I’m going to work backwards in this Thread by starting with 2 replies to one of my old Posts by the same person…

[www.living-foods.com]
Wow, John. Did you take my class? This is part of what I teach at university. Indeed, there are many references in history and mythology that deal with human compromise, traditionally known in the West (as well as Mesopotamia and Greece) as "The Fall", that is, when humans opted out of nature and into synthetic, or man-made, modes of living. Many myths attribute The Fall to the discovery of fire, because, indeed, this is man's first break with the nature environment. Ivrahim Ronin writes some good stuff about this. Another good read is Reay Tannahill's "Food in History".

With fire humans began over using the natural resources (chasing animals with fire, which enabled them to kill large numbers at once, whether or not they needed that many, AND burning up the entire forest in the process, etc.). Fire also enabled the development of pottery, which is eventually going to lead us to cooking our food...Early pottery was extremely poisonous and toxic, though, so this will take a long time to perfect. That is why much later, people freaked out over Chinese porcelain--it enabled people to cook without worry of lead or food poisoning...(En passant, one thing scholars today cannot figure out is how early humans made the mental leap to boil water; they would not have had anything to mimic in nature, and they would not have had the tools and utensils to do this until way down the road. The verdict is still out on that one. Nevertheless, it is fun to speculate about that one!)

Thus, Greek mythology associates the discovery of fire with the advent civilization itself, even though chronologically these two events are not simultaneous; rather, the Greeks had a penchant for going back to the "first cause"--much like what you (John Rose) are attempting to do. They (and others) claimed that without fire none of what actually ensued historically would have/could have occurred.

A funny thing about all of this, is that WE were taught that all of this was a boon for humankind, rather like we USED to be backward and now we are "advanced". But, if you read the literature, the people who were opting out of nature at the time viewed it as a reactionary/defensive move. They were embarassed/ashamed that they no longer cooperated with nature. That is why, when they made synthetic items for their survival (bowls, columns, temples, etc.), they made them LOOK like something out of nature (a shell, tree trunk, cave, respectively); they were hoping that the divine spirits and other humans wouldn't notice. It wasn't like today when we create something unnatural--like cloning and GE foods--and then parade it proudly across the land saying, "Look at how brilliant I am...". That was Sophocles whole point when he wrote, "Wonders are many in the world, and the wonder of all is man..." He was being ironic, but OUR culture uses his statment as proof that we are meant to be superior to the natural world. We ignore that he concluded his ode with "Yet, in his rashness he (man) scorns the ways that are good...let him keep from MY hearth and hand!"

BTW, Pythagorus (of the Theorum) was a great proponent of rawfoodism as a means of associating with the unseen forces; this eventually would make its way into Plato's ideas (Plato was a big fan of Pythagorus), and some say (I"m still out on this one) eventually to Jesus...

Just some thoughts which I am sure will drawn outraged responses from the offended.

Ana

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Here's another post by Ana that she made several days later:

John Hi
Here is an interesting raw food myth about the Origins of Death. It is from the Darasa, Gada (Africa) people. I don't have a date on it though.

"Formerly men had no fire but ate all their food raw. At that time they did not need to die for when they became old God made them young again. One day they decided to beg God for fire. They sent a messenger to God to convey their request. God replied to the messenger that he would give him fire if he was prepared to die. The man took the fire from God, but ever since then all men must die."

Ana
[www.living-foods.com]

Peace and Love..........John

More like the connection between john rose and his usual self serving unfounded speculation on prehistoric cultures.

What about if you are in a cave and it is freezing. Fire would be good no?

It definitely is from the tree of knowledge. I can see that.

<<<What about if you are in a cave and it is freezing. Fire would be good no?>>>

Yes, Fire has many Good Applications, but Fire also has Bad Applications.

Warmth – Good!!!

Cooking – Bad!!!

Here is the very first part of my Post that Ana responded to and you can see why she wrote what she wrote and that it is up to us to use Fire with restraint and with wisdom.

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
The Connection Between FIRE and Our Suffering
John Rose (---.HSTN.splitrock.net)
Date: 01-15-01 14:04

<<<His only seemingly happy moment on the island is when finally he starts a fire after working at it for like 2 days.>>>

I watched Tom Hanks for a bit over the weekend on Charlie Rose and when he described the FIRE as living and breathing, it made me think that FIRE itself is the DEVIL, it made me think of the connection between FIRE and our suffering, and it made me think of the old stories told by the ancients.

The ancient Sumerians, the creators of the first civilization, told a myth about its origins. It was, they said, a devil's bargain -- it offered the noblest ideals of humanity, but it also brought violence, greed and destruction. All this is civilization, the Sumerian God of Wisdom told humanity, and if you wish its benefits, you must take all its qualities and once taken, you cannot give them back. It is for you to use them with restraint and with wisdom.

Does the origin of civilization refer to the discovery of FIRE? Is it fire that we must use with restraint and with wisdom?

...

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

There’s more to my first Post that preceded Ana’s Post, but I’m going to piecemeal it out.

Peace and Love..........John

<<<It definitely is from the tree of knowledge. I can see that.>>>

Yes, exactly!!! That’s how we got Kicked out of the Garden of Eden - we made a Bad Application!!!

You score an A++!!!

Peace and Love..........John

Here’s another section from my first Post that preceded Ana’s Post…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
The Connection Between FIRE and Our Suffering
John Rose (---.HSTN.splitrock.net)
Date: 01-15-01 14:04

…

The first book of the Bible tells us that we had paradise when we ate raw food and that we fell from paradise when we ate the forbidden food [the apple is only a metaphor]. The last book in the Bible also tells us that the healing of the nations will come from The Tree of Life, same as book one.

In "The Essene Gospel of Peace", Jesus called the residue from cooked food in our bowels Beelzebub, which is another name for Satin or Lord of the Dung Hill. Jesus told us to fast to get rid of the demon inside of us and he told us not to kill our food with fire.

The Bible also talks about how the Israelites would take their waste matter [from cooked food] outside of the city and set it on fire. It was said that FIRE never stops burning, and they had a name for it - Gehenna, which is another name for hell.

So long ago, they tried to warn us about the unwise use of FIRE. They used words such as the devil & Beelzebub, and Gehenna & hell to try and paint a picture so that we could understand the evils of polluting our food with FIRE.

…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

More to come…

Peace and Love..........John

Here’s another section from my first Post that preceded Ana’s Post…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
The Connection Between FIRE and Our Suffering
John Rose (---.HSTN.splitrock.net)
Date: 01-15-01 14:04

…

What did Socrates mean when he said, "...that of all the subjects of human knowledge, the last and most difficult to be seen is the Idea of the Good. ...The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. ...Bad men live to eat and drink; whereas good men eat and drink to live."?

What did Victor Hugo mean when he called this uneliminated waste matter in our colon the serpent that lives inside of us?

…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

More to come…

Peace and Love..........John

Here’s another section from my first Post that preceded Ana’s Post…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
The Connection Between FIRE and Our Suffering
John Rose (---.HSTN.splitrock.net)
Date: 01-15-01 14:04

…

The Greek poet Hesiod writes about Zeus talking to Prometheus, son of Iapetos, who had stolen FIRE from Zeus..."Son of Iapetos, there is none craftier than you, and you rejoice at tricking my wits and stealing the fire which will be a CURSE to you and to the generations that follow. The price for the stolen fire will be a "GIFT of EVIL" to charm the hearts of all men as they hug their own doom."

Zeus swore to be revenged, so he made a great "EVIL" for men...Pandora, which means the "GIFT" for all. The gods presented Pandora with a box into which each had put something harmful, and forbade her ever to open it. One day she lifted the lid and out flew plagues innumerable, sorrow and mischief.

Not only did Prometheus steal FIRE for men, but he also arranged that they should get the best part of any animal sacrifice and the gods the worst. As a result, only fat and bones were burned to the gods upon their alters. Men kept the good meat for themselves.

So what is the moral of this story? Is meat and FIRE the cause of plagues, sorrow and mischief? Does this story serve as a warning for all who read it?

…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

More to come…

Peace and Love..........John

Here’s the last section from my first Post that preceded Ana’s Post…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
The Connection Between FIRE and Our Suffering
John Rose (---.HSTN.splitrock.net)
Date: 01-15-01 14:04

…

"Unfortunately, after the discovery of FIRE Homo sapiens' natural progression stopped, and what is worse, it is retrogressing at an incredible pace (just as it had for Homo erectus and Neanderthal before us -- both sub-species cooked their food). Most of the Homo sub-species and races that mastered fire are now extinct. Cooked food has genetically damaged the still surviving races of Homo sapien. Just imagine everyone as they would appear nude. The vast majority of humanity is debased, deformed, and unfit to continue forward." -"Nature's First Law", p.88"

The fact remains that all creatures on this planet have been successfully eating raw for over 500,000,000 years, and that is good enough evidence for me." -Dr. Doug Graham

Dr. Francis Pottenger did a ten year study using 900 cats and proved that the cats fed cooked food developed illnesses and ill behaviors.

Is there any doubt that FIRE destroys everything?
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Peace and Love..........John

The links in your first post lead to nowhere.

Fire (aka "the devil" wouldn't exist without oxygen, yet oxygen can exist without fire. Wouldn't this make oxygen the real "devil." Further, water is often seen as the counter to fire, yet in terms of food, it's commonly used as the "devil's" companion in boiling and steaming. The elements are constantly collaborating. One is no more good or bad than the other.