I’ve been wanting to update my file on B12 Analogues for some time now and since I’ve noticed it mentioned several times lately, I thought this might be a good time to see what you guys think and to see if any of y’all are aware that all of this started with Victor Herbert and that’s important to factor in because Herbert has been massively discredited and cannot be trusted.

To start off this discussion, I’ll include a couple of old Posts from my file on B12 Analogues followed by some of my notes on Victor Herbert.

[www.living-foods.com]
Dave Klein

I have eaten a lot of spirulina in the past and had nothing but improved health. I don't put much stock into the analog theory, but others do and this is still worth investigating. Maybe, if the analog theory is valid, despite the spirulina "analog", the right kind of B-12 is still getting into the cells?
[www.living-foods.com]

[www.vegsource.com]
B12 analogues
John Coleman
November 06, 1999 at 14:36:58 PST

I keep reading that B12 analogues in some sea foods or fermented foods make the active B12 in them unavailable. Where is the evidence of this?

I have been lead to understand that the human body has specific enzymes (plasma transport proteins transcobalamins I and III) that will remove B12 analogues from circulation so that they can be dumped out via the bile.

Most B12 sources, including meat, also conatin about 80% of the B12 as analogues. Is it the case that only certain analogues found in sea foods/fermented produce are the blockers? Many animals, including humans, produce a lot of B12 analogues in their guts, and so mechanisms must exist to remove them.

The O. malhamensis test has demonstrated that spirulina, a sea food, has useful B12 activity for humans, despite its B12 analogue content.

Is his whole B12 analogues issue just another myth from the pro meat angle?

John Coleman
[www.vegsource.com]

For all of y’all who do not know who Victor Herbert is, the following comes from "Racketeering In Medicine-The Suppression of Alternatives" by James P. Carter, M.D., Dr. P.H.:

"Such is not the case with NCAHF (The National Council Against Health Fraud) and the newcomer on the block, the CHIRL (The Consumer Health Information Research Institute). It is nearly impossible to determine where their money comes from; it is even more difficult to determine the financial support for individual quackbuster, such as VICTOR HERBERT, STEPHEN BARRETT, and John Renner. The "Vegetarian Times" expose is conspicuous for its absence of information on the funding sources of these organizations and individuals, in marked contrast to the openly-acknowledged business and industrial supporters for the ACSH (The American Council on Science and Health).

The CHIRI has for its constituency the health insurance industry. It purports to serve that industry in an advisory capacity, by approving or disapproving a particular treatment provided by a health-care provider. It plans to serve as a health-insurance consultant regarding legitimacy of certain disabilities and health practitioners. An example of an "illegal" disability would be chronic fatigue syndrome. CHIRI is also said to have a computerized list of more than 40,000 American physicians and other medical practitioners who are suspected of using "questionable medical practices." ..." p. 45

More on Victor Herbert:

Dr. VICTOR HERBERT--A "LEGEND IN HIS ON MIND"

"The most effective way to introduce Dr. Victor Herbert to the reader is to allow Nobel Prize winner Linus Pauling to speak. When asked under oath in Dr. Warren Levin's trial to explain Dr. Herbert, Pauling made the following statements:

(p. 1419-21): I have known [Dr. Victor Herbert] for about 21 years now. I don't think he is a scientist. It seems to me he has little understanding of science and little ability in that field.

(p. 1424): Victor Herbert, you know he is not a scientist; he doesn't know how to assess evidence. I don't think he knows much about biostastics. He just says he refuses to look at the evidence. I have sent him my analysis of 14 controlled trials; he just refuses to look at it. He continues to make false statements about vitamin C and cancer, and vitamins in general.

(p. 1451I): If you can believe what he says, there is no doubt that his beliefs are not based upon facts; that there is some sort of bias; some sort of other activating influence. He is not a scientist in the sense of a person who is able to carry out reliable experiments.

(p. 1427): What do I see? I see in magazines and in newspapers that Victor Herbert stated that values greater than RDA have no value for persons in health or in disease. Perfectly completely false. I can't understand this fellow. Well, I wouldn't go to him to be my physician. I can answer that.

(p. 1428-29): Double-blind controlled studies are not the only meaningful way to determine what is effective in medicine. There are some situations in which it is just not possible to carry out double-blind controls by ethical physicians.

(p. 1432): Vitamin C; it is known that it has no toxicity; it doesn't cause kidney stones. This is the standard sort of false statement Victor Herbert makes; that you may get kidney stones. There is no evidence.

"Dr Linus Pauling is an extraordinary credible witness. He has the distinction of being the only scientist to have ever received two unshared Nobel Prizes. He also holds no less than forty-eight honorary doctoral degrees. Mr. Harris, Dr. Levin's attorney, reportedly asked Dr. Herbert , facetiously, 'How many Nobel Prizes do you have, Dr. Herbert?' He also described Dr. Herbert as a "legend in his own mind."

The ubiquitous Victor Herbert pops up in sundry legal locations to give quantities of testimony (for a high fee) against leading alternative practitioners." pp. 112-113

"Under police protection, here are some pointers he (Victor Herbert) presented to his distinguished audience:

'Our food supply is safe...It is to draw any conclusions regarding the safety of any food from the presence or absence of a single carcinogen...Forget the fiber baloney!'

"Essentially his message, for which he is paid a substantial honorarium by whatever special interest group has hired him, remains unchanged. ... Herbert the quackbuster was summoned to bust the chelation "quacks." It is only a matter of time before such misguided quackbusting backfires on Organized Medicine. Who sets Herbert up to this? While alternative practitioners take the wraft of the American public, I envision the impervious, teflon-coated Victor Herbert basking in the Caribbean, enjoying the fruits of his life's labor--quackbusting." p. 114

"There is more to learn about Victor Herbert, this eccentric puppet-like character with strings covertly pulled by business forces that have every intention of holding on to their monopoly in the "business of medicine as usual." In a 1977 meeting at the Brooklyn VA Hospital, Dr. Herbert described himself: 'I'm a VA doctor who came here from six years at the Bronx Hospital, where I was Chief of Hematology and the Nutrition Laboratory." (It should be noted that the Bronx VA was one of the worst hospitals in the entire VA system. Filthy and with rats sometimes visible on the wards, it was the hospital depicted in the movie Born on the Fourth of July.) Dr. Herbert continued: ' I love being a veteran's doctor. My mother was an army lawyer and my father was leader of the First Army Band. I served as a Green Beret lieutenant colonel. On reserve duty, I used to parachute with the Eleventh Special Forces out of Miller Army Field on Staten Island. I was mustered out of the army at Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn.'

"Dr. Victor Herbert's actual service record states something quite different. This expert witness, paid to wage court battles against the alternative medicine movement, apparently mis-states his professional background and makes outrageously inaccurate statements on non-medical matters as well. Let the reader note the following documentation from the VA obtained from lawsuits against Dr. Herbert, summarizing his actual military record:

May 14, 1945-December 8, 1946: Army, parachutist, rank of PFC, 1.5 years
June 5, 1952-July 1, 1954: US Army, medical officer, 2 years
Total time served: 3.5 years

This far less prestigious record contrasts sharply with his apparent psychological fantasies of what he would like to be, providing proof of his DISHONESTY. Does he imagine that he was a Green Beret lieutenant colonel?

In actuality Victor Herbert is a medical propagandist who plays hard-ball and uses questionable tactics that are way out of line. His expert witness testimony is either inaccurate, twisted or so overly simplistic as to not represent valid medical fact." pp. 117-118

"Under examination by Harris, Herbert acknowledged--among other things--falsehood in his application to medical school. (He had lied about his financial status.) Harris also got him to acknowledge that he had been asked to resign from a Veteran's Administration Hospital post in Brooklyn." p. 133

"Herbert is a master of the snow-job, in pulling the wool over a court's eyes. The court doesn't know and understand medicine, and Herbert succeeds in blatant character assassination of good doctors.

Herbert had no difficulty in making up a diagnosis: 'Mega doses of vitamin C can cause deposits of oxalates in the heart, which among other things can produce first-degree heart block.' He refers to this condition as metastatic oxalosis. No one else, however, has ever heard of metastatic oxalosis. ... He (Herbert) also presented a book in which one chapter made reference to metabolic oxalosis. Who was the author of that chapter? None other than Victor Herbert. ... This is just one example of how Herbert is unable to differentiate (his own)) theory from practice. And we need to remember that he is paid to say this pseudo-science. pp. 134-135

"The reader will recall the statement by Organized Med's mouthpiece, Victor Herbert, in his Ontario address, "that the most effective method" of getting rid of a therapy like chelation therapy is by taking the practitioner to court and that the second way to fight the problem is by "lobbying for anti-quack legislation." ...as long as "liars can figure" and as long as people like Victor Herbert can be paid by Organized Medicine to haul practitioners into court on accusations of fraud, pretending to argue valid science before naive scientifically-illiterate panels and judges." pp. 158-159

"Why doesn't the Commissioner of the FDA heed this? Instead, he helps the likes of Dr. Herbert, who is in cahoots with the New York Board of Medical Quality Assurance to harass physicians like Dr. Gonzales who use effective, safe (key words used in FDA evaluation procedures) treatments which have proven benefit in the treatment of certain types of cancer." p. 184

Peace and Love..........John

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve been wanting to update my file on B12
> Analogues for some time now and since I’ve
> noticed it mentioned several times lately, I
> thought this might be a good time to see what you
> guys think and to see if any of y’all are aware
> that all of this started with Victor Herbert and
> that’s important to factor in because Herbert
> has been massively discredited and cannot be
> trusted.


Victor Herbert's work is fascinating. None-the-less, some of his conclusions are rather questionable. For eg, from memory, his research states that a human can get enough B12 from only a fraction of the RDA, but in reality this doesn't appear to be the case at all. Truth be known, no-one really knows the correct amount of B12 needed because many factors come into play here. For eg, analogues are said to increase need for real B12 (but as is stated later in your files, where is the proof of this). In other cases high homocysteine levels in vegans/vegetarians are recommended to be overcome by higher intake of B12, but homocysteine is influeneced by many factors. In other words...B12 is not a mathmatical equation, adequate needs are based on individual make-up and lifestyle.




>



> B12 analogues
> John Coleman
> November 06, 1999 at 14:36:58 PST
>
> I keep reading that B12 analogues in some sea
> foods or fermented foods make the active B12 in
> them unavailable. Where is the evidence of this?

That is a good point. The only thing we can conclude from population studies on B12 is that ferments and water plants don't provide enough B12. But then again, another issue rises with the science literature...that is that much of the nutrient testing is blood levels and not absorption levels. We are gettong science papers stating things like - meat eaters have higher B12 than vegans, and meat/dairy eaters get more calcium, B2 than vegans. Meat/dairy eaters may have more calcium in the blood, but how absorbable is it??? Meat eaters are said to have higher B12 levels, but much is killed by cooking, and how well is the remaining absorbed? Brian Clement says meat eaters are lower in B12 than vegans. Personally, l see many people going from SAD to raw and they quickly have B12 issues. Lots of cloudy issues here.


>
> I have been lead to understand that the human body
> has specific enzymes (plasma transport proteins
> transcobalamins I and III) that will remove B12
> analogues from circulation so that they can be
> dumped out via the bile.



Apparently the body has about 90% + of B12 analogues. Yes, it brings up the question, are these analogues proven to block real B12.



>
> Most B12 sources, including meat, also conatin
> about 80% of the B12 as analogues. Is it the case
> that only certain analogues found in sea
> foods/fermented produce are the blockers? Many
> animals, including humans, produce a lot of B12
> analogues in their guts, and so mechanisms must
> exist to remove them.


That's the big question.

>
> The O. malhamensis test has demonstrated that
> spirulina, a sea food, has useful B12 activity for
> humans, despite its B12 analogue content.


Other science papers prove the opposite. But whatever, one study done showed that people who ate nori and chlorella had twice the level of B12 than vegetarians who didn't eat these foods.


>
> Is his whole B12 analogues issue just another myth
> from the pro meat angle?


Good point to put in the back of the mind.



>
> For all of y’all who do not know who Victor
> Herbert is, the following comes from "Racketeering
> In Medicine-The Suppression of Alternatives" by
> James P. Carter, M.D., Dr. P.H.:
>
> "Such is not the case with NCAHF (The National
> Council Against Health Fraud) and the newcomer on
> the block, the CHIRL (The Consumer Health
> Information Research Institute). It is nearly
> impossible to determine where their money comes
> from; it is even more difficult to determine the
> financial support for individual quackbuster, such
> as VICTOR HERBERT, STEPHEN BARRETT, and John
> Renner. The "Vegetarian Times" expose is
> conspicuous for its absence of information on the
> funding sources of these organizations and
> individuals, in marked contrast to the
> openly-acknowledged business and industrial
> supporters for the ACSH (The American Council on
> Science and Health).
>
> The CHIRI has for its constituency the health
> insurance industry. It purports to serve that
> industry in an advisory capacity, by approving or
> disapproving a particular treatment provided by a
> health-care provider. It plans to serve as a
> health-insurance consultant regarding legitimacy
> of certain disabilities and health practitioners.
> An example of an "illegal" disability would be
> chronic fatigue syndrome. CHIRI is also said to
> have a computerized list of more than 40,000
> American physicians and other medical
> practitioners who are suspected of using
> "questionable medical practices." ..." p. 45



We must tread very carefully with hear-say.



>
> More on Victor Herbert:
>
> Dr. VICTOR HERBERT--A "LEGEND IN HIS ON MIND"
>
> "The most effective way to introduce Dr. Victor
> Herbert to the reader is to allow Nobel Prize
> winner Linus Pauling to speak. When asked under
> oath in Dr. Warren Levin's trial to explain Dr.
> Herbert, Pauling made the following statements:
>
> (p. 1419-21): I have known for about 21 years
> now. I don't think he is a scientist. It seems to
> me he has little understanding of science and
> little ability in that field.
>
> (p. 1424): Victor Herbert, you know he is not a
> scientist; he doesn't know how to assess evidence.
> I don't think he knows much about biostastics. He
> just says he refuses to look at the evidence. I
> have sent him my analysis of 14 controlled trials;
> he just refuses to look at it. He continues to
> make false statements about vitamin C and cancer,
> and vitamins in general.



Linus Pauling can say what he likes, but it is only his opinion. Remember, Linus got various things wrong too with his orthomolecular medicine theories.
>


In conclusion, while Victor says many interesting things, he can run off the rails at times.

Thankyou for the interesting read John. While there is much hearsay and opinions floating around in this file, it is still a valuable read because there are some very important questions rasied.

Even a few things on my site need to be fixed on B12 regarding issues l brought up. It is important to use common sense in addition to the science, but we must be careful of the science because it can be faulty (bias/paid for research, faulty nutrient testing via blood work).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2014 12:03AM by The Sproutarian Man.

Here is a highly interesting commentary on B12 from Dr Brian Clement. While he is not correct on everything imo, he states some very valuable information regarding modern day humans and reduced ability to make B12 due to intestinal changes.

It gets good from about 2:20 onwards. His testing has shown about 70% of HHI patients to be low in B12.

Vitamin B12 deficiency with Dr Brian Clement
[www.youtube.com]

He still implies that meat eaters are worse off with B12 than vegans. But l find that questionable - what about lower homocysteine levels in meat eaters despite them not getting adequate B9 and questionable amounts of B2 and B6. B12 would have to be a major factor in lowering the homocysteine l would think because the science states it is the most powerful determinant. But then again, are these meat eaters physically active in the studies? See, many cloudy areas which make it really hard to know. Are these meat eaters typical SAD people? Are these people getting synthetic B2 and B6 from eating packaged food? All l know is that many raw vegans get B12 deficient when they give up meat.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2014 12:21AM by The Sproutarian Man.