I came accross an interesting statement by David Wolfe.

"...I believe all elements that appear in an animal must somewhere appear in a plant and in fact that’s been scientifically validated. There’s not one vitamin, not one mineral, not one nutrient that exists in an animal that does not exist in a plant somewhere on the planet ..."

His statement was in response to a question if flesh foods were needed to maintain human health. It sounds like its true, as I am aware of a number of plant sources for nutrients which are traditionally associated with animal foods. I would be interested in exploring all the possibilities as to what is necessary to consume, or what can be obtained through behavior as well. (such as vitamin D by exposure to sunlight)

Its probably not as easy of a question as it might first sound. Although it might be possible to obtain all that you need by plants, what can be done to help make it a reality in ones life? Without exceeding the limits of ones pocketbook, or becoming neurotic tabulating figures, and also letting it become more natural and pleasurable. I don't think any of these necessarily conflict.

I have tried going raw vegan on and off, and I would like to try again. I stopped because I had a few unpleasant side effects. Mostly feeling a bit spacy, and also something which seems to fit the description of detox. But overall there were a number of positives which I would like again.

So, what types of foods are helpful for anyone who would like to maintain a raw vegan diet for a lifetime?

Fruit.

Bryan,
Fruit contains all that a person needs?

If you are transitioning, I would eat a WIDE variety of foods....and stick to the fruits and vegetables that you LOVE.....and just focus on increasing your overall percentage of all-raw every week or so....by perhaps 1-2%. At that rate...you can transition fully within one year...if that is comfortable to you. You'll have to regulate your own detox. If you feel VERY comfortable, then you can increase the pace. If you feel rather uncomfortable...then you can go back to a level of eating that you ARE very comfortable with...and set smaller goals. It's all a process.

-In the longer-term, many raw food people find they want to eat simpler. You can try light fasting, mono-eating, and simple fruit-eating as you feel comfortable. These practices can be helpful if you are already eating very healthy for a lifetime.

-David Z. Mason

As I understand your question, you are contemplating the leap to veganism and are wondering if you will get all your nutrients.

When I made the leap I had similar concerns, after all it is common knowledge that you will DIE if you don't eat lots of protein and calcium from animal sources. Well, I kind of held my breath and took the plunge and watched what happend and I didn't die, in fact my health improved, my skin cleared up. I haven't eaten significant amounts of animal food since 1998. I also think veganism can be done in an unhealthy way if you were like me and ate way too much grains, I would eat a sandwitch for lunch and pasta for dinner, I think I got lazy because I was the only one I had to cook for.

Protein - the only thing to be scared about with protein is in getting too much of it. Too much disrupts the PH balance and makes the body acidic which causes cancer. In Fit For Life it says that we use 23 grams of protein per day, and that the RDA levels were doubled for "safety".

Calcium - if you don't overeat protein, you don't need a lot of calcium to alkalize the acidic protein. 300-600 mgs should be plenty, I saw a chart listing the bone health of people around the world and countries where the intake was ~300 mg were the healthiest and countries where they ate ~1000 were the unhealthiest.
[www.fao.org]

B12 - There is a big deal made about B12 and the vegan diets lack of it, but it is less well known that SAD people also can be B12 deficient. I think this might have something to do with the antibiotics in animal products.

As far as what to eat, you need energy, and fruit is great for energy. I also think green are great too, but I'm not going to eat them more than once per day and definitely not in the morning, that would stop my detox cycle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2006 11:02AM by tropical.

Very interesting, tropical. I'll be checking out "Fit for life".

SAD people can be B12 deficient because B12 has harder to survive in an acidic environment.

"I also think green are great too, but I'm not going to eat them more than once per day and definitely not in the morning, that would stop my detox cycle."

Yikes, I have a big green smoothie in the AM, am relatively new at this but am "born again" since starting green smoothies and raw diet. What is a detox cycle?

Thanks,
Dulcet

So it's the acidic environment that does B12 in, Thanks rraw.

Dulset, if you scroll down to the Feb 22 article it goes into the 3 body cycles, how to use them to your best advantage. This article actually says that greens are OK to eat during the elimination cycle, but in Fit For Life and in other places I have read to eat nothing but fresh, ripe fruit
[karenknowler.typepad.com]

noon to 8 p.m.-- appropriation (eating and digestion);
8 p.m. to 4 a.m.--assimilation (absorption and use);
4 a.m. to noon--elimination (of body wastes and food debris)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2006 06:37PM by tropical.

Thanks, will read it.

Tropical,
Thank you for the input. I'm not all that worried about calcium and protein. I know that most people consume way too much of both of them. I haven't had a glass of milk in several years. The last time I had milk I found it totally revolting. I have had sprinkles of hard dried cheese on salads, but thats about it. I certainly wish my mother could accept this information. She drinks several glasses a day, and takes around 1,000 miligrams of calcium in pills. She really, really believes she needs this much, and if she doesn't her bones will dry up and blow away!

I am more concerned about particular forms of fatty acids, such as DHA and EPA. I know that DHA is available in golden algae oil, it would be interesting to find it in a whole living food. EPA is said to be present in purslane, I imagine that its also available in related plants. And believe it or not I am also more concerned about the lack of dietary cholestrol in a vegan diet. Since this is a vegan web board I won't go into detail. I know that cholestrol can be made in the body, and hopefully we can produce all that we need on vegan diet.

The b12 thing seems to be the last 'I gotcha now' kind of nutrient for meat eaters, or so it seems. It seems a bit like some fear tactic, if you don't eat this...that will happen. It always seems like people are afraid to admit that they like meat for whatever reason. Also that they don't want to give it up, and think that they don't need to.

I have really been consuming A LOT less animal products over the years. Giving up diary has been relatively easy. Going completely vegan and staying that way has been more difficult. I can't seem to go more than about 3 weeks completely raw and vegan. I get too hungry without the addition of a few raw eggs or occational fish. It might be just a mental thing. Please don't be too critical, its a far, far cry from eating meat and or dairy at every single meal! I can't believe that I ever thought that was good or necessary! Maybe in the future I won't ever have to do eggs or fish, and wonder why I ever thought that was good.

B12 is the main thing. Yes plants do have some if the soil has bacteria, but it might be 1/100th to 1/1000th as much as in flesh foods. USDA nutrient database says zero but it's probably in the nanogram level instead of micrograms.

SADs can develop B12 deficiencies, especially when they get over 60 as their supply of intrinsic factor which helps them cleave the B12 from the animal foods diminishes. When people visit the doctor and are diagnosed with B12 deficiencies, the doctor doesn't give them steak. (S)he gives them a B12 injection!

Some vegans might not be really honest about how they get their B12 (sex) or engage in unusual and distateful personal practices. It's best to play it safe and take a pill or drops or something like that.

You can take algae-based DHA if it's a concern. You can make 1.5 EPA from 10 g of ALA from flax oil or seeds.

Protein is not a problem on a varied vegan diet with adequate kcals but some calorie-restricted fruitarians might not get enough of lysine, methionine, and cysteine.

I think the calcium RDA is a little too high. On an alkaline diet there is probably going to be a better balance and 600-800 mg/day might be a good aim, but you'd have to track your levels to be sure it works for you. On a SAD grain based meat based diet, 600-800 mg/day would be insufficient for many people.

D you can get from the sun or take D2 from mushroom sources.

Zinc is tricky. I can't find a good solution to the zinc problem. It's hard to meet publshed zinc needs without a lot of greens on a vegan diet. Pumpkin seeds are a good source, too.

You never have to do eggs or fish, that is a mental thing. It has nothing to do with hunger, since you have access to many other kcal sources. If you found those foods repulsive in the mental, moral, environmental, ethical, etc. stances, you would have zero desire for them, and it might even make you sick or depressed to think that other people eat them.

If you find you need to eat meat cycically every three weeks or so, consider that you might have some hungry microform that is going to die off if you don't eat whatever it is in the meat they need to survive.

Sometimes our cravings or sense of unease could be those microscopic critters dying off and begging for certain chemicals (or ?????) just to survive. We don't realize that such a thing can cause us to feel a bit "off." If you can put off eating the meat you might feel a bit worse in the short term while those guys die off. Ultimately you would feel better if those critters were not in your body.

I am not sure if this is explained clearly, but I have read about this several places.

How long does it take for them to die off? I know thats a difficult question, given that you know little about me, and you certainly don't have any samples from me to examine! Thats something I never entertained.

Arugula,
Unfortunately, I had some bits of anemic chicken in a salad this evening. I think the salad would have tasted better without them. I will have to try green salads only when I go out, see if that makes any difference. The production of animal products could be greatly improved thats for sure. Maybe its better if one doesn't eat them. I do find the people who eat alot of meat usually don't smell so great, especially the breath. My partner has told me that my breath sometimes smells bad like that, but that it never smelled when I'm completely raw. He says my breath smells ok with some raw animal foods. Sometimes when I see people eating meat I am really revolted, or when they eat jelly donuts. I don't know if its a moral issue for me, just a matter of smell, taste etc...

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> B12 is the main thing. Yes plants do have some if
> the soil has bacteria, but it might be 1/100th to
> 1/1000th as much as in flesh foods. USDA nutrient
> database says zero but it's probably in the
> nanogram level instead of micrograms.
>
> SADs can develop B12 deficiencies, especially when
> they get over 60 as their supply of intrinsic
> factor which helps them cleave the B12 from the
> animal foods diminishes. When people visit the
> doctor and are diagnosed with B12 deficiencies,
> the doctor doesn't give them steak. (S)he gives
> them a B12 injection!
>
> Some vegans might not be really honest about how
> they get their B12 (sex) or engage in unusual and
> distateful personal practices. It's best to play
> it safe and take a pill or drops or something like
> that.
>
> You can take algae-based DHA if it's a concern.
> You can make 1.5 EPA from 10 g of ALA from flax
> oil or seeds.
>
> Protein is not a problem on a varied vegan diet
> with adequate kcals but some calorie-restricted
> fruitarians might not get enough of lysine,
> methionine, and cysteine.
>
> I think the calcium RDA is a little too high. On
> an alkaline diet there is probably going to be a
> better balance and 600-800 mg/day might be a good
> aim, but you'd have to track your levels to be
> sure it works for you. On a SAD grain based meat
> based diet, 600-800 mg/day would be insufficient
> for many people.
>
> D you can get from the sun or take D2 from
> mushroom sources.
>
> Zinc is tricky. I can't find a good solution to
> the zinc problem. It's hard to meet publshed zinc
> needs without a lot of greens on a vegan diet.
> Pumpkin seeds are a good source, too.
>
> You never have to do eggs or fish, that is a
> mental thing. It has nothing to do with hunger,
> since you have access to many other kcal sources.
> If you found those foods repulsive in the mental,
> moral, environmental, ethical, etc. stances, you
> would have zero desire for them, and it might even
> make you sick or depressed to think that other
> people eat them.


Ha! Oops! I posted this reply in the wrong topic!