I'm just interested in the full story and what motivates you to go after some more than others. I admittedly don't understand why the soft approach with a fraud of this magnitude, but that's your choice.

Just curious, what did Doug Graham do to get you to show some teeth when you went after him? Like John Rose, he at least purports to eat food.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Different views?" Is that what you call it?
> LOL.
>
> As far as i can see, it is a difference of views.
>
>
> My view is that breatharianism is not possible and
> is very dangerous.
>
> Genesis's view is obviously the opposite and
> unless his views have changed, then he probably
> believes breatharianism is possible, so yeah id
> call that a difference of views.
>
> But so far Genesis hasn't shown any personal
> disrespect to me giving my opinion or asking him
> questions about his health, so i will continue to
> treat him with respect like i would anyone else. I
> don't see what the issue is here HH ?
>
> Ive already said breatharianism, liquidarian and
> extreme dieting are potentially extremely
> dangerous practices in this thread, i think
> everyone here knows my view on the safety and
> validity of these diets, if you think im not being
> harsh enough in my evaluation, i don't know what
> more i could say than the above. But im not away
> to resort to petty insults, if that is what you
> wish for me to do.
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:57PM by Prana.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Im getting mixed messages from your videos though
> Genesis.

Hey, F1, don't answer. It ia troll trap. This dude is not vegan. He eats sardines, eggs, etc. He plays now a "balanced" opinion but it is only to get you engaged.

temp. You are banned from this forum for promoting sardines. Get out. NOUGH SAID

So you're more likely to call out people for being frauds if they "disrespect" you while more likely to take a soft approach to their fraudulent behavior if they're friendly, no matter how dangerous their purported diet is? Of course you're entirely free to do what you want, I just thought that you were more interested in seeking dietary truth than avenging your ego.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm just interested in the full story and what
> > motivates you to go after some more than others.
> I
> > admittedly don't understand why the soft
> approach
> > with a fraud of this magnitude, but that's your
> > choice.
> >
> > Just curious, what did Doug Graham do to get
> you
> > to show some teeth when you went after him?
> Like
> > John Rose, he at least purports to eat food.
>
> Thats a fair question and you'll find the answer
> in members like fresh and panchito, who have made
> my time less than easy here. I really could care
> less about most of these silly fad diets, i think
> there dangerous and newbies don't get to see the
> full picture, so i will say my true opinion on
> these topics.
>
> Would i bother as much if these people didn't keep
> poking sticks at me, probably not. Ive never made
> a single troll thread around here, baiting people
> in the way they have to me. But why shouldn't
> these diets be scientifically critiqued ?
>
> Same goes for John Rose, i had the same respect
> for him as i do any other member that has ever
> been on here, but there is only so many times you
> can be called an idiot, fool or a shill, before
> you start to bite back and i do that by trying to
> debunk these people rather than resorting to silly
> insults.
>
> Again genesis has shown no disrespect personally
> to the questions i asked, so why should i treat
> him with any less respect. I treat people how they
> treat me, the 80/10/10 faction has always for the
> most part treated me abusively because of my
> opinion on their diets.
>
> I understand people have strong opinions, so yeah
> i do feel like i tip toe at times because ive seen
> how upset and wild some of these guys get over a
> simple different diet opinion. At the same time, i
> get on with members like TSM privately no problem
> and he knows my views on his sproutarian diet. It
> doesn't bother him, hes content in his own views.
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:53PM by Prana.

I don't want anything more from you. I simply found your friendly approach to this guy to be surprising. I thought that what galled you was the dangerous hucksterism. It never occurred to me that your primary concern is manners. I'm done with this discussion if you are. Have a nice day and no hard feelings.


temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So you're more likely to call out people for
> being
> > frauds if they "disrespect" you while more
> likely
> > to take a soft approach to their fraudulent
> > behavior if they're friendly, no matter how
> > dangerous their purported diet is? Of course
> > you're entirely free to do what you want, I
> just
> > thought that you were more interested in
> seeking
> > dietary truth than avenging your ego.
>
> No and i knew you would take my post that way.
>
> You know fine well, that i will speak my mind on
> these diets regardless, i could care less how many
> books you've sold or if you claim to be a doctor,
> if i don't feel something is safe, i will say my
> opinion.
>
> Im not afraid to share my opinions on any of these
> diets, why do you think im the "epic-center" of
> so-many of these dramas. But i try to do so in a
> manner that doesn't upset people initially,
> because i know people have strong beliefs.
>
> However those who consistently poke sticks like
> panchito and co, yes i will focus on the likes of
> 80/10/10 and Doug Graham. These people use insults
> towards me, i just make there diets look stupid.
> Its pretty simple, although in the end nobody
> wins.
>
> Again, im agreeing and was the first person to
> post in this thread that breatharianism is a
> fraud. What more do you want from me here Eric ?
>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:53PM by Prana.

Naveena Shine attempted 100 days on nothing but water (and EmergenC, wink wink)...

[www.theguardian.com]

and failed. Not because she was deficient, but instead because of her financial woes.

[www.theguardian.com]

Eh, I don't know. I guess that I just see the breatharian claim to be so overboard that it brings something out in me.

I don't think it's funny or surprising that some people choose not to maintain a healthier diet and go back to cooked pizzas, soy cheese, salted foods and other non-optimal foods. I see no reason to ridicule them. Some folks are clearly struggling with personas they have created and then they evolve to something else. How many people on here haven't tweaked some part of their diet and/or exercise in the last 10 years? I just tweaked my exercise regime 2 months ago.

(Of course I am not, in my view, de-volving, lol)

chris is going to spend the rest of his days
saying that OTHER people need to be STRICT in their diet.

and if you're not STRICT in your diet, it's meaningless.

and that this diet or that diet is UNPROVEN.
chris, your diet is UNPROVEN !

so chris is basing his internet diet critiquing upon the FACT that eating all raw is not easy. so he will endlessly take potshots at everyone and anyone.

anyone can make their life out of that, chris, it's like shooting fish in a barrel - it's like bashing people who say they try to breathe pure air, it's hard to breathe pure air .

do you have anything positive to say, chris?

do you have any idea of how many people have massively healed themselves on raw diets? strict or not strict?

you want to save people from bad diets?
maybe you could go on oprah! is she still on tv?
what about ellen?

this way you won't miss anyone who is contemplating any of these crazy diets.

or do you just want to debate people and show how allegedly smart you are?

you want to say people have lied about their diet?
welcome to the world of humans.

here's a better idea, take care of yourself and trust that others will do the same.

you want to talk about babies who have died on X diet?
babies die on ALL diets ! more distorting from chris.

your problem is not your viewpoint, it's the fact that your statements about things like taurine and efas are wrong, and you preferentially bash vegan and raw, when all diets have issues.

you tried a diet and it didn't work.

get over it. or just continue doing what you're doing, which is bashing diets that are working for people, but are allegedly unproven.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My statements are wrong according to you about
> diet, yet you never back up with any reasoning why
> my opinions are wrong. Tell me ?, show me an
> alternative study, give me some input on an
> intellectual level ?.

you bring up taurine and efa's when they are NOT a problem for virtually anyone. you merely use this as a way to bash a diet that didn't work for you.
and your studies, even in your link are NOT reliable as was explained to you on the vegsource board by multiple people.
but you are a one track mind and unwilling to see.



>
> My facts are just wrong according to you, yet my
> facts are backed up with reliable studies, when
> yours aren't. Again check my article - 6 Common
> Nutrient Deficiencies On A Vegan Diet . If you
> feel there is anything wrong in the article and
> can provide proof, i will be happy to reconsider
> my thoughts and change them where applicable.

nonsense. that has already been done on the vegsource board multiple times and you refused to see it.



>
> The old school 1950s natural hygiene mantra is
> out. We have moved on 50+ years of nutritional
> science since then and know about 3000 times what
> we do about food, which foods and nutrition in
> general. Yet people like Doug Graham are still
> stuck in the caveman days or pre-caveman should i
> say.
>
> These people can't even tell you where to get
> vitamin B12 on an raw vegan 80/10/10 diet. Dont
> worry, im not who cares lol. Eat your fruits and
> vegetables, if only health was as simple as that.
>

you are obsessed with b12.

I say take a pill if needed.
get tested if you want to get tested.

why is this so hard for you to understand?


> Thats before we even think about individuals with
> diseases or health conditions with these type of
> extreme diets. These people don't have a clue how
> half these conditions are caused or how to treat
> them. Nor are they qualified too.
>
> Ahh don't get me started fresh.

there is nothing extreme about raw plants. nothing.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you actually bother to read the source studies
> that were all referenced.
>
> In your mind they may be a problem for no one,
> according to reliable studies such as epic-oxford
> the largest vegetarian and vegan study done to
> date, these nutrient deficiencies are common
> problems for the majority of vegans.
>
> Don't blame the messenger, be angry at science and
> the studies. Its not my fault, i too was suckered
> in by these vegan diets for 3 + years.
>

----------
Your problem is -- if we go beyond having a conversation with a banned, rule-breaking member -- you are extrapolating these studies. Let's say there are six common nutrient deficiencies among vegans. Let's say that's true. Let's forget the fact that omnivores typically have eight-plus deficiencies (better not fall into their trap for 3+ years). Six common nutrient deficiencies does NOT equal impossible, does not equal dangerous, does not equal extreme, and any other adjectives that you commonly try to brainwash people with on here and other forums over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:53PM by Prana.

temp has valuable insight for the forum.
I petition for temp to become permanent.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Your problem is -- if we go beyond having a
> > conversation with a banned, rule-breaking
> member
> > -- you are extrapolating these studies. Let's
> say
> > there are six common nutrient deficiencies
> among
> > vegans. Let's say that's true. Let's forget
> the
> > fact that omnivores typically have eight-plus
> > deficiencies (better not fall into their trap
> for
> > 3+ years). Six common nutrient deficiencies
> does
> > NOT equal impossible, does not equal dangerous,
> > does not equal extreme, and any other
> adjectives
> > that you commonly try to brainwash people with
> on
> > here and other forums over and over and over
> and
> > over and over and over and over again.
>
> Did you actually bother to read my article ?
>
> I gave ways to rectify some of these ways
> completely vegan such as in iodines case with sea
> vegetables.
>
> I stated its not impossible to have a healthy
> fatty acid as a vegan, just more difficult. Same
> with iron.
>
> I was more than fair in the article i feel.


---
No, I don't give you more traffic to your website. Regardless if you feel your article is fair, your rhetoric on here has been that the raw vegan diet is dangerous, impossible for many, if not all, impossible for all long-term, and you've just alluded to a baby dying from it. LOL Is this the baby that was fed apple juice (canned), fish oil -maybe they forgot sardines, because we all know that infants need canned goods. New mothers should just get a pantry full of jarred items for their party instead of a new stroller. lol!

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
baseless "facts" that much of
> the raw food movement has been built on all these
> years.

----
I sure don't need an article to do what makes perfect sense to me as a logical person, is healthy, nutritionally adequate, and tastes delicious.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Haha so your just fighting and antagonizing me for
> no reason, yet haven't actually read my article
> and reasoning.
>
> Im sorry but lol.
>
> You can't get an intellectual debate like they say
> with many around here, just mindless drivel.
> Whatever, enjoy fighting with people and you
> haven't even read or willing to listen to there
> point of view.
>
> At least i take the time to read your posts and
> point of view. Lazy sod, but your willing to sit
> fight for 2-3+ pages.
>


--
Sorry, but I read links at my own leisure and choosing and especially only from people who know the difference between there, their, and they're. "Article" lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:52PM by Prana.

Post it in its entirety here.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The issue was more that you were antagonizing and
> trying to fight with me as usual, yet you hadn't
> even bothered to read it or give it a glance over
> even.
>
> Whether it is total crap to you or not is
> irrelevant, you didn't even bother to read it, but
> were willing to chime in as usual.
>


Of course I'm willing to chime in. This isn't Powerlifer's board or "Temp's" board and we aren't required to read your website to come here. This is a raw vegan board and that's why I come here.

By "the issue," you mean YOUR issue. I don't have a problem on this thread and I'm not the one name-calling (which you were reported for, btw).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:52PM by Prana.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No one was asking you to read my website or
> article. The issue like i say was your first post
> in this thread, was making sweeping
> generalizations about me based on my article and
> yet you hadn't even bothered to read the thing.
>
> Sheesh, just keep quiet if you haven't bothered to
> take the 2 seconds it would take to read. I
> wouldn't mind hearing your true thoughts on the
> "article" if you actually had read it.
>
> Your basing your stereotypical anti-vegan thoughts
> on me again, yet i made you look silly because if
> you had actually read the article, i recommended a
> number of vegan ways to rectify these potential
> issues like stated above or said they were
> problems relevant to non-vegans too.
>
> This is where this place just gets silly.
>

----
I look silly? This is my first post in this thread wherein you are now attempting to skew the facts to say I was making "sweeping generalizations" about you, where you aren't even referenced or quoted. Listen, pal, not everything has something to do with you. I know that may hurt, but it's true.

This is the exact post and it's unedited, let alone not edited 14 times.

"I don't think it's funny or surprising that some people choose not to maintain a healthier diet and go back to cooked pizzas, soy cheese, salted foods and other non-optimal foods. I see no reason to ridicule them. Some folks are clearly struggling with personas they have created and then they evolve to something else. How many people on here haven't tweaked some part of their diet and/or exercise in the last 10 years? I just tweaked my exercise regime 2 months ago. smiling smiley"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2014 11:52PM by Prana.

Stop making every damn thread around here about me then, because it sickens me. I just want to talk about health, i don't want every thread to become john rose vs me or the 80/10/10 crew against me. Virtually one and the same, all fruit based raw foodists, the rest i get on very well with, despite our dietary differences.

Let me have my view, like you do yours.

But im not aloud to do that, whether that's been raw fermented foods, raw spices, raw fresh culinary herbs, sea vegetables. Ive always been met with an air of opposition on here from a minority, people like yourself often just look for a fight with me for the hell of it and tonight is one of those.

You just prove to me, that you were willing to antagonize, comment, generalize, yet hadn't actually read my article. So yeah i did make you look silly because based on what you were saying you were just trying to make me look unfair and anti-vegan as usual, yet half my solutions were vegan or fair to veganism by saying that they can be healthy or normal iron etc. Or that other diets are at risk of these deficiencies and so on. Had you bothered to read, you would have known that though.

You don't give me a chance.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2014 10:57PM by temp.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop making every damn thread around here about me
> then,

---
ahem, says the banned member who comes back and filabusters every thread.

temporary broken record,

>Did you actually bother to read the source studies that were all referenced.

yes

>In your mind they may be a problem for no one, according to reliable studies such as epic-oxford the largest vegetarian and vegan study done to date, these nutrient deficiencies are common problems for the majority of vegans and even vegetarians.


all diets are subject to deficiencies.

the oxford study did not study raw fooders.
a study of vegans who are deficient says nothing about what we are talking about here, which is RAW FOOD.

but I have told you this before, and you think it irrelevant.
you can not apply that study on COOKED vegans to the dietary aspirations of people here on a raw food diet.

this is a raw food board.

raw food provides the best opportunity to have enough nutrients of all kinds, and not too much .



>Don't blame the messenger, be angry at science and the studies. Its not my fault, i too was suckered in by these vegan diets for 3 + years.


I explained to you the various mistakes you made.
you are blind to them.


>I gave ways to rectify some of these issues completely vegan such as in iodines case with sea vegetables. I even stated iodine deficiency was something that didn't just effect vegans,


"just that they were at an increased risk because they tend to remove certain iodine rich foods. "


your conclusion above is false and unsupported by any evidence.


>I stated its not impossible to have a healthy fatty acid balance as a vegan, just more difficult. Same with iron etc and gave tips how vegans could increase absorption of non-heme iron with vitamin C rich foods.

no it is not MORE difficult. your conclusion is based upon false assumptions
about needs, intakes and you have shown no evidence regarding an intelligent raw food diet having problems with fatty acid balance. None.

>I was more than fair in the article i feel. I backed everything up with reliable studies also, so its not like the baseless "facts" that much of the raw food movement has been built on all these years.

one of your studies was a study of , what 5 people?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2014 11:41PM by fresh.

How do you get around the need for dietary cholesterol? It is a vitamin D precursor and steroid hormone building block, isn't it? I'm not trying to be some fancy-shmancy know-it-all here. Just asking an honest question of the vegans. It seems like that deficiency would catch up to vegans in the long-term.

The human body makes it's own cholesterol. There is no need to eat other animal's cholesterol.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you get around the need for dietary
> cholesterol? It is a vitamin D precursor and
> steroid hormone building block, isn't it?

"Given the capability of all tissues to synthesize sufficient cholesterol for their metabolic and structural needs, there is no evidence for a biological requirement for dietary cholesterol."

[www.nap.edu]

The Tarahumara still eat meat. It's not fair to use them when talking about veganism. [en.wikipedia.org]

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How do you get around the need for dietary
> > cholesterol? It is a vitamin D precursor and
> > steroid hormone building block, isn't it?
>
> "Given the capability of all tissues to synthesize
> sufficient cholesterol for their metabolic and
> structural needs, there is no evidence for a
> biological requirement for dietary cholesterol."
>
> [www.nap.edu]
> ge=546



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 02:11AM by HH.

This looks like a better source: [www.health.harvard.edu]

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This looks like a better source:
> [www.health.harvard.edu]
> ng_Cholesterol.htm


From that link - "Cholesterol is so important to the body that it makes it itself—Mother Nature doesn't leave it up to humans to get whatever they need from diet alone. So even if you ate a completely cholesterol-free diet, your body would make the approximately 1,000 mg it needs to function properly. Your body has the ability to regulate the amount of cholesterol in the blood, producing more when your diet doesn't provide adequate amounts. The regulation of cholesterol synthesis is an elegant process that is tightly controlled."

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you get around the need for dietary
> cholesterol? It is a vitamin D precursor and
> steroid hormone building block, isn't it? I'm not
> trying to be some fancy-shmancy know-it-all here.
> Just asking an honest question of the vegans. It
> seems like that deficiency would catch up to
> vegans in the long-term.

I would say cholesterol is low on the list potential vegan problems to worry about, but it is there.

The body or should i say the liver produces its own cholesterol as others have said. The problem is that in times of chronic stress, inflammation(cholesterol is released as a healing agent) or injury, then the body might not be able to produce enough cholesterol to satisfy demands, thus dietary cholesterol may become essential in these times.

After all, cholesterol is a raw building block involved not only in adrenal hormone synthesis but also sex hormone such as estrogen and testosterone.

Waning libido and sexual dysfunction are not uncommon symptoms that vegans complain of. Neither is adrenal fatigue, being that cholesterol is vital for adrenal hormone synthesis, Dr Wilson states he rarely sees vegetarians or vegans recover from adrenal fatigue truly in his practice. Low cholesterol can be as bad as high. Although low levels of zinc play a role here also.

Overall cholesterol is vital and the body produces its own. Whether you make enough cholesterol to waive dietary intake, only you will know.

On the other end of the scale SAD diet wise, these people often get too much dietary cholesterol, but even then its still not that big a factor in heart disease research is now showing us. Infact over half of heart attacks happen in those with low or normal cholesterol levels.

It is inflammation which is the real culprit in arterial plaque formation. If the arterial lining is damaged from factors such as high blood pressure, diabetes or elevated homo-cysteine levels(a particular vegan concern) for example, which like i say causes inflammation to the arterial lining, then cholesterol is released as a healing agent.

The problem is when these conditions like diabetes or high blood pressure, which are causing the inflammation are left un-treated, cholesterol is constantly being released as a healing agent by the body to tackle the inflammation and hence begins to build up. Maintaining a healthy inflammatory state is very important in regards to a number of diseases not just cardiovascular, but also auto-immune, neurological conditions and so much more.

Cholesterol has been the boogeyman for years and the myth is largely reinforced by the pharmaceutical industry, who are more than happy to provide you with cholesterol lowering drugs. Something a healthy fiber rich and majority plant based diet can achieve without the number of side effects that come with these statin type drugs, which have actually been proven to increase risk of heart failure might i add, they deplete co-enzyme q10 etc. If anyone is on statins, id ask there professional or doctor about ubiquinol, which is a reduced form of co-enzyme q10, that is 8 times better absorbed and can raise plasma levels quickly.

But yeah a healthy body, liver and thyroid will regulate cholesterol metabolism. Overall it is inflammation that is the main culprit in the development of cardiovascular diseases.

I do however believe, especially in times of chronic stress, adrenal fatigue, inflammation, injury etc that exogenous or dietary cholesterol is essential.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2014 08:35AM by temp.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The human body makes it's own cholesterol. There
> is no need to eat other animal's cholesterol.

I should have mentioned that the body does need dietary carbon to do this with, though, so breatharians will be unable the escape deathly problems.