"Vitamin B12 is of no concern to me, but if i were a vegan id rather take a synthetic vitamin B12 supplement, than potentially ruining health with AFA blue green algaes, which if you search the studies, all conclude that its probably not safe for human consumption at this point."

Are you sure, have you had your B12 levels checked recently? B12 deficiency is a problem that affects a large percent of the population regardless of diet and it wouldn't be surprising if the official RDA's for B12 were too low for the human body. By the way, when we talk about the RDA, we're talking about the bare minimum one needs, not for optimal functioning and without consideration that individual needs may vary. Could very well play a role in why Alzheimer's and dementia are on the rise and not many of these people are vegan. Most vegans do not consume algae's so it's no surprise that most vegans are deficient in B12, but clearly signs point towards this issue not being exclusive to poorly planned vegan diets. I also believe that repairing the gut with raw foods, probiotics/ferments, and taking a high-quality soil based B12 for a while may stimulate production of B12 naturally once again. But again that shouldn't be an issue if one is taking the algae's. Let's remember, B12 is a bacteria found in SOIL, so it makes no logical sense that we would need to consume animal products to get this essential bacteria (named B12). Synthetic B12 is not a good idea.

"Have you ever tried E3Live yet out of interest jtprindl ?"

Yeah, no issues.

"Its makes the minor toxins produced during cooking seem absolutely benign."

If you have a contaminated source, maybe. I've never heard of anyone suffering any of those problems mentioned regarding AFA toxicity, but there's loads of scientific evidence of people greatly suffering from eating cooked animal products. Clearly, E3 Live doesn't seem to be a problem with many people. Maybe it's because E3 Live is incredibly clean, maybe there are toxins and they don't get absorbed... any way you look at it, it seems to be great for overall health for a lot of people. And the toxins produced during cooking are far from minor, unless you consider advanced glycation end products, heterocylic amines, acrylamides, and polycyclic aromatic carbons minor.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 02:49PM by jtprindl.

Yeah i get my vitamin B12 and D levels tested for free, twice a year thankfully one of the few things the NHS is actually good for. The only time my levels of vitamin B12 ever lowered was as a vegan, which is not surprising considering i wasn't consuming a dietary source other than algaes such as chlorella, spirulina and surprisingly AFA blue-green algae at the time, none of which helped, then again there not reliable sources of B12 anyway in my opinion.

Have you read the majority of the vitamin B12 studies ? I have viewed the most of the major ones and the majority all come to the same conclusion time and time again, which is that vegetarians and vegans have the lowest levels of vitamin B12, significantly lower levels than there animal food consuming counterparts.

What science are you referring to regarding the animal products ? Ive yet to come across much if any research which suggests low or sensible intake of these foods to be unhealthy. Im aware of the research on individuals who consume too much red-meat, high saturated fat intake, or fried, smoked or cured foods for example. But most of the research just points to excessive consumption of these foods being unhealthy, which i agree with fully. Fried, smoked and processed foods are terrible for health regardless. Pasteurized dairy also has been linked to many problems, but again its not something i consume as i was past mildly lactose intolerant, if i ever did it would probably be to try raw dairy, but again not something im rushing out to do being that i get the nutrients it offers elsewhere.

The whole klamath lake is contaminated, toxic and polluted. Again the problem isn't just toxins such as microcystins, anatoxins and saxitoxins, but agricultural run off is known to run into the Klamath lake daily, manure and industrial pesticides so i wouldn't fall into the trap of thinking your safe just because these products claim to conform to microcystin safety levels, if they truly even do. More likely playing russian roulette because i suspect none of these manufacturers pay to have each batch independently tested, or if they are, they aren't forthcoming in providing the data analysis. You couldn't test for each pollutant anyway, which is why algaes such as chlorella which are often produced in simulated environments have been shown to be much safer.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2014 12:22AM by Prana.

temp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Most of it we have already gone through, but for
> anyone new to AFA blue-green algae, it may be
> helpful.


Yes, we have gone over this over and over and since then I too concluded that it's best for me to draw the line at products of Klamath Lake even though I have most of an expensive pound of it sitting unused in the back of the pantry. My B12 test was fine without it and there are plenty of much safer ways to get raw B12.

"Have you read the majority of the vitamin B12 studies ? I have viewed the most of the major ones and the majority all come to the same conclusion time and time again, which is that vegetarians and vegans have the lowest levels of vitamin B12, significantly lower levels than there animal food consuming counterparts."

Yes I have and I believe the RDA's are set too low for B12 which is why I believe people think eating animal products provides sufficient B12. They may be getting a little bit more B12 than vegans but it is still not enough. This is resolved by eating sea vegetables and algae's, two foods the majority of vegans do not consume. If we compared vegans who did so, it would not be a surprise if they had higher levels of B12 than animal eaters.

"The only time my levels of vitamin B12 ever lowered was as a vegan, which is not surprising considering i wasn't consuming a dietary source other than algaes such as chlorella, spirulina and surprisingly AFA blue-green algae at the time, none of which helped, then again there not reliable sources of B12 anyway in my opinion."

Was likely an issue with your health as the science clearly indicates that chlorella, AFA, and sea vegetables increase B12 levels. I don't take AFA for B12, I take it for a variety of reasons... rich in chlorophyll, nucleic acids, vitamins, minerals, phytochemicals, amino acids, etc.

Eating a small amount of animal products with a diet rich in plant-based foods likely isn't going to cause health problems (because the plants protect you), but thankfully there's always a healthier alternative in the plant kingdom. Fish, for example, is heavily contaminated with a large range of toxins.... parasites, heavy metals, and all sorts of environmental pollution.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 04:38PM by jtprindl.

More bad news about fish...

[nutritionfacts.org] - Fish shortens DNA telomeres

[nutritionfacts.org] - Salmons and sardines heavily contaminated

"Wasn't an issue with health because as soon as i stopped eating strict vegan, my levels of B12 returned to a healthy range, as did iron which was beginning to lower for the first time in my life, despite eating and juicing lots of iron rich plant foods with lots of vitamin C rich foods to boost absorption. Loads of people especially women have trouble maintaining healthy iron levels as a strict vegan, partially because they lose iron during menstruation. Same goes for zinc, which veganism was part to blame for my copper/zinc imbalances."

Don't know what to tell you... the science speaks for itself regarding algae's and sea vegetables and increased B12 levels. Wouldn't want to state you're lying or heavily exaggerating but it's always a possibility. If you were truly consuming adequate amounts of chlorella, your zinc and iron levels would've also been maintained. Obviously there was an underlying problem. In my opinion, due to your extreme bias towards vegans, it's not too far off to think that you are lying about what you were consuming (or how much, how often) for the sole purpose of trying to make it like some people cannot thrive on a vegan diet and "need" animal foods.

From E3 Live:

"We safety test each and every batch of AFA (Aphanizomenon flos-aquae) before it is bottled and packaged for delivery to your door. From the moment we harvest the AFA, to its final packaging, we work with only the most highly trained and qualified staff. We handle our AFA with such care from start to finish. Factors contributing to this quality include: where and how we harvest, keeping the AFA cold at all times, superior filtration and storage, and ongoing quality-control testing of all of our products. All E3 products are tested thoroughly by independent USDA certified labs for food safety, shelf-life and various other purity tests. We test for: Listeria, Salmonella, Staph aureus, Yeast/Mold, Coliform/E Coli, Aerobic Plate Count, Microcystin, Anatoxin, Saxotoxin & Neurotoxin. We meet or exceed all of the standards for each of these set forth by the FDA and Dept. of Agriculture. We also test the lake water throughout the year for heavy metals and pesticide residue and we use the standards and guidelines that are set for drinking water. These include: Arsenic, Mercury, Lead, Cadmium. This is done by independent laboratories specializing in food and water quality."

Now I'm sure you are going to say they are lying, and that's cool... but you cant provide one example of one person with severe nervous system or liver damage from taking AFA. Thousands of positive testimonials from consumers, health benefits touted by the likes of Brian Clement, Gabriel Cousens, David Wolfe, Fred Bisci... and they test for all sorts of toxicity. I have also been taking two tablespoons and notice no harmful effects and TSM takes it as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 07:00PM by jtprindl.

[english.pravda.ru] - The study revealed that in total life expectancy falls by 13% in case of daily consumption of freshly prepared meat the size of a palm, and a whopping 20% ??of the daily consumption of portions of pre-processed meats - a hot dog or two strips of bacon. For the disease that became the cause of death in both groups, the dependence of risks from the consumption of red meat was as follows: the risk of cardiovascular disease increased by 18% and 21% for fresh and processed meat, respectively, and cancer - by 10% and 16%.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 06:58PM by jtprindl.

"Microcystin toxin has been found in all 16 samples of A. flos-aquae products sold as food supplements in Germany and Switzerland, originating from Lake Klamath: 10 of 16 samples exceeded the safety value of 1 µg microcystin per gram.[11] University professor Daniel Dietrich warned parents not to let children consume A. flos-aquae products, since children are even more vulnerable to toxic effects, due to lower body weight, and the continuous intake might lead to accumulation of toxins. Dietrich also warned against quackery schemes selling these cyanobacteria as medicine against illnesses such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, causing people to omit their regular drugs."


[en.wikipedia.org]

The Klamath Lake industry uses testing methods - ELISA and HPLC, etc., which were not designed for the use they put them to and, besides, they can decide to take test samples from wherever in the lake they want to. Not convincing, IMO, at all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 08:00PM by SueZ.

Plenty of places for everyone to fuel up for your Klamath Lake boat races which take place through your "food" ...


[www.oregon.gov]

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Microcystin toxin has been found in all 16
> samples of A. flos-aquae products sold as food
> supplements in Germany and Switzerland,
> originating from Lake Klamath: 10 of 16 samples
> exceeded the safety value of 1 µg microcystin per
> gram.[11] University professor Daniel Dietrich
> warned parents not to let children consume A.
> flos-aquae products, since children are even more
> vulnerable to toxic effects, due to lower body
> weight, and the continuous intake might lead to
> accumulation of toxins. Dietrich also warned
> against quackery schemes selling these
> cyanobacteria as medicine against illnesses such
> as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
> causing people to omit their regular drugs."
>
>
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> uae


Right, and all that means is that those specific manufacturers didn't have any form of purification and likely did not test for contaminants.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "Microcystin toxin has been found in all 16
> > samples of A. flos-aquae products sold as food
> > supplements in Germany and Switzerland,
> > originating from Lake Klamath: 10 of 16 samples
> > exceeded the safety value of 1 µg microcystin
> per
> > gram.[11] University professor Daniel Dietrich
> > warned parents not to let children consume A.
> > flos-aquae products, since children are even
> more
> > vulnerable to toxic effects, due to lower body
> > weight, and the continuous intake might lead to
> > accumulation of toxins. Dietrich also warned
> > against quackery schemes selling these
> > cyanobacteria as medicine against illnesses
> such
> > as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
> > causing people to omit their regular drugs."
> >
> >
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> > uae
>
>
> Right, and all that means is that those specific
> manufacturers didn't have any form of purification
> and likely did not test for contaminants.

Right. No it doesn't.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SueZ Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > "Microcystin toxin has been found in all 16
> > > samples of A. flos-aquae products sold as
> food
> > > supplements in Germany and Switzerland,
> > > originating from Lake Klamath: 10 of 16
> samples
> > > exceeded the safety value of 1 µg
> microcystin
> > per
> > > gram.[11] University professor Daniel
> Dietrich
> > > warned parents not to let children consume A.
> > > flos-aquae products, since children are even
> > more
> > > vulnerable to toxic effects, due to lower
> body
> > > weight, and the continuous intake might lead
> to
> > > accumulation of toxins. Dietrich also warned
> > > against quackery schemes selling these
> > > cyanobacteria as medicine against illnesses
> > such
> > > as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,
> > > causing people to omit their regular drugs."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> [en.wikipedia.org]
>
> >
> > > uae
> >
> >
> > Right, and all that means is that those
> specific
> > manufacturers didn't have any form of
> purification
> > and likely did not test for contaminants.
>
> Right. No it doesn't.


Good argument. Next.

temp,

The study was done on freshly prepared and processed meats, with processed meats, hence "The study revealed that in total life expectancy falls by 13% in case of daily consumption of freshly prepared meat the size of a palm, and a whopping 20% of the daily consumption of portions of pre-processed meats - a hot dog or two strips of bacon. For the disease that became the cause of death in both groups, the dependence of risks from the consumption of red meat was as follows: the risk of cardiovascular disease increased by 18% and 21% for fresh and processed meat, respectively, and cancer - by 10% and 16%".

The size of a palm... that's a small amount of red meat, so clearly very little still has devastating effects. That study was with 120,000 participants, here's another with 70,000 - [www.dailymail.co.uk] - ‘The reported 12 per cent reduction in mortality was directly associated with being vegetarian, rather than having a healthy balanced diet.'

"It doesn't even look that nutrient rich anyway"

It is and for the reasons I mentioned earlier. On the nutrition label on my bottle, there is (per 15 mL):

10% Vitamin A
630% Vitamin B2
90% Vitamin B6
210% Vitamin B1
80% Vitamin B3



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 08:35PM by jtprindl.

Anyways, I'm done arguing about AFA... I'll side with the likes of Brian Clement, Gabriel Cousens, and David Wolfe, along with the experiences of thousands of consumers including myself and TSM, along with the significant amounts of scientific evidence regarding AFA's health benefits and health-promoting properties. You guys can choose not to consume it, that's fine with me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 08:39PM by jtprindl.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Plenty of places for everyone to fuel up for your
> Klamath Lake boat races which take place through
> your "food" ...
>
>
> [www.oregon.gov]
> es/klamathcounty/klamathlake.aspx

And, yes, of course there is a Yacht Club and the usual tourist boating expeditions you can be one of the thousands to enjoy - as you glide on oil and gas through your "food".

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyways, I'm done arguing about AFA...


As well you should.


Once again, the Klamath Lake industry uses testing methods - ELISA and HPLC, etc., which were not designed for the use they put them to and, besides, they can decide to take test samples from wherever in the lake they want to. Not convincing, IMO, at all.

"Id still love to see the original source study, either way i see you completely ignored that poultry and fish were associated with reductions in mortality."

They are associated with reductions in mortality when compared to red meat, which doesn't really say much.

[www.organicauthority.com]

All fish are contaminated with mercury, a potent neurotoxin: [www.huffingtonpost.com] - This doesn't even include the PCB's, other heavy metals, parasites, radiation, and other forms of environmental pollution.

"You make it sound like there are 100's of studies by saying significant, there is probably less than 15 from what ive seen."

More than 10 studies proving health benefits of one food would still be a lot.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[simplexityhealth.com]
www.ancientsuninc.com/BioModulatorImmunoEnhancer.pdf
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.desertlake.com]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[www.simplexityhealth.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2014 09:20PM by jtprindl.

Some great science links being posted here by folks and good conversation being had. I'll get back to this another day.