Hello,

I really want to give raw another try! Despite everything I've been hearing and reading recently (http://renegadehealth.com/blog/deathofraw) I am not yet convinced that "raw food is dead" or that it is not what's biologically appropriate for humans. I went 100% raw years ago but I fell of the wagon (not due to lack of discipline or resolve) and have been trying to get back on ever since

BUT, I can't help but wonder...

Why does Nora Lenz look so frail and gaunt and just plain malnourished (albeit great for a woman her age)? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC3pmbeBA9A - I loved this interview by the way!)

And, why does Freelee & Teri Levanthal & Kristina Carrillo look so skinny and weak and anorexic despite the huuuuge amounts of calories they consume?

And, why does Dr. Doug Graham look extremely old and haggard? What caused this rapid aging?

And, why does DurianRider look... well, the way he does?

Do you believe that raw is only meant as a cleansing diet and is not sustainable, and maybe even damaging in the long term?

Thank you so much!

I hope I haven't offended anyone... I'm just genuinely concerned



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 03:42PM by Ari.

Ari Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello,
>
> I really want to give raw another try! Despite
> everything I've been hearing and reading recently
> (http://renegadehealth.com/blog/deathofraw) I am
> not yet convinced that "raw food is dead" or that
> it is not what's biologically appropriate for
> humans. I went 100% raw years ago but I fell of
> the wagon (not due to lack of discipline or
> resolve) and have been trying to get back on ever
> since
>
> BUT, I can't help but wonder...
>
> Why does Nora Lenz look so frail and gaunt and
> just plain malnourished (albeit great for a woman
> her age)?
> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC3pmbeBA9A - I
> loved this interview by the way!)
>
> And, why does Freelee & Teri Levanthal & Kristina
> Carrillo look so skinny and weak and anorexic
> despite the huuuuge amounts of calories they
> consume?
>
> And, why does Dr. Doug Graham look extremely old
> and haggard? What caused this rapid aging?
>
> And, why does DurianRider look... well, the way he
> does?
>
> Do you believe that raw is only meant as a
> cleansing diet and is not sustainable in the long
> term?
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> I hope I haven't offended anyone... I'm just
> genuinely concerned


DurianRider is not to be looked at as a "guru" or "expert", he's very ignorant when it comes to nutrition and the raw food diet. There's actually a video of him sprinkling and eating a mountain of refined sugar on top of GMO cereal and claiming it was healthy.

The fact of the matter is that people, including so-called "gurus" and "experts" who fail on a raw vegan diet are simply not doing it the right way. It's not an easy diet to follow, especially in the long-run and many people, due to lack of education on the matter, suffer from deficiencies. People think that it's as simple as eating fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds... and it's not. Especially when most produce, including organic, are weeks old and shipped hundreds of miles, rendering them deplete in nutrients and enzymes. Thankfully by joining this forum I learned all this.

You need sprouts, sea vegetables (kelp, dulse, nori, wakame), algae (chlorella, AFA, spirulina), and green juices (sprouts, *fresh* veggies) on a consistent basis. These are absolutely essential and my guess is that most raw foodists do not eat these, or in significant amounts. When it comes to nuts and seeds, they need to be sprouted, but eating too much of them is a bad idea due to huge amounts of omega-6's compared to omega-3's, and phytic acid and other antinutrients. Probiotics and B12 are also essential to supplement with, and D3 if you live in an area where you cannot get sun.

Other things like colon hydrotherapy and infrared saunas are very beneficial and will drastically speed the healing/detox process, and keep you clean in general due to this toxic cesspool we all live.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 03:56PM by jtprindl.

Good question and yeah if the diet was as anti-aging as the marketeers make out, then the majority wouldn't look so poorly. There are plenty of people on a SAD diet that look better than the above examples.

Thats nothing inherently aging about raw foods but more to do with trying to only eat raw foods, many of these people are low or deficient in many vital nutrients such as certain amino acids/low protein diets, zinc, vitamin B12 and other nutrients. Low protein and lack of zinc is what i suspect causes the emaciated appearance and lack of muscle tone, that so many long term raw foodists show.

Yeah i don't believe its a sustainable diet in the long term especially if your not supplementing the likes of vitamin B12 to complete it nutritionally, but even then there are so many other nutrients that can be low or completely deficient on an all raw vegan diet, that there are alot of potential pitfalls.

Some of the people you mentioned also take it to another extreme by removing natural fat sources from the diet, trying to live nearly only on fruit etc. The level of restriction just increases chances of nutrient deficiencies and failure even further.

What is interesting is that cooked vegans don't seem to display the level of problems that the raw vegans run into, the only reason for this i can assume is the higher levels of protein and other minerals such as zinc coming from including beans, legumes, grains etc. Hardly ideal foods to be basing your diet around however.

Very few individuals seem to thrive on an all raw vegan diet, and even then take what many of these people say with a pinch of salt on the forum because they often admit to eating cooked and wider range of foods than they often let on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:00PM by powerlifter.

Sprouts and algae's are the best sources of protein, higher-quality and more absorbable than animal products without the toxic and acidic side effects.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sprouts and algae's are the best sources of
> protein, higher-quality and more absorbable than
> animal products without the toxic and acidic side
> effects.

They are good sources of protein i agree, but how much sprouts or algaes would i need to eat to get around 80-90g of protein daily even if say other foods took care of half of my intake, thats alot of sprouts and algaes in the end.

Its very difficult to achieve in real life application, many alternative doctors such as Dr Wilson say that sprouts also aren't meant to be consumed in large amounts, which i have to agree with, ive never felt good consuming excessive amounts of sprouts or algaes, despite being a fan of both.

Its kind of the same thing the fruitarians say, is it possible to get the RDA of protein from fruit, possibly but only if your eating 6000-7000 calories worth of fruit. It has no real life application in the end, its just hypothetical because pretty much no one can consume that much volume of raw foods day in, day out. Nor should they need too.

10% of your calories coming from protein is far too low as is 10% fat in the case of 80/10/10 for most individuals. I still have no idea Doug Grahams recommendation to need 80 percent of the diet from carbs/sugar.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:11PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sprouts and algae's are the best sources of
> > protein, higher-quality and more absorbable
> than
> > animal products without the toxic and acidic
> side
> > effects.
>
> They are good sources of protein i agree, but how
> much sprouts or algaes would i need to eat to get
> around 80-90g of protein daily even if say other
> foods took care of half of my intake, thats alot
> of sprouts and algaes in the end.
>
> Its very difficult to achieve in real life
> application, many alternative doctors such as Dr
> Wilson say that sprouts also aren't meant to be
> consumed in large amounts, which i have to agree
> with, ive never felt good consuming excessive
> amounts of sprouts or algaes.


It's a huge myth that you need that much protein: www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_XGWCE3w1A

Also, when you juice you get more protein because you need higher amounts of sprouts to make green sprout juices.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:12PM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a huge myth that you need that much protein:
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_XGWCE3w1A

I still don't agree, the majority of reliable science agrees that 0.8g per kg of bodyweight is a healthy recommendation for protein. If you are active like many raw foodists are then the recommendation is to increase protein to around 1-1.5g per kg of bodyweight.

If these raw foodists needed such low protein as the theory makes out, then they wouldn't all be gaunt looking, emaciated and lacking muscle tone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:25PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's a huge myth that you need that much
> protein:
> > www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_XGWCE3w1A
>
> I still don't agree, the majority of reliable
> science agrees that 0.8g per kg of bodyweight is a
> healthy recommendation for protein. If you are
> active like many raw foodists are then the
> recommendation is to increase protein to around 1g
> per kg of bodyweight.
>
> If these raw foodists needed such low protein as
> the theory makes out, then they wouldn't all be
> gaunt looking, emaciated and lacking muscle tone.


It's because instead of eating a mostly sproutarian diet with moderate amounts of sea vegetables and algae, they are eating vast amounts of unripened and old fruits and vegetables. Like I said, it's lack of education about the diet rather than the diet itself. And that's why it's a huge myth, many think you need large amounts of protein but you do not.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:19PM by jtprindl.

Besides, take a look at what the largest land animals on the planet (gorillas, elephants, rhinos, hippos, etc.) eat... plants. Humans are the only species that cooks their food and drinks another species milk. Most animals live 7x their age of maturity... with humans it's a rarity to live to 100 and most people die well before that.

emaciated - you mean like chris califano?

[api.ning.com]

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> emaciated - you mean like chris califano?
>
> [api.ning.com]
> o-LgsHKlvgDjn9vJMLZ93cr0blRmpAoH4bnpQcqlu4m3TQ*L9p
> XhDVP8s1qjBPk0H4IN8DXW/ChrisSeptFlexBananasposter.
> jpg


There are a lot of very fit and big vegans out there, but in my opinion they are eating way too many calories. Instead of slamming down 20-30 bananas per day on top of whatever else they're eating, they could be juicing grass/sprouts and eating algae. Way less calories, way more nutrition and higher quality protein. Maybe even toss in a little bit of sprouted seeds.

We aren't animals though, humans live completely different and are completely different even if we share similar genetic traits, humans run into much more stress and toxicity than any land animal ever does.

These animals don't need to worry about bills, relationship problems or any of the other stressful aspects of human life.

Many of these animals have different digestive systems to cope with eating only plants. They often regurgitate food several times to breakdown the tough cellulose structures, making more nutrients bio-available.

Look how much smarter we are than these animals for cooking our food and thus allowing more nutrient density and thus bigger brain development. We are talking via a computer at the moment that can be broadcasted all over the world via the internet. Something these animals will never be able to achieve most likely.

Humans would have died out a long time ago if they were still eating nothing but raw plant foods. Evolution happened for a reason and the introduction of cooking is a vital one to the development of human beings in my opinion.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> emaciated - you mean like chris califano?
>
> [api.ning.com]
> o-LgsHKlvgDjn9vJMLZ93cr0blRmpAoH4bnpQcqlu4m3TQ*L9p
> XhDVP8s1qjBPk0H4IN8DXW/ChrisSeptFlexBananasposter.
> jpg

How come Chris Califano is the only raw foodist with any level of decent muscle mass ?

He has a good physique, but i don't believe for a second that he eats 80/10/10 like he claims. He wouldn't have that level of muscle mass consuming 10 percent protein a day, unless he was consuming an absolute whopping level of calories, in which case he'd be getting several thousand grams of sugar to boot and wouldn't be as lean. Theres a reason why 99% of 80/10/10ers are skinny fat and lacking muscle tone, despite chomping down lots of calories.

Don't believe everything you read, most of these people are less than honest about what they really eat. Maybe Chris Califano is one of the few who is telling the truth, in which case i can say he is in the minority 1% of people making the diet work, if he truly is.

Vegan bodybuilding is a different matter and as someone who hung out at the vegan bodybuilding forums for years, you will find they heavily rely on pea, soy and other isolated protein powders in order to get enough protein.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:53PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We aren't animals though, humans live completely
> different and are completely different even if we
> share similar genetic traits, humans run into much
> more stress and toxicity than any land animal ever
> does.
>
> These animals don't need to worry about bills,
> relationship problems or any of the other
> stressful aspects of human life.
>
> Many of these animals have different digestive
> systems to cope with eating only plants. They
> often regurgitate food several times to breakdown
> the tough cellulose structures, making more
> nutrients bio-available.
>
> Look how much smarter we are than these animals
> for cooking our food and thus allowing more
> nutrient density and thus bigger brain
> development. We are talking via a computer at the
> moment that can be broadcasted all over the world
> via the internet. Something these animals will
> never be able to achieve most likely.
>
> Humans would have died out a long time ago if they
> were still eating nothing but raw plant foods.
> Evolution happened for a reason and the
> introduction of cooking is a vital one to the
> development of human beings in my opinion.


1.) Humans are 100% physiologically herbivorous.
2.) There is no evidence that suggests cooked foods are responsible for larger brains.
3.) Humans are the cause of their own stress (money, greed, destroying the planet, etc.). If we all lived in harmony with one another, we would be stress-free.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:52PM by jtprindl.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fresh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > emaciated - you mean like chris califano?
> >
> >
> [api.ning.com]
>
> >
> o-LgsHKlvgDjn9vJMLZ93cr0blRmpAoH4bnpQcqlu4m3TQ*L9p
>
> >
> XhDVP8s1qjBPk0H4IN8DXW/ChrisSeptFlexBananasposter.
>
> > jpg
>
> How come Chris Califano is the only raw foodist
> with any level of decent muscle mass ?
>
> He has a good physique, but i don't believe for a
> second that he eats 80/10/10 like he claims. He
> wouldn't have that level of muscle mass consuming
> 10 percent protein a day, unless he was consuming
> an absolute whopping level of calories, in which
> case he'd be getting several thousand grams of
> sugar to boot and wouldn't be as lean. Theres a
> reason why 99% of 80/10/10ers are skinny fat and
> lacking muscle tone.
>
> Don't believe everything you read, most of these
> people are less than honest about what they really
> eat. Maybe Chris Califano is one of the few who is
> telling the truth, in which case i can say he is
> in the minority 1% of people making the diet work,
> if he truly is.


Whenever you are shown something that contradicts or discredits your beliefs, you just say you don't believe it. That's called cognitive dissonance. Besides, he's not the only fit or muscular raw vegan. Maybe the only one YOU'VE seen (or chosen to see).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:51PM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whenever you are shown something that contradicts
> or discredits your beliefs, you just say you don't
> believe it. That's called cognitive dissonance.
> Besides, he's not the only fit or muscular raw
> vegan. Maybe the only one YOU'VE seen (or chosen
> to see).

And with yourself you just move the goal posts lol.

i just said that don't believe everything you read. Too many people are gullible to what durianrider claims to eat or Doug Graham, when behind closed doors you have no idea what they really eat.

Like i say i don't believe for a second he eats 80/10/10 and can maintain that level of muscle mass on such diet with 10 percent of the calories coming from protein, unless hes eating alot of calories. But like i said if he does then he truly is in the minority here of making it work.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 04:58PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Whenever you are shown something that
> contradicts
> > or discredits your beliefs, you just say you
> don't
> > believe it. That's called cognitive dissonance.
> > Besides, he's not the only fit or muscular raw
> > vegan. Maybe the only one YOU'VE seen (or
> chosen
> > to see).
>
> And with yourself you just move the goal posts
> lol.
>
> I didn't say i didn't believe him, i just said
> that don't believe everything you read. Too many
> people are gullible to what durianrider eats or
> Doug Graham, when behind closed doors you have no
> idea what they really eat.
>
> Like i say i don't believe for a second he eats
> 80/10/10 and can maintain that level of muscle
> mass on such diet. But like i said if he does then
> he truly is in the minority here.


The fact of the matter is that a mostly sproutarian diet, with lots of grass/sprout juices and moderate amounts of sea vegetables, algae, ripe fruits and veggies, and sprouted seeds... is by far the healthiest diet. By far.

Going back to my last point... you don't need lots of protein to maintain or gain muscle mass, that's a myth.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact of the matter is that a mostly
> sproutarian diet, with lots of grass/sprout juices
> and moderate amounts of sea vegetables, algae,
> ripe fruits and veggies, and sprouted seeds... is
> by far the healthiest diet. By far.
>
> Going back to my last point... you don't need lots
> of protein to maintain or gain muscle mass, that's
> a myth.

If it is fact like you say and a sproutarian diet in your words is the healthiest diet by far, then show me the science or studies to suggest that it is indeed healthy, sustainable in the long term and the best diet by far ?

Else you have just bought into the same hype that the 80/10/10ers or other raw vegans do, when there is little to no science to back up such a diet's efficiency. Many of the typical raw vegan pitfalls can still apply to a sproutarian diet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 05:07PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The fact of the matter is that a mostly
> > sproutarian diet, with lots of grass/sprout
> juices
> > and moderate amounts of sea vegetables, algae,
> > ripe fruits and veggies, and sprouted seeds...
> is
> > by far the healthiest diet. By far.
> >
> > Going back to my last point... you don't need
> lots
> > of protein to maintain or gain muscle mass,
> that's
> > a myth.
>
> If it is fact like you say and a sproutarian diet
> in your words is the healthiest diet by far, then
> show me the science or studies to suggest that it
> is indeed healthy, sustainable and the best diet
> by far ?
>
> Else you have just bought into the same marketing
> that the 80/10/10ers or other raw vegans do, when
> there is little to no science to back up such a
> diet's efficiency. Many of the typical raw vegan
> pitfalls can still apply to a sproutarian diet.


Considering there haven't been any studies (that I'm aware of) directly addressing sproutarian diets (and likely because not many people follow a sproutarian diet), I can't do that. But when you look at the nutritional components, it exceeds every other diet by far.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=224_McXDN70 - Dr. Brian Clement on three most essential foods

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JKvu9MJfk8 - Dr. Brian Clement on B12 and how meat and dairy consumers have the lowest B12 levels but everyone is deficient due to human physiology changing over the recent decades.

Very short and informational videos.

If there is no science backing up sproutarian diets as being healthy or in your words the healthiest diet by far, then its just more speculation not fact as your claiming.

I have read pretty much every common Vitamin B12 study to date and ive never encountered one where meat eaters or lacto-ovo vegetarians score lower than the vegans do. Contrary to what Brian Clement is saying, not everyone is deficient because the studies aren't showing that and since i quit a vegan diet my B12 levels have been perfect and they were before veganism also.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 05:27PM by powerlifter.

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there is no science backing up sproutarian
> diets as being healthy or in your words the
> healthiest diet by far, then its just more
> speculation not fact as your claiming.
>
> I have read pretty much every common Vitamin B12
> study to date and ive never encountered one where
> meat eaters or lacto-ovo vegetarians score lower
> than the vegans do. Contrary to what Brian Clement
> is saying, not everyone is deficient because the
> studies aren't showing that and since i quit a
> vegan diet my B12 levels have been perfect and
> they were before veganism also.

When you look at the nutritional components of grass/sprouts, sea vegetables, algae, and ripe fruits/veggies, it's common sense. The science is looking at the nutrition of what is being consumed.

What type of B12 are these studies testing for and by what method are they measuring B12? Blood testing isn't a reliable way to test because that's just what is in your blood, not what is being absorbed.

The cows and bonobos and koalas are all waiting for scientific studies to determine what to eat. It's sad.
How do they survive? It's a puzzle.Please provide the studies for them, powerlifter.
They're depending on you.

Go live out in the wild if you want to be an animal so much fresh.

Do it without any man made tools, clothing and food, see how long you last, seen as how you want to replicate these mammals so much.

You won't last a single night however. Do you plan to just eat the seasonal, local, wild foods which are on offer ? because you certainly won't find enough banana or fruit plantations to sustain your nutrition, opps another hole in the 80/10/10 theory.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 06:17PM by powerlifter.

Funny for all your fearmongering, I am asymptomatic.
No zinc deficiency, dha, protein, etc.
There are known symptoms of these deficiencies plus I and others have had blood tests.

But I suppose we are all lying. Just like chris califano is lying.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny for all your fearmongering, I am
> asymptomatic.
> No zinc deficiency, dha, protein, etc.
> There are known symptoms of these deficiencies
> plus I and others have had blood tests.
>
> But I suppose we are all lying. Just like chris
> califano is lying.

You admit to eating cooked food on here a number of times over the years, so why would i listen or believe anything you say in regards to strict raw vegan diets ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 06:21PM by powerlifter.

Same Old Song And Dance...
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Peace and Love..........John

John your post would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Are you really suggesting that the original poster of this thread could potentially be a fake account just to slander the raw food diet ?

Keep asking questions and critically thinking Ari, good for you . You can't please everyone and especially not zealots who can't accept that a vegan diet isn't for everyone.

<<<Look how much smarter we are than these animals for cooking our food and thus allowing more nutrient density and thus bigger brain development.>>>

Once again Chris, you got it ass backwards. If we put the Human Existence on a Football Field, our brains doubled in size around the 67 Yard Line or two thirds into our Existence, we discovered FIRE around the 87 Yard Line or ~13 Yards away from where we are today. And then, we went another 12 Yards or so down to the 1 Yard Line before we started to COOK our Food consistently with it and that’s when our brains started getting Smaller - NOT Bigger! That means that for 99% of our Existence we Ate our FOOD RAW just like all of the other Animals on this Planet and when we started COOKING our Food with FIRE, that was the Fall of Mankind and that’s when we LOST our Golden Age and created FOOLS like you who REFUSE to come out of Plato’s Cave.

Peace and Love..........John

powerlifter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John your post would be laughable if it wasn't so
> sad.
>
> Are you really suggesting that the original poster
> of this thread could potentially be a fake account
> just to slander the raw food diet ?
>
> Keep asking questions and critically thinking Ari,
> good for you . You can't please everyone and
> especially not zealots who can't accept that a
> vegan diet isn't for everyone.


A raw vegan diet can work for everyone, you just don't want to accept this because you like your animal products. That's your problem, not the raw vegan community's problem.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A raw vegan diet can work for everyone, you just
> don't want to accept this because you like your
> animal products. That's your problem, not the raw
> vegan community's problem.

Zealots like i say, who cannot accept a raw vegan diet isn't for everybody.

I actually do not care for animal foods, which is why i don't tend to consume too much of them anymore. I also don't tend to care for any food, its just food to me. The foods which are appealing/addictive tend to be junk food and artificial.

Also many of us "failed vegans" tried very hard for years to make the diet work.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 07:07PM by powerlifter.