Oh, and did you try some fresh raw dressings ideas? They are yummy! Some basic examples:
* tahini/macademias and oranges/lemon juice/strawberries


Gosia


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I was giving my rats fruit and greens and they eat the greens too, they like it very much

Mine too. My rats love having banana smoothie in the morning and greens in the evening. They go outside their little house, jump on the second floor of their aquarium (no water, mind you) and wait until they get what they want. Their expectation is written on their faces.

Gosia


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do you guys ^^ let your rats sometimes walk around outside? im having inner conflicts about pets. i think the idea of a cage is pure evil, but many domesticated animals would die if let free now, so i understand there are positive and negative qualities.

im hoping you sometimes play with your rats outside and let them run around in the wild like their ancestors and let them nibble on things out in the fresh air and just be.. make things better for them just some friendly advice

Don't worry, we do it every day!

Gosia


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I don't eat vinegar alone, or fats alone, or fruit juices alone, or any green leaves alone or anything like that. But I do occasionally eat a fruit by itself, if I am sufficiently hungry.

Everything tastes better to me when I include a wide variety in the same dish: not just one fruit but many, not just one type of leaf but many, not just leaves but other vegetables and nonsweet fruit, occasionally adding a sweet fruit in the mix or regularly a fermented fruit (red wine vinegar). The best salads contain a mix of many tastes: bitter, sweet, pungent, salty, spicy, etc.

Including a wide variety of foods has been shown to increase antioxidant defenses and to increase the chances of meeting targeted needs for vitamins and minerals. It is not purely good, though, as it has also been shown that people tend to eat more when they have a wide variety on their plates. I find this helpful for consuming more of my kcals from salads however.

argula,

While having variety is important in the diet, it is not necessary to have variety within a single meal. In a given year, for a person eating 3 meals a day, there are 1095 meals. If that person ate one one food at each meal, but something different each time, there would be quite a bit of variety, a thousand different foods!

Over a 10 year period, this could be ten thousand different foods! So it is quite easy to achieve variety and diversity without resorting to mixing multiple foods in one meal.

Also, a person could mix 10 ingredients in one meal, but eat the same meal because they were so satisfied with their variety over a year. This means that there were only 10 different foods eaten that year. As you can see, eating more variety in a single meal does not guarantee more variety over the course of time.

By the way, those item that you mentioned that can't really be eaten alone: the vinegar, overt fats, plus ones that you didn't mention, say like spices and condiments. If there were omitted from the diet, one's health would improve.

I don't care much about intelectual arguments. To me, the meal of mangoes that I just have had this morning is the most satisfying meal I could have had. I would not like mixing my mangoes with anything. In general, I do not like mixing my fruit. I don't mind mixing the salads, but fruit is the best for me mono. I feel best eating like this. Of course, things are changing and I am progressing. The idea of eating my lettuces mono becomes more and more appealing. Mono-eating seems to me the most natural way of eating.

Gosia


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Gosia, I am just so jealous that mangoes are still in season for you!!! I miss them so much!

I can understand, Yogamama. Being on the opposite sides of the globes means different fruit available. Just you wait till it's winter where I am, and I will be jealous then! I am often jealous of those living in tropics and having yummy fruit all year round. I feel lucky that I can get mangoes. My favouite navel oranges seem to be disappearing. And bananas are still too expensive, but they are getting cheaper. I look forward to being able to gorge on them again.

Yummy munching,
Gosia.


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Gosia: I am not sure what you mean by intellectual arguements. Do you mean that you are against anything that can be verified by experiment?

Bryan: Can you provide reasonable assurance that health improves by omission of the food items you listed? If so, please provide it. Anecdotes don't count. Also, I agree that 1095 completely different monomeals would be more protective than 30 to 100 or so. But most people don't have access to that many different types of fruit. I think it would be safe to say that most people eat the same 10 or so genetically diverse fruits on a regular basis and maybe another 30 occasionally, depending on the season, location, and price. If anyone here eats 1100 genetically and nutritionally diverse mono fruit meals in one year I would like to take a closer look at their diets. I have studied the fruit taxonomy and it's very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve anywhere near the level of possible variety that you state. Also there is no fruit that I know of that is a good source of zinc, for example, and we need most nutrients in adequate intakes on a regular basis, i.e. adequate intakes every day is more protective than a lot in one day and very little 6 days per week.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2006 03:29AM by arugula.

Argula ,
I dont know where you are but I think if you ate the fruits that are in season most of the year you can find a good variety.
Right know my biggest problem is finding ripe bananas and waiting for them to ripen because it takes longer to ripen when cooler when I buy them in bunches green off the stalk or from the backyard but in the market I can buy sapodillas that are in season and other fruits without eating bananas last winter I think I ate bananas maybe a half dozen times. I have 20 papayas I have to eat in the next few days grabbed 4 from the tree yesterday and tangerines and guavas are all over the market as is the green garland crysantheaum (I dont know if i spelled it correct) but it has a lot of zinc and taste great if you really are worried about lacking zinc chayotes also are good for zinc .

But to me I think the whole idea of the RDA is out of balance for me I function best when I have foods high in Potassium,water natural sugar and Vits A,C and dont worry about some argument about b12 or protien and fats.

I love my sweet juicy fruit.

Cherimoya

Love Peace and Happiness,

hi arugula!

I was wondering if you could direct me to any information regarding the idea that adequate intakes every day is more protective than a lot in one day. I ask not because I disagree with you; I am curious about the subject and wouldn't mind looking it up somewhere on the internet, if you know of a place.

Thanks for you time

Arugula: My body's senses are my primary way of deciding what to put in my mouth.

Sincerely,
Gosia


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ThomasLantern, your best sources for dietary info are going to be pubmed and the national academies press DRI books.

reduced oxidative stress
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

increases probability of meeting rdas
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

dietary dris and how they were developed, here are a few:
[www.nap.edu]
[www.nap.edu]
[www.nap.edu]
[www.nap.edu]

If you are really interested, you can read all the chapters and see how the recommended intakes were developed. There is an extensive reference list and very strong reasoning behind the recommendations for each nutrient. Many thousands of researchers: physicians, nutritionists, food scientists, grad students, etc. toiled over these with very great effort, long hours, and in many cases, minimal pay. I am quite certain they would object to being told in so many words that their work was meaningless. It boggles the mind how anyone could come up with such a conclusion.

Your efforts have not gone unnoticed. Again you have my thanks.

My before and after:



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interesting diagram! If only I understood it.... haha

Oh, those mathematicians, they assume that what's obvious to them, will be obvious to others. Apparently they are the most autistic people on the autism spectrum. Which makes senes considering that maths research is pretty much an autistic-type of activity. I am learning though to see beyond. Thanks for making your point, ThomasLantern.

Before: half-alert mind, ignoring the signals that body is sending (distress signals - ex. feeling tired or bloated, candida, or other illneses; pleading signals - ex. asking for fresh food, fruit), and making choices primarily based on intelectual arguments coming from external data (books, media) or intelectual digestion. Body and mind are disconnected. Distressed body.

After: fully-awaken mind, intercepting the body's signals and acting accordingly, external data is not blindly absorbed or only intelectually digested but tested through the body and the body is the primary guide in choosing what's appropriate. Body and mind are connected. Happy body.

Gosia


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Cute diagram!

Clarification appreciated I get it now.

Gosia, you have included external sources in both your happy and sad diagrams.

I don't follow papers blindly, either, and have read several that strike me as false, especially some of the recent epidemiology papers from the Willett camp,

But the interesting things, I test them on myself as well. One of the most influential things to me, most instrumental in my going raw was not a raw paper at all, but one that eliminated most starches from the vegan diet (DAJ Jenkins' very high fiber "gorilla" diet study in the journal Metabolism). High raw was a baby step after that.

Arugula,

I was raised on cooked foods, like most people. However, I was not an easy child. I absolutely refused to eat ANYTHING with vinegar, not pickled food, not mayo, not salad dressing, even avoiding catsup and mustard. Also no spices. You would think this would be dream for a parent, as it would make food prep A LOT easier. But it did lead to some conflicts, because my mother had to soak salad stuff with oil and vinegar for other members of the family, I usually had a fit if she put any of that stuff on my plate. She would get pretty upset, because I don't think she wanted to prepare two salads. She had no idea how awful that stuff tasted to me. Now I can eat salads with dressings, but only because at resturants the food quality is SOOOO bad. But when eating salad stuff at home I much prefer the highest quality food items which don't need anything.

If I had it my way I would have never eaten steak either. I absolutely hated these shoe leather steaks my father would buy. My parents made me eat them. I would have loved to eat only fruit and PB&J sandwhiches. I would however sometimes accept hamburger without any toppings at all, and I liked flounder-minus any salt or lemon juice, and with no breading.

Yep, I liked my food pretty plain and simple. I never add salt to food, and rarely use any spices, cooked or not. My nephews are the same way. I am so happy that my sister is supportive of that. As far as I know she just wants them to be happy, and doesn't force her children to eat stuff they don't feel like eating. She likes the fact that it makes things easier. She does however go to the trouble of making sure that they get quality stuff. For example, they like peanut butter, so she gets fresh ground instead of 'skippy'.

Bryan,
What do you think about the Asian ideals of eating quickly cooked food in a wok? I took a class in Traditional Chinese Medicine and the instructor was quite clear that raw foodism was a fad and ultimately unhealthy in the long term. There is also the ideal of getting the 5 flavors, sweet, sour, salty, bitter and pungent. I can see that a raw food diet would be easy to get sweet, sour, bitter, and even some pungent things if you had small amounts of particular herbs.

I have heard about eating only foods which you can make an entire meal from them. That makes a lot of sense. But, can you get make a mono meal of a food which has a lot of pungent elements? Salty seems also difficult to get on a raw food diet, unless you added sea salt. Perhaps some seaweed might do the trick. I love seaweed salad, but I have only found it at resturants in my area, and its prepared in advance with sesame oil and some other stuff. I would love to taste the same thing without anything else.

You know as I wrote this, I discovered that its absolutely draining thinking of an ideal diet of any kind, it makes eating feel like a chore. I don't want that.

So, now you see what I mean. My body is my primary guide.

Arugula, in the above diagram the mind processes the external data, but it is the body that it is the guide. For example, if the body does not like some food, then the allert mind will intercept this signal and act accordingly, instead of intelectualizing that this food is good to eat for some reasons such as scientific references. Also, one can write the information into the external data by learning from the body.

Of course, this diagram is a simplified illustration of the more complex idea. The reality is that there can be a gradual transition from one (before) to the other (after). As I go, I learn to pick up more and more signals, which results in various new changes in my lifestyle. This is why gradual improvements are observed in the lifestyles of people who have grasped the idea that the body is the primary guide towards their health. So, as long as one is aware of this important truth, one can expect to progress. The direction of that progress will be, as far as nutrition goes, towards simplicity. As far as myself, I have still a fair bit to go, and I feel blessed that the awarness is in me!

And, reconnecting with the natural instinct is quite fun too. Feeling like exploring?

Gosia


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I think it is difficult to separate the mind from the body. If the mind is convinced that adequate selenium intake is essential, the body will act accordingly.

However, the mind may be convinced that adequate alpha-linolenic acid intake is not essential, but given enough time, the body will not act in accordance.

So I am afraid that I am ruined by my insatiable curiosity and interest in continued perusal of the literature. I have been "contaminated" by external influences and they will not be easily shaken. I derived great pleasure from learning and I intend to learn even more, both from my body and from reading papers. I may even go back to school to make my study of nutrition and physiology more formal.

There was a presentation at a CR society convention (year 2003, I think) by Dr. Luigi Fontana, a gerontologist at Washington U., who has studied both raw foodists and calorie restricted people who have "optimal" nutrition, i.e. they follow diets that meet or exceed all RDAs. There is some overlap: some of the CR people are mostly or very high raw.

He compared many biomarkers for the two groups. The raw foodists he studied had diets characterized by relatively low protein and relatively high fat (unlike you, I believe your diet is relatively low in fat as well). Surprisingly, or maybe not to you, the raw foodists did very well compared to the CR group, even though they did not take pains to meet any RDAs except for the small subset who took b12 supplements. On the other hand, the CR group did have some superior results. Exercisers and control groups were also compared. These notes were originally posted by Dean Pomerleau at the CR listserv.

--

Four groups:
Low energy intake - (CR) (1671kcal/day) - relatively high protein,
moderate fat
Higher energy intake/exped. (EX) - Exercise (2900kcal/day) - 50mi
running/wk
Control (2300kcal/day) (C) - SAD diet
Raw food (2050kcal/day) - high fat, low protein (RAW)

CRers has higher VO2Max than controls, but less than exercisers.

Study results - differences between four groups.

'=' or '<=' represents non-significant difference,
'<<' represents very big and significant difference.

CV Risk factors:
* VO2Max: C < Raw = CR < Ex
* BMI: Raw = CR < EX < C
* Body Fat: CR < EX < Raw < C
* Trunk Fat: CR < RAW = EX < C
* Leptin: C <= EX <= Raw << CR
* Apidonectin: C <= raw <= EX < CR
* Systolic BP: CR = RAW < EX = C
* Diastolic BP: CR = RAW < EX < C
* Max HR: C < CR = EX

Cholesterol is partly result of genetics, but largely diet/lifestyle
related.

* Total Chol: Raw < CR = EX < C
* LDLc: Raw <= CR <= EX < C
* HDLc: C < Raw = CR = EX
* Trig: Raw = CR = EX << C
* Tg/HDLc: Raw = CR = EX << C

Historical data from CRers show majority of lipids improvements by 1 year
on CR.

* Fasting glucose: CR <= Raw < EX < C
* Insulin: CR <= Ex <= Raw << C
* IR resistance: CR <= Ex <= Raw << C
* CRP: CR <= Raw <= Ex < C
* Artery wall thickness: CR <= Raw < EX <= C

Does CR delay aging in humans?

Can't claim that yet. But it does dramatically increase life expectancy -
based on improvements in risk factors, particularly for CVD.

Potential Markers of primary aging:
* Growth factors: Insulin, IGF-1, etc.
* BP and artery stiffness
* Inflammation markers: CRP, TNF-a, IL-6
* Body Temp, RMR, hormones (T3/rT3)
* White blood cell and lymphocyte count
* Markers of oxidative stress and protein glycation
* Heart, kidney and lung function markers

Unpublished data: CR hearts look 15-20 years younger than heart (based on
measure of ventricular filling).

* IGF-1: Raw << CR = Ex <= C

Interesting: CRers IGF-1 wasn't significantly different from controls.

* s-PDGF-AB (important growth factor):
CR < Raw = EX <= C
* s-TGF-Beta1 (another growth factor): CR < Raw <= Ex = C

CRers show little change in IGF-1, but much lower IGF-1 receptors, non-significant reduction in IGF-1 may not be the whole story wrt to IGF-1.

* WBC: CR <= Raw < EX < C
* Same relationships for lymphocytes, etc.

WBC could be marker of CR and aging. Spleen shrunk by CR - where WBC are
generated.

Paradoxically - CR -> improved immune function accompanied by lower WBC
(lymphopenia).

* Anion GAP: CR < Raw <= Ex <= C
* Total CO2: CR > Raw = ex > C
* Urine PH : CR = raw > EX = C

Achilles heal of CR? - bone mass

* Lumbar BMD: Raw <= CR < Ex <= C
* Same for other bone sites

What about bone quality? Possibly bone quality higher in CR?
* Bone turnover not higher in CR people - which is good
* Vit D: Raw >= CR > EX >= C
* Cortisol: CR >= C = EX = RAW

Conclusions:
* CR, raw and ex have markedly reduced risk of CVD
* CR and raw have powerful anti-inflammatory risk
* CR and raw have lower bone mass
* Don't have good markers of cancer or aging - so can't comment

---

My conclusion from all this is that there is something to be gained from minding RDAs on the raw food diet and also from keeping up with the literature. Diet is therapy, no question about it. But reading papers can be very therapeutic as well!

arugula, I admire your intellectual curiosity.

gosia, just because you may not care for math or science is no reason to disparage mathamaticians as "autistic".

scientists, engineers and mathematicians are the ones you should thank for people able to communicate instantly with us all in this way (not to mention arrange the complicated process of planting, growing and importing your tropical fruit).

Gosia, I agree with Narz on the comment that math is an autistic type activity.

I love math, and solving a good quadratic equation and getting into some calculus is a really good time to me.

Does that make me high on the autistic spectrum?

Narz, I think Gosia was being self-deprecating there actually - she's a math prof herself!
love
Ela

I looked up the word autistic at dictionary.reference.com - seems like everyone is autistic based on one of the definitions ("a tendency to view life in terms of one's own needs and desires."

You may now resume your autism... er, lives.