuts, and/or soy, then
theoretically, it is possible for them to correct their LA:ALA
ratio, meet their ALA requirements and be able to convert enough
ALA to EPA and DHA to meet all their needs this way. The only
problem is, we don't have any "large" groups of people who eat
this way that we can study over a long period of time to see if
this is actually true.

There have been some studies on this issue. Two studies were
done on vegetarians with one of them being done on vegans (or
pure vegetarians). Both studies found lower blood levels of EPA
and DHA in the vegetarians and vegans. The "semi"-vegetarians
(vegetarians who consumed fish) had the highest levels of EPA
and DHA (when compared to vegans, lacto-ovo-vegetarians, and
omnivores). However, two other studies have suggested that this
""lower blood level" may be enough to meet the needs of most
"healthy" people.

The second source of EPA and DHA is fish. Fish have an excellent
ability to convert the ALA that they get from the sea vegetables
and algae that they eat to EPA and DHA. While all fish contain
EPA and DHA, the fatty fish are the best source. Salmon,
Mackerel, Sardines, Herring, and Fatty Tuna, have about
1200-1500 mgs per serving. Lean fish, like Sole, Cod, and
Flounder have much less, containing under 200 mgs per serving.

So, based on the above information, one would need to consume
about one to two fatty fish servings per week. Notice, that this
recommendation is consistent with the populations studies I
mentioned in the original article yesterday.

So, based on all of the above, my current recommendation at the
ctr to my student/pts are:

Dramatically reduce and/or eliminate:
- all vegetable oils high in LA (Corn, Safflower, Sunflower, and
Cottonseed Oil);
- all hydrogenated fats (margarine, shortening, and many
packaged and processed foods);
- all saturated fats (meat, chicken, dairy, eggs, some packaged
products, butter, chocolate, coconut, palm oil, palm kernel oil
and other animal fat);
Consume a whole-food unprocessed, unrefined plant based (or
plant exclusive) diet that includes large amounts of fresh dark
green leafy vegetables, whole grains, starchy vegetables,
legumes, and fruit.
Include 1-2 Tb of fresh ground flax seed per day.
If including any refined vegetable oil, limit the intake to 1-2
Tb per day and choose either olive oil or canola oil. These two
oils are low in the omega-6 PUFA LA, and high in the
mono-unsaturated fatty acids (MUFA).
If desired, include 1-2 servings of soy products a day.
If desired, include 1-2 servings of fatty fish per week.
So, to answer the original question, is there any nutrient found
in fish that we can't get from plants? Not in theory.
Vegan/vegetarians have no "direct" source of EPA and DHA, but if
a vegan/vegetarian was to follow the above recommendations, No.
1- 5, (eliminating the items in number 1), then they should be
able to meet both their ALA needs and their EPA and DHA needs.
However, I wish I could say that most vegetarians and vegans I
have met or counseled in the last 16-25 years live this way, but
unfortunately they don't. Many eat diets that are high in
refined and processed foods including hydrogenated oils, refined
and processed grains/carbohydrates, vegetarian junk food, and
oils high in LA. They also don't include enough vegetables
(especially the dark green leafy ones) & fresh fruits.
Therefore, these vegetarians/vegans may have a problem meeting
their ALA, EPA and DHA needs, along with a host of other health
problems from their poor diets.

Q. What about Fish Oil Supplements?

A. I do not recommend fish oil supplements for several reasons.
While they are high in EPA and DPA, they are also a very
concentrated source of calories (120 calories per tablespoon).
Some of the recommended dosages out there contain 200 or more
calories.

In small amounts they can cause nausea, diarrhea, belching, and
bad breath. In larger amounts they can worsen blood sugar
control, and increase the risk of hemorrhage. Additionally they
may contain pesticides, contaminants & cholesterol. Therefore, I
would rather see someone include a serving (or two) of fatty
fish occasionally then to rely of fish oil supplements.

Note: Technology has now made it possible for us to obtain omega
3 fats from marine micro-algae, a non fish source of EPA and
DHA. So, if someone chose not to eat fish, and was concerned
about their levels of EPA and DHA, then they may want to
consider this supplement. The supplement (sold under the
trademark Neuromins) is available for adults; however, it is
currently only sold in gel caps.


Q. What about flaxseed Oil and/or flax seed oil supplements?

A. I do not recommend the use of flaxseed oil or flaxseed oil
supplements. Like all oils, flaxseed oil is a concentrated
source of calories. Also, there are other benefits to consuming
the whole flaxseed that would not be available in the oil. One
of these is a type of fiber found in flaxseeds called lignans.
Lignans have been shown to have anticancer effects and are
associated with a significant reduced risk of breast cancer.
Additionally, flaxseeds are a good sources of iron, zinc,
calcium, protein, potassium, magnesium, vitamin E and folate.
These important nutrients play many beneficial roles in health
maintenance and disease prevention. Flaxseed oil is pure fat and
virtually void of all or most of these nutrients (except for
vitamin E).

UPDATE: "...Research from Charles Myers, MD, at the University of Virginia
Medical School in Charlottesville showed that flax seed oil causes a
300% increase in the growth of prostate cancer cells. He said, 'It is
the most powerful stimulus we know of for prostate cancer cells.'"

Q. What about Soy and Walnut Oil?

A. Soy and walnut oils are high in LA but they also have a
higher content of ALA then corn, safflower, sunflower, and
cottonseed oil. So, while their higher ALA content may partially
compensate for their high LA content, they are still not your
best choice if choosing a vegetable oil. I would still recommend
olive or canola oil over walnut or soy oil, if you were to want
to include some oil in your diet. Additionally, regardless of
which oil you do choose, keep the total amount to a minimum,
probably no more then 1-2 TB per day. And when choosing olive
oil, I would look for an imported cold pressed extra virgin one.

Some final thoughts on whether a pure vegetarian/vegan diet can
be nutritionally adequate......

I remember many years ago when vegans were told that they
couldn't get enough protein (and all the essential amino acids)
from plant foods, and in order to do this, they must follow some
complicated protein complementing rules at each and every meal.
Eventually this turned out not to be true and that plant foods
were adequate sources of protein (containing all the essential
amino acids) and if one consumed enough calories, ate a variety
of foods, and limited refined junk food they would be fine.

However, there was some truth in this, as certain plant foods do
have "limiting" amino acids, or ones that they are low in. And,
if a vegan didn't eat a variety of whole foods, consume enough
calories, and limit processed and junk food, then there is a
slight chance that they could possibly run into a problem
long-term.

Then the issue of B12 came along. B12 is only synthesized by
microorganisms, and animals (and animal products) are a rich
source of B12. If vegans didn't consume any animal products it
was said that they would run into a B12 deficiency which could
cause irreversible nerve damage.

The thought that sea vegetables and algae were a good source
became very popular, but then it turned out that they contained
B12 analogues, and not only were then not useable, but they
could interfere with real B12 absorption.

It was also realized that humans, like most animals, could
synthesize B12 in their own GI system. But the question was,
could it be enough to meet their needs. There are some studies
that show that in some other countries (like Iran) this may be
possible. But studies in this country have consistently shown
vegans to have low levels. Part of this has to do with our
"sterile" food supply which eliminated the B12 producing
bacteria.

In my own professional experience I have seen several vegans
with very low B12 levels. B12 supplements from plant sources are
available, and so there is a "vegan" solution to the "problem".

Vitamin D is not available in plant foods, but we can easily
synthesize enough Vitamin D from the sun so this is not an
issue.

And now the issue of EPA and DHA are here. Will this turn out to
be a real issue or not, only time will tell. It is possible on a
well planned healthy vegan diet to consume enough ALA to meet
all your ALA and EPA and DHA needs. But some attention must be
paid to the planning of the diet. . And if not, it seems like
now there is a "vegan" solution.... EPA and DHA derived from sea
vegetables and microalgae.

Not just any vegan or vegetarian diet is a healthy diet (Potato
chips and French fries are vegan) Unfortunately many vegans and
vegetarians think that this is so and have a false sense of
security about their health Being a vegan or vegetarian does not
automatically guarantee health. I have seen/met many people who
include small amounts of animal products in their diets who have
much healthier diets then many of the vegetarians/vegans out
there.

Remember, Your "Health" Is Your Greatest Wealth!

In Health,
Chef Jeff
[www.living-foods.com]

Peace and Love..........John

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I was trying to puzzle this out. I think it
> says eat more eggs,
Eggs are not the answer either, but they do have some things in them which can help.


>algae and seaweed
These can help because they have some small amounts of EPA and othger factors which easily convert to EPA.


THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> BTW, chia and flax are gelatinous much like tomato
> seeds are, and tomato seeds are often fermented
> before planting to get the gel off the seeds. But
> the way it is often fermented would be unsanitary
> for eating probably. Plus it wouldn't yield exact
> amounts.

Yes, we need to be more careful when fermenting sprouted gel seeds because things can go downhill fast. Definitely need to ferment them for a shorter time and try to dry and crush them if possible.


Thanks John for the post above. l'll study it more later. Interesting how he talks about romain lettuce meeting requirements. Still, l don't think he has hit the nail on the head with everything. He talks about certain foods being good sources of nutrients, but he doesn't talk about bio-availability of nutrients from foods (very few raw fooders ever do).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2013 10:10PM by The Sproutarian Man.

Purslane is a great source of omega 3's. I have seen perilla seed oil being sold somewhere as a good source of omega 3s. In korea they eat the leaves, I have had it in kimchi.

I'm going to try harvesting some purslane seeds to plant next year. It seems to grow in the worst places, cracks in parking lot pavement and such. I'm not sure it isn't sucking up all sorts of yuck in those locations, not sure about eating it...

coco,

I used to grow purslane in troughs--like for window boxes--on a bench in my backyard. It can be grown like an herb this way, and is prolific. Just in case, you know, the one you pick from cracks in the sidewalk proves inedible ; )


The Sproutarian Man and John Rose,

Lots of interesting things to think about; I try to limit fresh flax to only a few times a week because of its goitrogenic properties. Need to find an alternative to it, and this info will prompt me to keep searching. Thanks!

Why not chia Tam? I like those little seeds. Or hemp...

I was at a lavender farm yesterday and there was purslane going to seed in their parking lot, I was so tempted to scoop it up. Think I'm gonna wait though, I can find it further from the road at our old location, we'll be there on the weekend for a bit so I'll search it out then .

THeStOrm,

If a food makes me tired, and consistently, I assume this is a sensitivity or the begining stages of allergy, and I avoid that food. I don't think chia and flax have cyanide, and as far as I know, only flax is goitrogenic. If you tolerate flax well, go with that!

There is lots of things which need to be talked about in this topic, but l will get back to all things next week.

Supplementation of Milled Chia Seeds Increases Plasma ALA and EPA in Postmenopausal Women
[link.springer.com]

A reason why consuming flax seeds and flax oil may not be the answer to getting good omega 3's and EPA's.


Bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid in subjects after ingestion of three different forms of flaxseed.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Milled flax is superior, but l think sprouted/fermented flax is probably much better.

l've got heaps of stuff to say in this thread and will get back to John Rose's links and dissect what Jeff Novick has to say and make comment on it.

A BIG boy that contributes to EPA and DHA production - fermented chia seed sprouts


But even better would be to dry the sprouts, crush them and then ferment them. As good as it gets.

Purslane weeds is also a good one to include, but we need to tame the savage beast within it...the anti nutrients, in particular, oxalic acid
[www.scielo.cl]

Sorry `banana who' l know you don't like oxalic acid being discussed but it is an important subject to discuss. Vegans have badly failed over the years, but now we have some decent science, so we need to help ourselves and use it to try and become successful at this diet.

l'll get back to this very important topic later.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2013 11:10PM by The Sproutarian Man.

I read this highly scientific based thread and I fell hopeless -

Has eating to be so complicated? Could we just go by our senses, our body feeling?

For example, if a food tastes good in its natural, unprocessed and untransformed state, then it would be appropriated to be eaten? - if we have to put seasoning on it, salt, oil so we can digest it then we should think twice.

Why should we try to transform unpleasant food into palatable stuff through adding, dehydrating, sweetening...

So the edible food would fall into the following categories:

fruits (whatever please and agree to us, preferably local)
roots and vegetables (whatever please and agree to us, preferably local)
nuts and seeds (hydrated before eating)
seaweeds, algae (for those living near the sea)
sprouts (whatever please and agree to us, for winter time)
fermented food (like sauerkraut, etc., involving minimal transformation)
dry fruits, seeds, nuts (for winter time mostly, hydrated before eating)

No oils, salt, seasoning, frozen foods, yeast (Engevita, etc.), maple syrup, pills, supplements, etc., etc. Only fresh living food and nothing else.

Could it be bearable and realistic?

Love and blessings
Cynthia

cynthia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I read this highly scientific based thread and I
> fell hopeless -
>
> Has eating to be so complicated? Could we just go
> by our senses, our body feeling?
>
> For example, if a food tastes good in its natural,
> unprocessed and untransformed state, then it would
> be appropriated to be eaten? - if we have to put
> seasoning on it, salt, oil so we can digest it
> then we should think twice.
>
> Why should we try to transform unpleasant food
> into palatable stuff through adding, dehydrating,
> sweetening...
>
> So the edible food would fall into the following
> categories:
>
> fruits (whatever please and agree to us,
> preferably local)
> roots and vegetables (whatever please and agree to
> us, preferably local)
> nuts and seeds (hydrated before eating)
> seaweeds, algae (for those living near the sea)
> sprouts (whatever please and agree to us, for
> winter time)
> fermented food (like sauerkraut, etc., involving
> minimal transformation)
> dry fruits, seeds, nuts (for winter time mostly,
> hydrated before eating)
>
> No oils, salt, seasoning, frozen foods, yeast
> (Engevita, etc.), maple syrup, pills, supplements,
> etc., etc. Only fresh living food and nothing
> else.
>
> Could it be bearable and realistic?
>
> Love and blessings
> Cynthia

l was thinking about this same issue yesterday, and here are some of my thoughts. There do appear to be some people who have eaten a simple natural hygeine diet of largely fruits and vegetables over a 15 year period or more who do appear to be doing o.k. John Kohler seems one of the few who have appeared to manage such a diet. One of his strengths is that he eats FRESH, and he is highly cleansed, and he probably is getting a good balance of omega 3's - 6's because he eats lots of fruit and vegetables with adequate ratios, and he seems to keep a good healthy weight. But at the same time, he wouldn't be digesting much of the stuff he eats - it doesn't matter if it's green juices...there are certain things in the raw diet that makes proteins, carbs, fatty acids, vitamins and minerals hard to absorb, + diets high in fiber have been reported to cause problems over a long term period. Does he fast to to clean his body from the build-ups that are caused from indigestion from the greens? Then again, maybe the distilled water from the greens are enough to clean the body of the undigested material, but not so says Dr Jubb. It will be interesting to see how John goes after 30 years on such a diet.

Personally l strongly feel that human beings are not what they once were. We are a greatly weakened species, we live in a highly polluted world, we were born to sick parents, our DNA is greatly weakened, our pineal glands are closed, our bacteria levels are compromised, and we are eating far too much, and we are not able to produce many nutrients as hormones as we probably once did in a much more natural age in time.

l feel once that we may have been fruitarian and survived on a small amount of fresh fruit, so the complex sugars in fruits wasn't abused, and tannins weren't much of a problem as now because all fruit was fresh. But evenstill, mankind wasn't in perfection because he stepped out of the `so called' garden of eden' to taste the forbidden fruits and it's anti nutrients that caused less than optimal digestion. And before we knew it we were getting into nuts, seeds and vegetables and sprouts and the higher levels of anti nutrients that come with those foods. I feel the fabled `garden of eden' was a test for mankind like everything is...it gave us a choice and that's why we were given a stomach. And the more l read the science of food and become increasingly enlightened, the more l believe that we were indeed breatharian.

When you read about how all food is not properly digested because of anti nutrients, and when you read that various men have been able to synthesise various nutrients and contradict science it does make one think that we are not a shadow of ourselves and have truely taken a poor path, and it does make one think that it is possible we were once breatharians.

These days we are in lots of trouble because we have fallen so far that most people don't even eat fresh foods, and to make it worse, we live in highly stressed times and most of us do need to eat more than just fruit, and we need to eat quite a lot of food. Here is the problem. We are eating a lot, we are eating high anti nutrient food, high fiber foods with course fibers, and we are eating non fresh foods. We are not even close to nature or healthg. The only solution l have been able to work out is sprouting and fermenting, especially those concentrated foods like fermented sprouted seeds and fermented sea weeds to boost the nutrition levels. But even if you want to avoid sprouts, at least grow your own vegetables and ferment them or have a green drink in a fermented water solution to try and get maximum absorption.

Mankind are in big trouble and we need to be eating fresh and fermenting at a very minimum because the foods we eat are less than optimal. When you ferment you feel the difference in digestion and the food tastes much better. So, lets be armed with some good tools of food prepartion and make the diet as healthy as possible.

Lots of cultures prepare fermented foods:

Is Fermenting Grains Traditional?
[www.thenourishinggourmet.com]

A long article
FERMENTED CEREALS.
A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE
[www.fao.org]

In this day and age we need to help ourselves as much as possible. I am just an ordinary bloke, but l eat fresh and ferment my foods, and l enjoy my food. It's not that hard.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2013 10:58PM by The Sproutarian Man.

well - I think too more and more about breatharianism as the way humans with purpose should go

obviously non-absorption or bad absorption of food because of anti-nutrients or others reasons like weakness of bodily organs, negative emotions, etc. is a problem.

so, the ideal is there and I see it (see previous post) but I agree we have to do something more (cleansing, fasting, ...) to get where we want to be. Sages say We are already there, but we have to admit we need to purify ourselves to be aware of it.


blessings and love
Cynthia

Just a question...if somehow someone proved to you that humans need to eat shells, crustaceans, squid and octopus - I said if they CONVINCED you scientifically - would you? I think that the morals of a vegan would not let them eat animal based food EVEN if it is natural and healthy for them. Vegans simply believe in being more moral if they don't eat animals. And, even if it is a matter of health, a lot of vegans and vegetarians would not add any kind of sea food or eggs or similar to their diet.

I am not sure if this is a right way to go. Create a moral dogma and follow it...

I am 100% sure that we need to eat a lot of fruit. Maybe some veggies too. But I am also sure that we need a little bit of other stuff. Simply because we do. And that 'other stuff' can also be raw. It should be. My goal is to stay raw (natural) as much as I can. No other goals. You can't improve on God said one smart lady doctor. We need to be true to ourselves, not to a dogma.

That's if you believe in god, and if you do, then god meant us to eat our food freshly picked in nutrient rich soil. Nothing is natural anymore so to pretend that by eating raw foods we are eating naturally is just fooling ourselves.That doesn't mean we go to the other extreme and eat a 100% junk food diet and use that as an argument.

I sometimes liken the eating of raw fruits and raw and cooked vegies to the bricks in building a house. By volume and weight the bricks make up over 90%, but without the cement to hold the bricks together the whole thing falls apart. For a lot of people - for whatever reason -, the 10% other than the fruit and vegies ( whatever it is ) is the cement that holds their bodies together.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2013 07:55AM by BJ.

" Flax seed oil has been shown to increase the risk of certain cancers 300%."


but where he has read this information?
the only sources of high quality of omega 3 are chia seeds, flax seeds and flax oil. in the my salads i use flax oil...

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The most important thing we need to do is bring
> the omega 6’s – 3’s down to a ratio of 2:1
> for ideal conversion for healthy people, as well
> as have good levels of amino acids, pyridoxine
> (vitamin b6), biotin (vitamin b7), calcium,copper,
> magnesium, and zinc to allow various enzymes to do
> their work effectively in converting fatty acids
> to EPA and DHA.

And here lies another problem with many plant diets, according to this peer reviewed science many vegans wouldn't be getting an adequate conversion to EPA/DHA no matter how much ALA (omega 3) they are injesting. This could well be the case because many would not getting enough of the above nutrients, and it is highly likely caused by the excess copper intake which would lower zinc absorption. It doesn't matter if you are getting enough nutrient in your diet, the question is...what are you absorbing??? And if you are on a natural hygiene diet you would be at greater risk imo (actually, l am convinced of that), and this might explain why some older hygienists appear spacey and vague.

And there is even a study that shows people who supplemented with flax oil, baked flax and milled flax still didn't get the benefit of producing EPA. This tells us that there is more to the story than increasing omega 3's. Best to consume good balanced amounts of the mentioned nutrients (in quote above), but to do that we need to be aware of roughly how much we are absorbing and be aware of the impact of anti-nutrients so we can come up with an effective strategy to remedy the situation. How many raw food leaders talk about these things? None! But it is about time they did.

Bioavailability of alpha-linolenic acid in subjects after ingestion of three different forms of flaxseed

Austria JA, Richard MN, Chahine MN, Edel AL, Malcolmson LJ, Dupasquier CM, Pierce GN

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 04:09AM by The Sproutarian Man.

For those of you who can't convert omega 3s to DHA, there are vegan algae based DHA supplements. Myself, I like to use a teaspoon of ground chia seeds in my salad dressing.

Do we have to be Vegan?

The cow is not.

It is like trying to fly to the moon bare hands



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 08:19AM by CommonSenseRaw.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For those of you who can't convert omega 3s to
> DHA, there are vegan algae based DHA supplements.
> Myself, I like to use a teaspoon of ground chia
> seeds in my salad dressing.

Yes, an EPA/DHA supplement could help. See, that's the thing with the vegan diet, it does look like various supplements need to be taken. The vegan diet is also high in soluable copper but low in soluable zinc and the highly regarded Dr Lawence Wilson is well qualitified to talk about the problems associated with this in clinical research. So it looks like we do have to address these inbalances, because if we don't it looks like serious problems can rear there head in the long term. So what do we do? There could be a couple of things we can do. If we can solve the tannin binding problem by taking bacterial supplements, maybe this could help break down tannin binding which would make zinc much more bioavailable, and if this is the case we could use chlorella to make the zinc absorption much better, and increased zinc levels will keep copper levels more in check. BUT...this is not the only thing that needs to be done to make this happen, folks on sprouted diets and eaters of various vegetables/nuts/seeds would also need to be taking a digestive enzyme supplement to break down the phytic acid IP5- 6's to at least 90% along with other various carbohydrates and protein inhibitors. But the big question is, will the bacterial supplement break down the tannins and various anti nutrients like oxalic acid in the stomach?...can't be sure, still research needs to be done and people to ask to be certain. If you don't take the chlorella and have various sprouts with a higher ratio of zinc - copper (eg, chlorella and lentils), then even a zinc supplement may be neccessary to address the copper excess.

See, this is where things get crazy. Word is that Dr Ann Wigmore even recommended mainly cooked food near the end of her life. l can see why she could say this, but did she have knowldge of the power of enzyme and bacterial supplements back in her day?...probably not...probably didn't have enough good science available back then. I think times have moved on and that we can be raw vegans in the long term, but we need to supplement. Now, if these bacterial supplements do break down tannins and various other anti nutrients we could be in the clear, but that will not neccessarily apply to all diets...some diets will probably need supplemental zinc also. This goes on and on, it's crazy.

l am determined to get to the bottom of this. Many pieces in the puzzle have been solved, but the question on what bacterial supplements actualy do in the stomach environment is a big missing piece, but l feel the answer to this question is not far away.

All diets are different, but it looks like the sprout diet could potentially require the following supplements:

* B12
* digestive enzymes
* bacterial based supplement
* zinc (possibly)
* chlorella
* vitamin D (if you live in certain areas and don't get sun exposure, and possibly if you shower each day)

It's amazing how tannin binds the zinc in foods dramatically! Spirulina is 5 times higher in tannin than chlorella, but even at lower levels the tannin binds significantly with zinc and iron in foods, so we can't get the real benefit of the zinc and iron in the algaes until we are able to break down those tannins. DHA, there are vegan algae based DHA supplements.

These will be talked about in great detail with science and clinical research to back up the statements. It's important not to speculate....got to give some hard facts so we know the score.

I am none to thrilled about the thought of taking all these supplements, but if you don't eat the meat then our job is much much harder to get the important nutrients often lacking in vegan diets. Some scientists have gone as far to say that the zinc and iron in vegan foods is inorganic and that's why the assorption is so low....the vegan foods are supposed to lack certain enzyme functions that convert these inorganic zinc/iron to organic form, but it does look like we can convert those minerals when we introduce bacterial based enzymes, BUT, will a bacterial supplement do tjhis in the stomach before binding occurs and lowers bioavailability?

WE need to talk about this ugly stuff so we can have a rosey raw future.

www.thesproutarian.com