>Even in a modern world we have some people in their sixties still looking like twenty-five because of raw foods and excerise. You've seen pictures of them.

Yes, and they are all African-American.

Care to provide some references to this? I can't believe they are *ALL* African-American. If it is true, then why only African-American's and not Africans?

rrraw Wrote:
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> That depends on your interpretation of health,
> right?

Not really. "Context", (as in age environment, etc.) maybe, but "depends on your interpretation of health", I don't see it. Sounds like another way of making stuff up.

> I don't know, I'm just playing with imagination.

Ah, in that case, no facts neccessary. ;-)

Ian.

I haven't seen any pics of raw foodist Africans, but it would certainly hold true, even more so, for the sub-Saharan ones. It's because their skins are thick and very well protected from UV damage, and the skin is a very important factor in how "old" people look. They are walking around with a built-in SPF of 30 or so.

Also they tend not to have had plastic surgery because they are more likely to develop keloids from the sewing.

Wheras most of the white raw foodists over 50 have ghastly skin without corrective surgery, and some of the younger ones, too.

Asians are sort of in the middle. They tend not to wrinkle and sag so much except for the deep eye crinkles, but they get these ugly hyperpigmented macules.

Do raw foodists get plastic surgery??

Also, in answer to the original post, I too have been eating oranges like crazy - I can't seem to get enough of them lately. Mmm...

>Do raw foodists get plastic surgery?

I think the model-actress types almost certainly do--it's almost a requirement for the job. Dunno about the rest of us.

So, no references then?

Oh, yes, if you want them. Please let me know if you would like to discuss any of these after you have read them.

Leyden J, What is photoaged skin? European Journal of Dermatology. 2001 March-Apr 11(2): 165-7
Taylor CR, Stern RS, Lyden JL, et al. Photoaging/photodamage and photoprotection. J Am Acad Dermatol 1990;22(1):1-15
Kligman LH. Photoaging Naimfestations, prevention, and treatment. Clin Geriatr Med 1989;5(1):235-51.
Sams WM Jr. Sun-induced aging: clinical and laboratory observations in humans. Clin Geriatr Med 1989;5(1):223-33.
Lober CW; Fenske NA. Photoaging and the skin: differentiation and clinical response. Geriatrics 1990;45(4):36-40, 42
Prawer, S. E. 1991. Sun-related skin diseases. Postgraduate Medicine 89 (8): 51-66.
Kligman LH. Photoaging Naimfestations, prevention, and treatment. Clin Geriatr Med 1989;5(1):235-51.
Lober et al, Photoaging and the skin: differentiation and clinical response. Geriatrics 1990;45(4):36-40, 42
Prawer, S. E. 1991. Sun-related skin diseases. Postgraduate Medicine 89 (8): 51-66.
Odom RB. Focus on photodamage: a medical problem. Parsippany, NJ: Skin Phototrauma Foundation, 1990:1-29
Lober et al, Photoaging and the skin: differentiation and clinical response. Geriatrics 1990;45(4):36-40, 42
Kligman A, Topical treatments for photoaged skin: Separating the reality from the hype, Postgraduate Medicine, 1997 Aug; 102(2)
Kligman, LH, Akin FJ, Kligman AM, Sunscreens promote repair of ultraviolet radiation-induced dermal damage. J Invest Dermatol 1983:81 98-102
Kligman LH, Photoaging. Manifestations, prevention, and treatment,Dermatol Clin 1986 Jul;4(3):517-28
Kligman LH, Prevention and repair of photoaging: sunscreens and retinoids, Cutis 1989 May;43(5):458-65
Kligman LH, Preventing, delaying, and repairing photoaged skin, Cutis 1988 Jun;41(6):419-20
Kligman LH, Connective tissue photodamage in the hairless mouse is partially reversible, J Invest Dermatol 1987 Mar;88(3 Suppl):12s-17s
Kligman LH, Akin FJ, Kligman AM, Prevention of ultraviolet damage to the dermis of hairless mice by sunscreens, J Invest Dermatol 1982 Feb;78(2):181-9
Kligman LH, The ultraviolet-irradiated hairless mouse: a model for photoaging, J Am Acad Dermatol 1989 Sep;21(3 Pt 2):623-31
Boyd AS, Naylor M, Cameron GS et al. The effects of chronic sunscreen use on the histologic changes of dermatoheliosis. Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology 1995; 33: 941-6.
Seite S, Colige A, Piquemal-Vivenot P, Monstastier C, Fourtanier A, Lapiere C, and Nsugens B, A full-UV spectrum absorbing daily use cream protects human skin against biological changes occuring in photoaging, Photodermatol Photoimmunol Photomed 2000: 16 147-155
Moyal D, Prevention of ultraviolet-induced skin pigmentation,Photodermatol Photoimmunol Photomed. 2004 Oct;20(5):243-7.
Ortonne J, and Schwartz T, Clinics and pathogenesis of UV-induced pigmentary disorders, J Dtsch Dermatol Ges, 2003 Apr;1(4):274-84.
Moyal DD, Fourtanier AM., Effects of UVA radiation on an established immune response in humans and sunscreen efficacy., Exp Dermatol 2002 Nov;11 Suppl 1:28-32
Titus-Ernstoff L, Perry AE, Spencer SK, Gibson JJ, Cole BF, Ernstoff MS, Pigmentary characteristics and moles in relation to melanoma risk, Int J Cancer. 2005 Mar 10, PMID: 15761869
Dornelles, Sérgio, Goldim, José, Cestari, and Tania, Determination of the Minimal Erythema Dose and Colorimetric Measurements as Indicators of Skin Sensitivity to UV-B Radiation, Photochemistry and Photobiology 2005 79(6):540-544
Taketsugu Tadokoro, Nobuhiko Kobayashi, Barbara Z. Zmudzka, Shosuke Ito, Kazumasa Wakamatsu, Yuji Yamaguchi, Katalin S. Korossy, Sharon A. Miller, Janusz Z. Beer, Vincent J. Hearing, UV-induced DNA damage and melanin content in human skin differing in racial/ethnic origin, The FASEB Journal. 2003;17:1177-1179.
IFSCC 2004, UVA-I filters with an absorption max of >= 360 nm provide optimal protection against UVA-I-induced expression of matrix metalloproteinase-1 in vitro, Viehlhaber et. al, Symrise.(poster #194)
Seite S, Colige A, Piquemal-Vivenot P, Monstastier C, Fourtanier A, Lapiere C, and Nsugens B, A full-UV spectrum absorbing daily use cream protects human skin against biological changes occuring in photoaging, Photodermatol Photoimmunol Photomed 2000: 16 147-155
El-Domyati M, Attia S, Saleh F, Brown D, Birk DE, Gasparro F, Ahmad H, Uitto J., Intrinsic aging vs. photoaging: a comparative histopathological, immunohistochemical, and ultrastructural study of skin. Exp Dermatol. 2002 Oct;11(5):398-405.PMID: 12366692
Fourtanier A, Labat-Robert J, Kern P, Berrebi C, Gracia AM, Boyer B., In vivo evaluation of photoprotection against chronic ultraviolet-A irradiation by a new sunscreen Mexoryl SX., Photochem Photobiol. 1992 Apr;55(4):549-60,
Kerry M. Hanson* and John D. Simon, Epidermal trans-urocanic acid and the UV-A-induced photoaging of the skin, Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1998 September 1; 95(18): 10576–10578
Bissett D L, Hannon D P, Orr T V. Photochem Photobiol. 1987;46:367–378.
Bernstein E., Uitto, J., In vivo and in vitro model of cutaneous photaging, 1997 December, USPTO #6018098

It's going to be hard finding all of those papers, which is your favourite?

Actually, I'm starting to think that the "they are all African-American." is really just your personal experience, and not a claim you are trying making. Correct? Or am I still way off again?

Ian.

I don't have a favorite but the most pertinent ones to what I am guessing is your question are these:

Dornelles, Sérgio, Goldim, José, Cestari, and Tania, Determination of the Minimal Erythema Dose and Colorimetric Measurements as Indicators of Skin Sensitivity to UV-B Radiation, Photochemistry and Photobiology 2005 79(6):540-544

Taketsugu Tadokoro, Nobuhiko Kobayashi, Barbara Z. Zmudzka, Shosuke Ito, Kazumasa Wakamatsu, Yuji Yamaguchi, Katalin S. Korossy, Sharon A. Miller, Janusz Z. Beer,

Vincent J. Hearing, UV-induced DNA damage and melanin content in human skin differing in racial/ethnic origin, The FASEB Journal. 2003;17:1177-1179.

IFSCC 2004, UVA-I filters with an absorption max of >= 360 nm provide optimal protection against UVA-I-induced expression of matrix metalloproteinase-1 in vitro, Viehlhaber et. al, Symrise.(poster #194)

It has nothing to do with personal experience and more to do with a very extensive reading of the state of what is known regarding the skin's natural defenses against the ravages of ultraviolet protection. Darker thicker skins have a lot more of it.

But you might be more inclined to see where I am coming from if you did try to read at least some of these papers.

A good raw diet rich in protective phytochemicals does provide some protection. But this added protection compared to SAD cannot compensate for deliberate exposure in the typical white person (phototype I-III), they will still damage their skins and look older.

But an African American (or person with appreciable sub-Saharan ethnicity, if you prefer) will typically have a built-in sun protection factor of 15-30. If the raw food diet provides a factor of 4 or so by itself, these combined will provide sufficient protection (estimated factor 60-120) from the damages due to deliberate exposure and photoaging will be minimal. Not so for the typical white person. Of course a lot depends on latitude, altitude, individual phototype, and total time of exposure (damage is cumulative).

Please don't misunderstand me, this damage is not inevitable in a white person. But to avoid it, one must provide significant protection, and it's very rare to encounter such a person over the age of 50. In addition, many if not most raw foodists are deliberate sun-seekers, which exacerbates the problem. Exposure is bad enough for the skin when it's incidental. But deliberate exposure makes it worse.

I did meet one such phototype II in my life, he was an academic who never saw the sun and lived in a low insolation area (Hamburg). He was not a raw foodist, but he did eat lots of f+v. No wrinkles, no lines, no sags, nothing like that, but perfect, evenly pigmented skin with no lesions, like a baby's bottom.

I am not saying the sun is your enemy. It makes you happy, it provides for vitamin D synthesis in the non-winter months. But it will damage your skin. There is no question about that.

Thanks Arugula, I think I've got it now. (The "all african-american" thing was a bit confusing - but changing it to "most people of strong african decent" (or probably "people with skin type/phototype X" clears it up for me.)

I'll lookout for those papers.

Thanks,
Ian.

For the record my post was deleted because I disagreed with Bryan. /shrug

sodoffsocks Wrote:
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> Cherrymelon, are you telling us the people are not
> supposed to turn grey, and if they do they are
> doing so because they are unhealthy, regardless of
> age?
>
> This seems very unnatural to me.
>
> Ian.


Is death "natural"? I think think it's more a question of pro life or pro death. Greying is caused by the death of melanocyte stem cells.

(an interesting side note: A 1996 British Medical Journal study conducted by J.G. Mosley, MD found that tobacco smoking may cause premature greying. Smokers were found to be four times more likely to begin greying prematurely, compared to nonsmokers in the study.)

For whatever reason, the goji berry seems to contain something that reverses this (my grandma, who's in her 80's had her black hair color start returning (albeit in patches) after starting the juice.) I'm guessing it's the LBP's that facilitate cellular communication.

-Ryan

Heh, see many people (try) living a life where they think death is un-natural and to be avoided. Personally I believe there isn't anything more natural than death - try to live life without fearing it.

Love,
Ian.

If you look at some other stats you will see a lack of Sun can be a big problem more then too much .

When it is cool out my body craves Sunshine feels so good.

Cherimoya

Love Peace and Happiness,

So get some sun on your legs. But you don't have to destroy your face, your hands, your neck. Let the wrinkles and sags and pigmentation problems occur elsewhere