ryandvan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just because something is old doesn't mean it is
> inaccurate.

Just because something written by 24 people, then edited by 10,000+ people, each with their own agenda/interests, doesn't mean it will be accurate...

> And if in fact our bodies are designed by God, is
> it not reasonable to try and figure out what diet
> He intended? And if there is a God that created
> us, would He not tell us what He designed for us
> to eat?

Erm, even if your invisable friend in the fairy-tale did it, dude, we're omnivors...

> Would you really want God to give eternal life to
> an unrepentant Saddam Hussein?

Of course NOT! We're christians, not the type of people who are know for forgiving... Oh yeah, cast the first stone, judge ye not unless ye be judged, etc., etc.. I gotta admit, christians make the best hypocites by far.

I can't wait for the rapture, at least I'll be able to get some piece and quiet.

Ian.
Bring on my hungry lions!

>Erm, even if your invisable friend in the fairy-tale did it, dude, we're omnivors...

Anatomically speaking, we lean much further in the direction of herbivore then carnivor or omnivore:

FACIAL MUSCLES
Carnivore: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
Herbivore: Well-developed
Omnivore: Reduced
Human: Well-developed

JAW TYPE
Carnivore: Angle not expanded
Herbivore: Expanded angle
Omnivore: Angle not expanded
Human: Expanded angle

JAW JOINT LOCATION
Carnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Herbivore: Above the plane of the molars
Omnivore: On same plane as molar teeth
Human: Above the plane of the molars

JAW MOTION
Carnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
Herbivore: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Omnivore: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
Human: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back

MAJOR JAW MUSCLES
Carnivore: Temporalis
Herbivore: Masseter and pterygoids
Omnivore: Temporalis
Human: Masseter and pterygoids

MOUTH OPENING vs. HEAD SIZE
Carnivore: Large
Herbivore: Small
Omnivore: Large
Human: Small

TEETH (INCISORS)
Carnivore: Short and pointed
Herbivore: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Omnivore: Short and pointed
Human: Broad, flattened and spade shaped

TEETH (CANINES)
Carnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Herbivore: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
Omnivore: Long, sharp and curved
Human: Short and blunted

TEETH (MOLARS)
Carnivore: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
Herbivore: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
Omnivore: Sharp blades and/or flattened
Human: Flattened with nodular cusps

CHEWING
Carnivore: None; swallows food whole
Herbivore: Extensive chewing necessary
Omnivore: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Human: Extensive chewing necessary

SALIVA
Carnivore: No digestive enzymes
Herbivore: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Omnivore: No digestive enzymes
Human: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes

STOMACH TYPE
Carnivore: Simple
Herbivore: Simple or multiple chambers
Omnivore: Simple
Human: Simple

STOMACH ACIDITY
Carnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Omnivore: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
Human: pH 2 to 5 with food in stomach

STOMACH CAPACITY
Carnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Herbivore: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
Omnivore: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
Human: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract

LENGTH OF SMALL INTESTINE
Carnivore: 3 to 6 times body length
Herbivore: 10 to more than 12 times body length
Omnivore: 4 to 6 times body length
Human: 10 to 11 times body length

COLON
Carnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Herbivore: Long, complex; may be sacculated
Omnivore: Simple, short and smooth
Human: Long, sacculated

LIVER
Carnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Herbivore: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Omnivore: Can detoxify vitamin A
Human: Cannot detoxify vitamin A

KIDNEY
Carnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Herbivore: Moderately concentrated urine
Omnivore: Extremely concentrated urine
Human: Moderately concentrated urine

NAILS
Carnivore: Sharp claws
Herbivore: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
Omnivore: Sharp claws
Human: Flattened nails

>Of course NOT! We're christians, not the type of
>people who are know for forgiving... Oh yeah,
>cast the first stone, judge ye not unless ye be judged,
>etc., etc.. I gotta admit, christians make the best hypocites
>by far.

>I can't wait for the rapture, at least I'll be able to get
>some piece and quiet.

Listen to what I say or take your rant somewhere else . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2006 01:03AM by ryandvan.

I'll keep it simple to avoid confusion.

DIET:
Carnivore: Meat
Herbivore: Plants
Omnivore: Plants and Meat
Human: Plants and Meat

Well, that seems to have solved that one. I'm personally very happy to be an omnivore because it means I have the choice to eat only plants.

> Listen to what I say or take your rant somewhere else . . .

Ah, the true face of a christian, control and manipulation. Well, NO, I will not join your hypocritical cult, and NO i will not leave.

The bible is ripe with pointless animal sacrifices and people eating non-vegan meals. It's funny how people are continuing the christian values of control and manipulation by trying to make out that the bible is about animal welfare and vegan diets. I guess they are hoping nobody has read the bible before.

Remember kids, anybody quoting the bible to you has control and manipulation in mind. Watch out.

Peace,
Ian.

re:



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2006 05:41PM by GoneGreen.

Mike re:
"Can we assume that rice and potatoes were not designed to be eaten by us?"

may i turn that around?
were we designed too eat rice and potatoes?


[www.phmiracleliving.com]

one of these pages will say too eat millet not rice and sweet potatoes.

[www.essense-of-life.com]

[mysite.verizon.net]

from what i have read a persons diet should be 80% alkalizing foods.

------------
Initial Signs of Body Acid include
[www.growyouthful.com]
----------------------


Robert O. Young sent me a communication that may help your weight.
--- snip--

What about Underweight?

At the other end of the health spectrum, the yeast and fungus produced within an overly acidic body can feed on your nutrients and reduce the chemical and mechanical absorption of everything you eat by as much as 50%. This causes many people to become excessively thin, which is no healthier than becoming overweight. Without protein, your body cannot rebuild new tissues or produce enzymes, hormones, or hundreds of other chemical components necessary for cell energy and organ activity. Fatigue, illness, and body weight changes are the results. An underweight person may loose a little more weight as their body chemistry stabilizes. As their body normalizes, they will begin to gain towards their ideal weight.

Healthy bodies are not overweight or underweight. A healthy body naturally maintains its own ideal weight. As alkalizing and oxygenation begins to take place, the body naturally begins to seek its own ideal weight.

---- and ---
The pH level (the acid-alkaline measurement) of our internal fluids affects every cell in our bodies. Extended acid imbalances of any kind are not well tolerated by the body. Indeed, the entire metabolic process depends on a balanced internal alkaline environment. A chronically over-acidic pH corrodes body tissue, slowly eating into the 60,000 miles of veins and arteries like acid eating into marble. If left unchecked, it will interrupt all cellular activities and functions, from the beating of your heart to the neural firing of your brain. In summary, over-acidification interferes with life itself leading to all sickness and disease!

How do you know if you're overly acidic?

Fat is an Acid Problem!

Perhaps one of Dr. Young's most well known discoveries is his theory of the cause of overweight. He has shown that fat is actually an over-acidification problem. What does that mean? The body creates fat cells to carry acids away from your vital organs, so these acids literally don't choke your organs to death. Fat is saving your life! Fat is actually a response from the body to an alarming over-acidic condition.

Ian, you are both not listening to what I say and jumping to all kinds of conclusions about things I have never said. A discussion with you is therefore probably pointless, but I will attempt it anyway . . .

sodoffsocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll keep it simple to avoid confusion.
>
> DIET:
> Carnivore: Meat
> Herbivore: Plants
> Omnivore: Plants and Meat
> Human: Plants and Meat

Did you draw this conclusion from the above data or is this a personal opinion?

>
> Well, that seems to have solved that one. I'm
> personally very happy to be an omnivore because it
> means I have the choice to eat only plants.
>

Humans can eat meat to survive but this is not a biologically ideal food. And yes, it is your choice.

> > Listen to what I say or take your rant somewhere
> else . . .
>
> Ah, the true face of a christian, control and
> manipulation. Well, NO, I will not join your
> hypocritical cult, and NO i will not leave.
>

Did I ever say I was a Christian? Please tell me, what hypocritical cult am I a member of? No one is trying to control, only requesting that you not jump off onto irrelevant rants. And yes, you have the right to post irrelevant rants, but don't expect me to accept them.

> The bible is ripe with pointless animal sacrifices
> and people eating non-vegan meals.

How many times have you read the Bible if I might ask? Did you read it front to back? Did you ask anyone about what you read or simply form your own conclusions? Context is everything.

Animal sacrifices were a part of Plan B to redeem man from a fallen state. They typified the sacrifice of Christ and were to exemplify the results of sin. They ended at the cross.

The "non-vegan" meals were as well a part of a Plan B or C. Animal eating was permitted by God after the flood because other foods were scarce. When plant foods were available, these were eaten by those who knew and understood the primary will of God:

Daniel 1

8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.
11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,
12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king’s meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.
15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king’s meat.
16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.


> It's funny how
> people are continuing the christian values of
> control and manipulation by trying to make out
> that the bible is about animal welfare and vegan
> diets. I guess they are hoping nobody has read
> the bible before.

The Bible teaches principles which are ever evolving in application. You can see this within the Bible itself. But if you are unable to see this and need a precedent, when God made Adam, the job he gave him was to take care of the garden and animals. In fact, his first job was to name the animals. Do you seriously think that Adam going around and needlessly killing these animals was a part of the plan?

>
> Remember kids, anybody quoting the bible to you
> has control and manipulation in mind. Watch out.
>
> Peace,
> Ian.

This is in fact what we call prejudice. Because I quote the Bible you can read my mind?

I’m sorry you have had a bad past experience with “Christians” or Bible thumpers. Maybe one day you will see beyond that.

-Ryan

ryandvan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> > I'll keep it simple to avoid confusion.
> >
> > DIET:
> > Carnivore: Meat
> > Herbivore: Plants
> > Omnivore: Plants and Meat
> > Human: Plants and Meat
>
> Did you draw this conclusion from the above data
> or is this a personal opinion?

Actually, an encyclopedia. I tried to use your data, but omnivores like pigs and chickens didn't really fit into it well.

> Daniel 1

On the next revision, let's change 'pulse' to 'raw vegan diet'.

> Do you seriously think that Adam going
> around and needlessly killing these animals was a
> part of the plan?

LOL! That gives me some funny (dark humour) images! I can only really consider the bible as a work of fiction (although I believe some of it is based around historic events), but I must say, I thought God was a bit of ass to Adam'n'Eve "don't eat my apple - get out of the garden..." - either God was naive, or he planned to kick them out of garden all along - either way, it wasn't nice, no wonder Adam starts killing everything. But, that's just what I got from the story - I'm sure most will get something different.

> I’m sorry you have had a bad past experience with
> “Christians” or Bible thumpers. Maybe one day you
> will see beyond that.

I still get 'good' experiences with religous people once in a while, it used to more often, I look forward to them. But the ratio of meaningful conversations to me-getting-lectured conversations leaves me rather guarded.

Cheers,
Ian.

Actually, modern science says:

"The widespread prevalence of diet-related health problems, particularly in highly industrialized nations, suggests that many humans are not eating in a manner compatible with their biology." Nod nod nod!

"Anthropoids, including all great apes, take most of their diet from plants, and there is general consensus that humans come from a strongly herbivorous ancestry."

See:

Milton K, "Nutritional characteristics of wild primate foods: Do the diets of our closest living relatives have lessons for us?", NUTRITION 15 (6): 488-498 JUN 1999

Abstract: The widespread prevalence of diet-related health problems, particularly in highly industrialized nations, suggests that many humans are not eating in a manner compatible with their biology. Anthropoids, including all great apes, take most of their diet from plants, and there is general consensus that humans come from a strongly herbivorous ancestry. Though gut proportions differ, overall gut anatomy and the pattern of digestive kinetics of extant apes and humans are very similar. Analysis of tropical forest leaves and fruits routinely consumed by wild primates shows that many of these foods are good sources of hexoses, cellulose, hemicellulose, pectic substances, vitamin C, minerals, essential fatty acids, and protein. In general, relative to body weight, the average wild monkey or ape appears to take in far higher levels of many essential nutrients each day than the average American and such nutrients (as well as other substances) are being consumed together in their natural chemical matrix, The recommendation that Americans Consume more fresh fruits and vegetables in greater variety appears well supported by data on the diets of free-ranging monkeys and apes. Such data also suggest that greater attention to features of the diet and digestive physiology of non-human primates could direct attention to important areas for future research on features of human diet and health. (C) Elsevier Science Inc. 1999.


Cheers,
Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Also, my recent searches on databases of scientific published papers resulted in finding this paper, authored by a Nobel prize winning professor ([nobelprize.org]). I think that his brilliant mind helped him realize the shortcomings of the cooked food meat and potato diet. I also think that science may just be beginning to realize what the optimum human diet really is.


YOU ARE A PRIMATE: LIVE AS ONE!

Hans Dehmelt

Nobel Prize 1989

Professor
Department of Physics, University of Washington

HEALTHIEST DIET HYPOTHESIS:
How to cure most diseases

From the earliest times to about 5 million years ago our ancient primate ancestors had been living exclusively in the deep tropical forests of Southern Africa. Here, for about twenty million years, evolution had superbly developed their fruit spying and picking skills to a degree that their numbers increased to taxing the limited food resources [1]. This in turn encouraged some of their more adventurous members to venture out into the surrounding savannas and scavenge the carcasses of large grazing animals brought down by predators and to ignore the shortcomings of this new diet that they were less well adapted to. This group probably originated the line leading to Homo sapiens, us. As we nevertheless more and more multiplied this pattern repeated, and again and again we were forced to subsist on even less and less desirable diets until today a large fraction of the population has adopted variations of the Big Mac diet. Those remaining in the forests on the frugivorous diet changed very little and became Homo troglodytes, the chimpanzees, and our closest relatives whose DNA is 99.4% identical with ours. Their well-known current, obviously raw diet is composed [2,3] approximately of 75% ripe wild fruit, 20% of leaves and pith and 5% foods of animal origin. By dry weight wild fruit contains fats, proteins, carbohydrates, digested and undigested fiber in the approximate proportions 5 : 7 : 14 : 17 : 17. The two essential fatty acids contribute nearly half of the fat component, about 23% linoleic and 16% alpha-linolenic. It is hypothesized that it is still the healthiest diet also for Man because for about twenty million years it has been eaten by the common ancestors of Man and Chimp. They did not fall for the extremely unhealthy practice of cooking their food. All later diets up to the current big Mac diet of the broad American masses increasingly rely on foodstuffs such as meat, grains, beans & potatoes that have to be made edible by cooking and were only adopted under exponentially increasing population pressures. Consequently, all are less healthy and moreover they are the less healthy the later they were adopted. Approximating the Chimp diet by suitably supplemented supermarket items may give us the best of both worlds. See the sample meal in the Appendix. The following work [4,5] supports the hypothesis.

1. Cohen M. N. The food crisis in prehistory: overpopulation and agriculture. Yale University Press, 1977
2. Milton, K. Nutritional characteristics of wild Primate Foods: Do the natural diets of our closest living relatives have lessons for us? Nutrition 15 (1999) 488-498.
3. Conklin-Brittain, N. L., R. W. Wrangham, and K. D. Hunt, 1998. Dietary response of chimpanzees and cercopithecines to seasonal variation in fruit abundance: II. Nutrients. Int. J. Primatol. 19(1998) 71-987.
4. Ehret A. Kranke Menschen (Rational Fasting). Benedict Lust Publications; 1912
5. [www.waisays.com]

Hans Dehmelt
Department of Physics, University of Washington, Seattle, USA


Appeared in the Journal "Medical Hypotheses" Volume 64, Issue 4 , 2005, Page 882


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

> Actually, an encyclopedia. I tried to use your
> data, but omnivores like pigs and chickens didn't
> really fit into it well.

You have herbivore at one end of the spectrum, carnivore
at the other and omnivore in the middle. Granted the
omnivore category is a bit ambiguous, but humans by and
large would lean toward the herbivore side, pigs and chickens
more the carnivore side.

>
> > Daniel 1
>
> On the next revision, let's change 'pulse' to 'raw
> vegan diet'.

Pulse (in Hebrew):

erz zeroa‘ zay-ro’- ah or Nerz zera‘on zay-raw-ohn’ or (plural) Myerz
- Meaning "that which is sown and comes from seed"

The argument was about vegan, not raw vegan.


>
> > Do you seriously think that Adam going
> > around and needlessly killing these animals was
> a
> > part of the plan?
>
> LOL! That gives me some funny (dark humour)
> images! I can only really consider the bible as a
> work of fiction (although I believe some of it is
> based around historic events),

Everyone has their criteria of truth. If you are waiting
for a time machine before you make your decision then that
is your choice. The fact is, nothing that I know of has
been proven false, and archeology has shown much of it
to corroborate with historical evidence.


but I must say, I
> thought God was a bit of ass to Adam'n'Eve "don't
> eat my apple - get out of the garden..." - either
> God was naive, or he planned to kick them out of
> garden all along - either way, it wasn't nice, no
> wonder Adam starts killing everything. But,
> that's just what I got from the story - I'm sure
> most will get something different.

Again, context is everything. There was and is a war
going on over allegiance to God. Mankind had to have
a choice as to which side he was on. Satan was given
his small opportunity to win mankind to his side and
that is the side we chose. Did God not give mankind
this choice, Lucifer could have claimed that God was
arbitrarily holding mankind back from a better way of
life. It was a matter of free choice.

God knew that they would do it, but He paid the ultimate
cost of the decision. The wages of sin is death, and
He paid that price for us.

> I still get 'good' experiences with religous
> people once in a while, it used to more often, I
> look forward to them. But the ratio of meaningful
> conversations to me-getting-lectured conversations
> leaves me rather guarded.

That's nice to hear. I'm guessing a lot of the Christians
you meet are online? Therein is part of the problem . . .
hardly representatives of the whole . . .

-Ryan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2006 02:09AM by ryandvan.

> That's nice to hear. I'm guessing a lot of the
> Christians
> you meet are online? Therein is part of the
> problem . . .
> hardly representatives of the whole . . .

No, I feel I can only get a good impression of person from meeting them in person. Something I found interesting was meeting very nice religous people through being raw vegan, all these people really had in comon was that they did not judge my life style, they did not preach/lecture to me, but they were very willing to discuss their beliefs when asked. The maner they presented their beliefs was "this is my perspective", rather than "this is what you should beleave".

Cheers,
Ian.

sodoffsocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > That's nice to hear. I'm guessing a lot of the
> > Christians
> > you meet are online? Therein is part of the
> > problem . . .
> > hardly representatives of the whole . . .
>
> No, I feel I can only get a good impression of
> person from meeting them in person. Something I
> found interesting was meeting very nice religous
> people through being raw vegan, all these people
> really had in comon was that they did not judge my
> life style, they did not preach/lecture to me, but
> they were very willing to discuss their beliefs
> when asked. The maner they presented their
> beliefs was "this is my perspective", rather than
> "this is what you should beleave".
>
> Cheers,
> Ian.

Nice. Amazing how diet can affect a person isn't it? They've found that prisoners put on plant diets become less hostile/aggressive, school kids misbehave less etc . . . I'm sure you know all that . . . I guess religious folks are no exception . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2006 01:47AM by ryandvan.

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Approximating the Chimp
> diet by suitably supplemented supermarket items
> may give us the best of both worlds.

So they are talking about supplementing the processed foods to be like the apes diet! LOL ROL LOL Meanwhile, the rawfooders have similar goals but acomplish them by simply shopping in the produce section. LOL Thanks Gosia!

I agree, that's hilarious!

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

I have crazy and out-there theroies about the fall of man!

One of them is: There was a serpent amongst the tree, well maybe it was a dragon that fired it's food to eat from the tree before consuming it and adam and eve were told by God not to do so to their food. But eve saw this creature eating the cooked fruit and that it was not dying but flourishing, and this looked pleasing because it was so different to the way her and the other creatures ate .

I think it's good to have an open mind. I like to read the bible and other related books and think of many different possibilities to the way it really was. There are lots of outlooks to the exact way the stories played out in the bible. I was taught to believe in a closed minded way that the bible is the only truth and That "this means this or that means that". Now I just think for myself.
You can't put god in a box!

No other creature on this plannet cooks it's food, and our race tends to be very destructive to our enviorment and to ourselves, but if and when we become closer to nature, we see the right way to live. If the outcome is good then maybe you're on the right path.

Look at daniel in the lions den, he was a vegitarian and the lions did not hurt him. I know of a raw foodist that plays with wild bears!

Also when you eat all raw your thinking becomes more clear and your food digests like it was intended to and we become closer to what we are intended to be!
I believe Jesus came to be the perfect example on how to live. And maybe the bible has been changed and pieced out due to over translating or editing or other reasons? I don't know for sure, but truth will tell all. Seek and you will find.

Love and Gratitude,
-J

You could do a lot worse than rice and potatoes, that's for sure. Pre-Mcdonaldized Koreans did pretty well with high starch diets--very low cancer rates, fairly high lifespans, etc. But they did eat a lot of kim chee and other veggies and their low fat diets provided them with low exposure to glycotoxins (cooked fats are the worst) as well.

If you are a raw fooidst, you MUST read the The ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE:

[www.essene.com]

"But I do say to you: Kill neither men, nor beasts, nor yet the food which goes into your mouth. For if you eat living food, the same will quicken you, but if you kill your food, the dead food will kill you also. For life comes only from life, and from death comes always death. For everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And everything which kills your bodies kills your souls also. And your bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits, likewise, become what your thoughts are.

Therefore, eat not anything which fire, or frost, or water has destroyed. For burned, frozen and rotted foods will burn, freeze and rot your body also. Be not like the foolish husbandman who sowed in his ground cooked, and frozen, and rotten seeds. And the autumn came, and his fields bore nothing. And great was his distress. But be like that husbandman who sowed in his field living seed, and whose field bore living ears of wheat, paying a hundredfold for the seeds which he planted. For I tell you truly, live only by the fire of life, and prepare not your foods with the fire of death, which kills your foods, your bodies and your souls also."