a few threads back sproutman powerlifter and others discussed in a great thread
where goitrogen levels are helped by taking in iodine ( i like kelp)

i was wondering if a similar solution existed to alleviate oxalate levels in foods

thanks!

The only solutions would be to ferment to reduce most oxalic acid, sprout to reduce some or to probably use probiotics.

Fermenting is excellent to reduce oxalic acid, especially with vegans and their reported low calcium absorption. If you are having a regular high calcium/high oxalate juice (spinach juice/purslane), you might want to be able to utilise that calcium in the drink since it is hard to get good calcium levels due to anti-nutrients and high phosphorous levels in foods. Maybe 50% rejuvalic mixed with 50% spinach juice. Some ferments are o.k and could pay big dividends if the right nourishment is fermented to unlock all the goodies inside.

The difference between fermented v's non fermented juice is noticable. My plain alfalfa juice dries the throat because it is loaded with anti-nutrients like tannins, but as soon as l add rejuvalic it breaks down those nasty inhibitors and no longer dries the throat.

If you don't want to do that you may try sprouting seeds (spinach seed sprouts) to reduce any oxalic acid.

Or, you may try probiotics. From my research it looks like probiotics effect the saliva, stomach and the intestines, so it looks like they are the answer to most of these problems. These probiotics look like they introduce high levels of certain bacteria's which produce various acids which break down anti-nutrients, but these bacterias are also in the mouth and stomach, which imo will stop anti-nutrients binding with nutrients. WOW!!!

I need to do more research on probiotic strains to nail a few things down, but l will get back to this important thread soon and get some feedback on this subject from someone who would know much about it.

Without special tools we are just babies drowning in a sea of anti-nutrients. We need to tame our foods and be the boss. We might have once had much greater bacteria levels and could break down anti-nutrients, but these days it looks like we definitely need some ferments or probiotics. The ferment science is incredible, and it looks like the probiotic science is just as incredible (similar areas).

People who tame anti-nutrients can come out winners. People who are ruled by anti-nutrients could well come out losers in the game. The highly wonderful anti-nutrients are scallywags...they give so much but they also take hostages. Since they play tricks we must limit them by using good tools.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2013 10:07PM by The Sproutarian Man.

The oxalate solution is a very very complicated one because so many complex issues are involved, most notably the individuality of the human body and various plants containing oxalic acid.

It does look like things like probiotics do help break down oxalic acid as expected, and including extra calcium in the diet has been proven to help in some cases, and combining various foods to help oxalates to chelate with other minerals instead of just calcium. But using probiotics is not 100% guaranteed to break down oxalic acid because it has never been specifically proven, but l reckon it still would for various reasons (only my opinion).

Lots can be talked about in this thread, but l will keep it simple because it's hard to make sound conclusions because the science doesn't understand the full interactions of the oxalate forums, the plants and the body. It is fascinating reading and it will take 30 or more hours to get a simple understanding of what is going on, but l want to do it because it is important to try and find solutions to anti-nutrients with sharp teeth.

Probiotics break down so many anti nutrients and harsh fibers, and it does clearly look like they can help with oxalic acid. Here is some hope below:

Reduction of oxaluria after an oral course of lactic acid bacteria at high concentration

Campieri C, Campieri M, Bertuzzi V, Swennen E, Matteuzzi D, Stefoni S, Pirovano F, Centi C, Ulisse S, Famularo G, De Simone C
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

More hope:

Use of a probiotic to decrease enteric hyperoxaluria

Lieske JC, Goldfarb DS, De Simone C, Regnier C
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Still, it's not as simple as that. Those studies still have flaws.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2013 12:14AM by The Sproutarian Man.

hi sproutman

thanks for the very helpful insights
where would i find more info on oxalates being broken down by probiotics
also wondering which ones, lactobacillus strains, thermodophilhus? acidophilus? etc.
be neat to pin a specific one or a more specific cocktail of sorts

do u have any more info from your archives that i could read concerning this?
looking forward

Try to read some of the following. It would have been nice to have presented it properly, but never mind.

Probiotics and Other Key Determinants of Dietary Oxalate Absorption

Michael Liebman* and Ismail A. Al-Wahsh
[advances.nutrition.org]

A nice litle probiotic site with all the good ones:
[www.probiotic.org]

Another good site with science references which talk about how various phenols and other anti nutrients are broken down.
[probi.se]

This is a good little starting point to get the mind started and flowing. When that is combined with other study and fermentation research, we can really start to get a better understanding of simple stuff.

The good stuff in the HHI supplement:
[www.hippocratesstore.org]

Probiotics can also decrease intestinal ph. Just saying.

hi sproutman

thanks a bunch!
will read

hi sproutman

i'm studying the articles u gave me ( thanks again!

and i especially appreciated the one on probiotics and the oxalate absorption

do you have any more links on probiotics and oxalate absorption? if not, if you run into them in the future, i'd appreciate if you passed it on

i'll devour it like a beautiful green salad

Not to raise too many alarm bells, but this study suggests a possible link between high fructose diets and kidney stones. Actually, this study assessed fructose as an independant risk factor for increasing the possible risk of kidney stones. Still, no need to panic about this because fructose is still largely misunderstood.

Fructose consumption and the risk of kidney stones

E N Taylor, G C Curhan
[www.nature.com]

Now we do know that fruits and vegetables can be good for reducing kidney stones risk factors according to other studies done, but we also want to be aware of the possible role excessive fruit consumption could play in possible kidney stone formation, especially those high fructose dried fruits.

If you are a big fruit eater, it is possible that good levels of B6 and magnesium may help, but it looks like brown seaweed consumption is definitely a good way to go. Fructose is a very complicated subject, so it good to just keep this study in the back of your mind and not worry too much about it...just wanted to bring it up.

www.thesproutarian.com

Algaes are classified as protists not plants. They are not animals either.

IMO it's hairsplitting to say algae isn't vegan.

For years I've thought and acted on the suspicion that one of the problems with oxalates was due to mercury binding with, and stealing, sulfur which is so necessary for so many processes in our bodies if we are to be healthy. As I've mentioned before mercury loves sulfur and is very good at yanking it away from being utilizable.


Amongst the changes in my health once I added a lot more sulfur containing foods and black salt to my diet is that I can eat as many foods containing oxalates as I want without having to worry. Although I suspended this "habit" while I was on a hclf raw vegan diet for 11 months the rest of my time was spent on a high sulfur diet which I am pretty certain has as much to do with my health turning around for the better as any other one change has. I want to stress this for those who are concerned with oxalates but do not want to eat seaweeds. I think upping your sulfur intake does not necessitate eating seaweed but will serve the same purpose. It always has for me and I, for years, have been ting a huge amount of oxalate containing foods while continuing to detox mercury at a pretty good clip.

Also, although I take this for other reasons it is another thing that turns out to be very helpful with oxalates...

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Don't be afraid of the tannins. I'm not and never have been. Tannins have their benefits.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't be afraid of the tannins. I'm not and
> never have been. Tannins have their benefits.

Tannins are a phytochemical, and all phytochemicals have benefits. The problem is that at least in the short term we know they have a devasting impact on nutrient uptake on animals and humans. This is why l say to minimise them, but this doesn't mean we should knock them out completely because binding takes place at certain threshold levels on tannin.

BUT....the big question is, what is the long term impact of tannins on the body, does the body make adjustments over the long term like it appears to do with various phytic acids? One long term study shows that P.A actually increases calcium intake after the body has adjusted to it long term, but in the short term it robs calcium.

Another question is, does mankind have the bacteria and enzyme levels to break down these tannins over the long term?

See, like you said recently, we don't know much about anything regarding the long term effects of food substances on the body. All this science is short term stuff. We know hardly anything about anything when it comes to the body and food. If you are a raw leader and have a big ego and think they know alot LOL, l say it's time to get into reality and WAKE UP, because they know barely anything.

Personally, l feel the body might be able to make the adjustment over the long term, BUT, does our un-natural lifestyle on cooked food for decades impact this ability to make the adjustment? Do we need to build up the enzymes and bacteria levels in the body which does appear to be working for various people like Clement, Kulvinskas, myself and Commonsenseraw before the body can make a natural long term adjustment to break down all anti nutrients without supplemented help? Personally, l think, if we can build the body up to good health with good bacteria, enzyme, and nutrient levels, we might be able to make the long term adjustment to breaking down these anti nutrients.

I have a million questions l could ask, but there are not answers to any of them. I think we need to strike a balance and not put all our eggs into one basket. Use digestive enzymes and probiotics with some of the heavier meals, and do without them at other meals. Continue to do this until your digestion reaches great levels and then try doing without supplemental help, but still use occasional ferments.

I feel convinced that using probiotic fermentation to increase good bacteria in the saliva, gut and intestines will greatly help break down oxalic acid. Prebiotic bacteria from common raw food diets isn't enough for many people imo, so manipulation of the food supply via fermentation could play a really important role.

Scientists are starting to manipulate bacteria in all types of animals now to be able to tolerate tannin rich feeds etc and it is having great effect.

Check out this little study about the promising future of probiotic strains:

Oxalate consumption by lactobacilli: evaluation of oxalyl-CoA decarboxylase and formyl-CoA transferase activity in Lactobacillus acidophilus

S. Turroni, B. Vitali
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]


Conclusions: Strains of Lactobacillus with a high oxalate-degrading activity were identified. The function and significance of Lact. acidophilus LA14 oxalyl-CoA decarboxylase and formyl-CoA transferase in oxalate catabolism were demonstrated. These results suggest the potential use of Lactobacillus strains for the degradation of oxalate in the human gut.

Significance and Impact of the Study: Identification of probiotic strains with oxalate-degrading activity can offer the opportunity to provide this capacity to individuals suffering from an increased body burden of oxalate and oxalate-associated disorders


and this, looks like increasing the good bacterias enhances one's ability to break down oxalic acid:


The Metabolic and Ecological Interactions of Oxalate-Degrading Bacteria in the Mammalian Gut

Aaron W. Miller, Denise Dearing
[www.mdpi.com]


Some species of oxalate-degrading bacteria, such as O. formigenes and L. acidophilus, can degrade large amounts of oxalate, while others, such as L. casei, degrade a fifth as much oxalate given the same conditions. However, as the relative abundance of a particular species increases, so does its capacity to degrade oxalate within the whole community

WOW!!!

And in regards to using high levels of good bacteria to break down toxins, this study also backs up what l have been saying. Check out this:

The immense metabolic plasticity inherent within the gut microbiota provides a strong potential for the biotransformation of dietary toxins. To date, dozens of bacterial species have been isolated from the GI tract of mammals that are capable of biotransforming toxic PSCs into non-toxic by-products. Examples of classes of PSCs that can be metabolized by microbes include mimosine, tannins, and phenolic compounds. The microbial contribution to overcoming challenges associated with consuming plants is well known and is perhaps reflected in gut microbiota diversity, which is greatest in mammalian herbivores

and

Indicative of the importance of pH to oxalate degradation, the cyclic fatty acid configuration of O. formigenes suggests that this species has considerable acid tolerance


I think l am onto something big here. It seems to work in real world experiments and the science is starting to suggest it could be the real deal solution to toxins and anti-nutrients.

This is my favourite area of raw food research...overcoming the problems of the food matrix...this is sooo exciting. I have thousands of pages of research and l will start a big thread on this...really...l should write a book on taming the food matrix because the topic is massive!!! I am going to write on the food matrix on my website when l can find the time, but it will take over a year to finish it....it will be HUGE.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2014 11:42PM by The Sproutarian Man.

And it looks like we need to pay great attention to chewing our food, or at least chew our smoothies and juices well because it looks like the mouth plays a really important role in breaking down oxalic acid for humans in particular, other animals can rely more on the gut and intestines.


"Gut regions can be analogized with chemical reactors to further inform the microbial biotransformation of compounds. For microbial oxalate degradation, oxalate is the reactant and the bacterial enzymes, oxalyl-CoA decarboxylase and formyl-CoA transferase, are the reagents. In batch-type reactors, similar to the rabbit cecum, the digesta is introduced in discrete batches with continuous stirring and the reactant decreases with increasing retention time. In this case, the microbiota receives the greatest exposure to the reactant with the initial input, which decreases over time and leads to temporal heterogeneity in exposure. In continuous stir tank reactors (CSTR), such as the rumen of ruminants, digesta is completely mixed with a continuous flow of the reactant through the system, which maintains a constant concentration and rate of reaction [80]. In this type of gut, the complete mixing and uniform flow rate would ensure uniform exposure of the reactant to the reagents (microbial enzymes). Finally, in plug-flow reactors, like the colon of horses or humans, digesta flows continuously through a tube with little mixing. Here, the concentration of the reactant is at its maximum upon entry and decreases along the length of the tube, which leads to spatial heterogeneity. However, the secretion of oxalate into the colon by O. formigenes can lead to a more uniform distribution of the reactant along the length of the colon"


But still, we also have brown seaweeds to greatly help with oxalic acid as mentioned. But if you are drinking spinach juice or drinking down green spinach smoothies without chewing those drinks you are not doing yourself any favours.

I say to do the ferments and increase the bacteria in the mouth, and the rest oif the body and pay great attention to using your mouth to do much of the heavy lifting in digesting. Many raw food leaders lead by poor example by standing up and swallowing their juices/smoothies...NOT GOOD!!!

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2014 12:05AM by The Sproutarian Man.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For years I've thought and acted on the suspicion
> that one of the problems with oxalates was due to
> mercury binding with, and stealing, sulfur which
> is so necessary for so many processes in our
> bodies if we are to be healthy. As I've mentioned
> before mercury loves sulfur and is very good at
> yanking it away from being utilizable.
>
>
> Amongst the changes in my health once I added
> a lot more sulfur containing foods and black salt
> to my diet is that I can eat as many foods
> containing oxalates as I want without having to
> worry. Although I suspended this "habit" while I
> was on a hclf raw vegan diet for 11 months the
> rest of my time was spent on a high sulfur diet
> which I am pretty certain has as much to do with
> my health turning around for the better as any
> other one change has. I want to stress this for
> those who are concerned with oxalates but do not
> want to eat seaweeds. I think upping your sulfur
> intake does not necessitate eating seaweed but
> will serve the same purpose. It always has for me
> and I, for years, have been ting a huge amount of
> oxalate containing foods while continuing to detox
> mercury at a pretty good clip.


"Sulphates

Oxalates and Sulfur use the same channels for absorption. This means that in those who consume only a small amount of sulfur will allow more oxalates to be absorbed into the cell. By taking sulfur supplements such as MSM or sulfur-rich foods you will reduce the amount of oxalates absorbed and instead 'dump' them. Dumping of oxalates might create a temporary worsening of symptoms."

[shop.realizehealth.com.au]

........

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/2014 03:33AM by The Sproutarian Man.

But things go even further than what l just mentioned. Not all probiotics work in breaking down oxalic acid, there is a good reason for this. More on that another day. Full spectrum probiotic bacteria from ferments is really the best way, or a very high quality probiotic supplement. We need to be careful that certain probiotic strains don't wash out other probiotic strains.

sproutman

could you go into greater detail on what brown seaweed is good for
maybe you said it in another thread
but you just intimated upon it here concerning it is good for breakdown of oxalates

what is this thing about chewing smoothies ... better for oxalate breakdown
once again .. more detail?
mechanism?

sorry if you are repeating
just seems like i am getting glimpses but not the entire story

are you pretty much just saying that brown seawees and/or chewing ( even smoothies) will help break down oxalates?


suez

what are u talking about concerning o formigenes
can you make it more succinct?

is this something that will definitively break down oxalates too?



interesting posts here

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what are u talking about concerning o formigenes
> can you make it more succinct?

"As O.formigenes is strictly anaerobic
it is truly in symbiotic relation with us in our
lower intestine. We give it a nice home and oxalic
food to break down for us. I've read it can deal
with 70 to 100 grams of it a day."


O.formigenes bacteria is in a symbiotic relation with us. It is a strictly anaerobic bacteria.

[en.wikipedia.org]

[en.wikipedia.org]



> is this something that will definitively break
> down oxalates too?

Yes.

Hi Suez. I certainly have not forgotten about it. I will try and make time during the coming week to make some comments.

Haven't read a ton about it, but because of little white crystals being on baby spinach, heard about calcium oxalate. Do you think kidney stones are mainly of that material, or what? I've heard high salt intake causes kidney stones. Was recently reading an article in amazing wellness magazine, about how calcium phosphate crystals are deposited in the body. Called "calcification". Says from drinking soda, eating refined n processed food, n flouride. Says many people have a lg chunk of it in their brains, on an mri. Wonder if baking soda put in so much food also contributes to it, having so many excess minerals.

Apparently most people have small calcium deposits in their body. Another good reason to be vegan:

" Neurocysticercosis is another inflammatory lesion which can lead to deposition of calcium in the brain. It is a parasitic infection caused due to pork tape worm (taenia Solium). The disease is spread due to eating contaminated food. The egg of tapeworm enters into the body by eating contaminated food, especially pork, vegetables and fruit. It may reach in the brain through blood circulation. In brain it forms a cyst. The cyst after a period of treatment gets calcified."

From:


[www.tandurust.com]

The late Norman Walker wrote in his book "Fresh Vegetable and Fruit Juices" that oxalic acid is not merely harmless, but actually beneficial, when the foods containing it are RAW. One sentence: "When the oxalic acid has become inorganic by cooking or processing the foods that contain it, then this acid forms an interlocking compound with the calcium even combining with the calcium in other foods eaten during the same meal, destroying the nourishing value of both...This is the reason I never eat cooked or canned spinach."

There's much more, on Pages 62, 63 & 64.

FWIW

Horsea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The late Norman Walker wrote in his book "Fresh
> Vegetable and Fruit Juices" that oxalic acid is
> not merely harmless, but actually beneficial, when
> the foods containing it are RAW. One sentence:
> "When the oxalic acid has become inorganic by
> cooking or processing the foods that contain it,
> then this acid forms an interlocking compound with
> the calcium even combining with the calcium in
> other foods eaten during the same meal, destroying
> the nourishing value of both...This is the reason
> I never eat cooked or canned spinach."
>
> There's much more, on Pages 62, 63 & 64.
>
> FWIW

The oxalic acid crystals are there to defend the plants from non-cooking creatures. The crystals are sharp.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Horsea Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The late Norman Walker wrote in his book "Fresh
> > Vegetable and Fruit Juices" that oxalic acid is
> > not merely harmless, but actually beneficial,
> when
> > the foods containing it are RAW. One sentence:
>
> > "When the oxalic acid has become inorganic by
> > cooking or processing the foods that contain
> it,
> > then this acid forms an interlocking compound
> with
> > the calcium even combining with the calcium in
> > other foods eaten during the same meal,
> destroying
> > the nourishing value of both...This is the
> reason
> > I never eat cooked or canned spinach."
> >
> > There's much more, on Pages 62, 63 & 64.
> >
> > FWIW
>
> The oxalic acid crystals are there to defend the
> plants from non-cooking creatures. The crystals
> are sharp.


Yes Suez, I had a neighbour give me some old spinach from her garden and l juiced it (first veggie juice in a very long time). It was high in oxalic acid and l felt sick for many many hours afterwards and those sharp chystals reaked havoc with me.

Suez: I haven't forgotten about the post about bacterias that you have brought up. Please give me a week or two to get back to it. Got filming to prepare for (EMF waves and sprouting issues), a fat article to write and still working on the alkaline article, + always lots of emails and p.m's to respond to also. Leave it with me and l will get to it in time, l just want to write a proper response and not rush it....need to focus on the topic of bacteria when my mind is cleared out from other topics.

Regards: The Sproutarian.