jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "but a proper diet includes the proper amount of
> "sugar" intake relative to exercise level"
>
> The fruit eaters tell me that sugar from fruit
> isn't damaging, so what is it? Is it only damaging
> when you don't exercise enough to burn all of it
> off? Doesn't seem healthy to me, having to
> exercise in order to not feel negative effects
> from the food you consume.
>

i have no idea what you are trying to say.
there is no negative effect regardless of activity level with a proper fruit/veg diet.


>
> Not really considering the science and also the
> fact that this does not happen with low-fructose
> fruits (berries, cherries, grapefruit, oranges).

should still happen with low fructose fruit according to your theory.
truly eating when hungry solves a lot. most overeat.


>
> "and all the other causative factors still apply
> ."
>
> Not with me they don't... (I like your quick
> google search, though).

i don't know what google search you are referring to.
unless sergey brin resides in my skull.
and if he does, i need to raise the rent.


I don't eat a lot of
> calories so overeating wouldn't be the cause.

i would question that belief.
you are aware of the energy drain of digestion no doubt.


The
> dates were organic so not pesticides. I don't have
> leaky gut or any intestinal or blood issues.
> Again, the only difference in these two days and
> in the past when the freckles stopped appearing is
> the addition/subtraction of fructose-rich fruit.
>

you continue to define it as "fructose rich"
your definition is invalid.
and your causation to symptoms is nonexistent.

need to get more scientific.


> "they are not fully raw and fresh"
>
> How would you know? How are they not raw? Anyways,
> dates aren't the only fructose-rich food I've had
> this experience with, same has happened with
> bananas.


i have had them and know the difference.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2014 06:05AM by fresh.

jtprindl, I would say that your experiment doesn't prove anything, except that eating dates (or bananas) for you doesn't work. Your body is adapted to getting it calories from fat, and your blood is probably loaded with lipids. So eating a 1000 calorie dried fruit meal of dates is going to overload your blood with sugar, and your body probably has a high insulin resistance given your high fat diet. That you had a diabetic like reaction is not surprising.

If you want to eat fruit, lower your fat intake for a period of time before eating a concentrated food like dates. Instead, eat some ripe oranges or other juicy ripe fruits while you transition.

"i have no idea what you are trying to say.
there is no negative effect regardless of activity level with a proper fruit/veg diet."

Certainly not my experience, the experience of many others, and what lots of science suggests. It's quite simple, if fructose from fruit was harmless, why does it cause freckles on my skin when it's literally the only change in my eating habits?

"should still happen with low fructose fruit according to your theory.
truly eating when hungry solves a lot. most overeat."

No it shouldn't because I am not saying that small amounts of fructose are damaging. But I've been told numerous times by high-fruit eaters that the science didn't prove anything because it wasn't done solely on fruit, but why am I getting freckles (skin damage) from eating dates? It's the whole food, it contains fiber, it's not isolated in any way yet it still harms my skin. This directly aligns with the science on fructose and skin damage. Again, this is just my experience and I'm telling you the addition/subtraction of fructose-rich fruit is the only difference in the emergence or alleviation of freckles.

"i would question that belief."

Lol ok, most days I only eat around 1800-2000 calories and regularly intermittent fast.

"you continue to define it as "fructose rich""

Not sure what's hard to grasp here. The fructose content of fruits such as dates, bananas, figs, watermelon, etc. are much higher than the fruits I listed.

"i have had them and know the difference."

Oh okay.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl, I would say that your experiment doesn't
> prove anything, except that eating dates (or
> bananas) for you doesn't work. Your body is
> adapted to getting it calories from fat, and your
> blood is probably loaded with lipids. So eating a
> 1000 calorie dried fruit meal of dates is going to
> overload your blood with sugar, and your body
> probably has a high insulin resistance given your
> high fat diet. That you had a diabetic like
> reaction is not surprising.
>
> If you want to eat fruit, lower your fat intake
> for a period of time before eating a concentrated
> food like dates. Instead, eat some ripe oranges or
> other juicy ripe fruits while you transition.


Okay, once again, the same experience happened months ago when I was on a high-fruit, low-fat diet. I didn't have as much sedation because as you said, my body is now adapted to using fat and high amounts of sugar will cause the blood sugar to be much more out of whack, but the freckles experience remains the same.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2014 06:27AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "i have no idea what you are trying to say.
> there is no negative effect regardless of
> activity level with a proper fruit/veg diet."
>
> Certainly not my experience, the experience of
> many others, and what lots of science suggests.

i was talking about fatigue above.


> It's quite simple, if fructose from fruit was
> harmless, why does it cause freckles on my skin
> when it's literally the only change in my eating
> habits?
>

i guess if you want to keep making that unsubstantiated claim,
I cannot stop you.



> "should still happen with low fructose fruit
> according to your theory.
> truly eating when hungry solves a lot. most
> overeat."
>
> No it shouldn't because I am not saying that small
> amounts of fructose are damaging. But I've been
> told numerous times by high-fruit eaters that the
> science didn't prove anything because it wasn't
> done solely on fruit, but why am I getting
> freckles (skin damage) from eating dates?

already given you a whole bunch of reasons.

i am not claiming to know.

you are claiming to know, and i know that's what most humans like to do,
to be certain, to appear as if they know, etc.

It's the
> whole food, it contains fiber, it's not isolated
> in any way yet it still harms my skin. This
> directly aligns with the science on fructose and
> skin damage. Again, this is just my experience and
> I'm telling you the addition/subtraction of
> fructose-rich fruit is the only difference in the
> emergence or alleviation of freckles.
>
> "i would question that belief."
>
> Lol ok, most days I only eat around 1800-2000
> calories and regularly intermittent fast.
>

we are not talking about most days.
you just said you ate 1000-2000 in dates plus other foods.
this was your experiment.


> "you continue to define it as "fructose rich""
>
> Not sure what's hard to grasp here. The fructose
> content of fruits such as dates, bananas, figs,
> watermelon, etc. are much higher than the fruits I
> listed.

it's hard to grasp why people insist on defining foods by their constituents.

>
> "i have had them and know the difference."
>
> Oh okay.

and that concludes our strangely civil discourse. lol.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think the problem is with you. Fructose is
> > converted to glucose. You eat a high fat diet.
> > High fat diets create insulin resistance and
> > diabetes.
>
> Hey, Panchito, I never had blood sugar and lipid
> panel problems until I was on hclf diet for 11
> months.
>
> As I keep trying to tell you, my blood sugar and
> lipid panel tests are now back to normal after
> being on a very high fat (around 64%!), and very
> low carb (around 100 grams a day!) diet for a year
> and a half. YOU ARE BELIEVING IN BAD SECOND HAND
> INFORMATION.

My blood sugar, tryglcerides, and other lipid panel lab work was never screwed up before I was on lfhc raw for 11 months. After 11 months of that diet some of my lab work was as screwed up as kristinafullyraw's recent video showed of her tests.

It took a year and a half of being on a raw vegan diet that was very low in fruit and 100 carbs a day for my blood sugar to even out an get back to a normal fbs. Once I was able to see that improvement I got tested again and my blood tests showed to be back within normal parameters. Bye Bye to high tryglycerides and other blood work problems for me! High fat low carb raw was was proven to be the remedy. The numbers don't lie.

Kristinafullyraw is a very naïve untrained young lady just believing what her Dr tells her to believe but her MD. really should know better, IMO. Just because an MD is raw vegan doesn't mean they are a good doctor or that they didn't fall into the lower percentiles of their class' grade point average, for instance.

Kristina's blood work was by no means optimal and should at least be better than the blood work of an old raw vegan lady's who eats 64% fat and isn't an athlete. It's not!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2014 12:52PM by SueZ.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe it's just there's nothing distinctive to set
> you apart by. Like clones.



You need an oil change. Your perception, which was never good to begin with, is at an all time low. Change your oil.

Anon 102 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>>> the usual party line pabulum and selectively evasive response<<<


Good Lord, even your dunce hat is askew.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anon 102 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >>> the usual party line pabulum and selectively
> evasive response<<<
>
>
> Good Lord, even your dunce hat is askew.




Actually it is your eyes that are askew. lol

Anon 102 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Anon 102 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >>> the usual party line pabulum and
> selectively
> > evasive response<<<
> >
> >
> > Good Lord, even your dunce hat is askew.
>
>
>
>
> Actually it is your eyes that are askew. lol

Your eyes can't seem to see beyond your stale party line beliefs. Here, let me bring it up closer for you...

"My blood sugar, tryglcerides, and other lipid panel lab work was never screwed up before I was on lfhc raw for 11 months. After 11 months of that diet some of my lab work was as screwed up as kristinafullyraw's recent video showed of her tests.

It took a year and a half of being on a raw vegan diet that was very low in fruit and 100 carbs a day for my blood sugar to even out an get back to a normal fbs. Once I was able to see that improvement I got tested again and my blood tests showed to be back within normal parameters. Bye Bye to high triglycerides and other blood work problems for me! High fat low carb raw was proven to be the remedy. The numbers don't lie.

Kristinafullyraw is a very naïve untrained young lady just believing what her Dr tells her to believe but her MD. really should know better, IMO. Just because an MD is raw vegan doesn't mean they are a good doctor or that they didn't fall into the lower percentiles of their class' grade point average, for instance.

Kristina's blood work was by no means optimal and should at least be better than the blood work of an old raw vegan lady's who eats 64% fat and isn't an athlete. It's not!"

Why are you giving me your life story? I don't care! I don't care if you do good on fruit or if you die on fruit. Means nothing to me.

I replied to jtprindl. I had no interaction with you until you pushed yourself in trying to get some attention, which I have given you enough now. Ba bye to you. (Don't blink your askew eyes on me! )

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anon 102 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SueZ Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Anon 102 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > >
> > > >>> the usual party line pabulum and
> > selectively
> > > evasive response<<<
> > >
> > >
> > > Good Lord, even your dunce hat is askew.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Actually it is your eyes that are askew. lol
>
> Your eyes can't seem to see beyond your stale
> party line beliefs. Here, let me bring it up
> closer for you...
>
> "My blood sugar, tryglcerides, and other lipid
> panel lab work was never screwed up before I was
> on lfhc raw for 11 months. After 11 months of that
> diet some of my lab work was as screwed up as
> kristinafullyraw's recent video showed of her
> tests.
>
> It took a year and a half of being on a raw vegan
> diet that was very low in fruit and 100 carbs a
> day for my blood sugar to even out an get back to
> a normal fbs. Once I was able to see that
> improvement I got tested again and my blood tests
> showed to be back within normal parameters. Bye
> Bye to high triglycerides and other blood work
> problems for me! High fat low carb raw was
> proven to be the remedy. The numbers don't lie.
>
> Kristinafullyraw is a very naïve untrained young
> lady just believing what her Dr tells her to
> believe but her MD. really should know better,
> IMO. Just because an MD is raw vegan doesn't mean
> they are a good doctor or that they didn't fall
> into the lower percentiles of their class' grade
> point average, for instance.
>
> Kristina's blood work was by no means optimal and
> should at least be better than the blood work of
> an old raw vegan lady's who eats 64% fat and isn't
> an athlete. It's not!"


Yes, various doctors who do seem to know what they are talking about report the same types of things with high carb low fat diets, and indeed there are peer reviewed papers which STRONGLY recommend against such dubious diets. I used to give the high fruit diet the benefit of the doubt until l saw Christina's highly questionable blood results, so now l think the research advising against high carb low fat applies to all diets of that nature whether they are raw, high fruit, refined carbs etc (naturally refined carbs would have a worse effect).

Now...some people are going to say that their blood results are perfect. I say, great. But, we must remember that we are not talking the excception here, we are talking the general observation made with low fat high carb diets is that it is very bad for health for many reasons. One of the possible reasons is that most people are said to be fast oxidisers, so blood results are going to be at risk of being messed up for most people on high carb low fat diets, and clearly the medical research does indicate this.

Given what the research says, and given Christina's questionable blood work, l ask myself what her doctor is thinking to make such light on the subject? I have heard other doctors raise alarm bells on this type of stuff and l recently posted a video of such doctors. Also, if you look at that video you will see the results were given on different dates, why? Why not do all the testing on one date, why do tests almost one week apart??? Something seems off imo.

Anon 102 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are you giving me your life story? I don't
> care! I don't care if you do good on fruit or if
> you die on fruit. Means nothing to me.
>
> I replied to jtprindl. I had no interaction with
> you until you pushed yourself in trying to get
> some attention, which I have given you enough now.
> Ba bye to you. (Don't blink your askew eyes on me!
> )


Lol. I have no doubt you'd rather people like me die than recover from a hclf glycation central hclf diet like I have - especially, horror of horrors for those of your party-liner ilk, by doing it on a high fat low carb raw vegan diet!!!

Of course you don't care, or want to hear about, the blood work results of my diet which you started a whole frigging troll thread on to learn about and which I patiently put up with from your sneering self...

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

Suez: I am sure there would be some hardcore low fat high carb folks that would love you to fail on high fat so they could say they told you so.

I am not anti low carb if it works, but l am anti low fat because l think low fat is a very bad idea in this day and age. What really disturbs me is how popular the high carb low fat diet is among raw vegans, but even more disturbing is the people promoting this diet as `the diet' despite the numerous people over the years reporting problems on such a diet. Just as disturbing is the non willingness of promotors to try and make adaptions to the diet or acknowledge it does not always work for people. It is like promoters of these types of diets prefer to sweep the issues under the carpet and not recognise them because it goes against their idealistic theories of fruigivores living in the Garden of Eden type of ideas. It is greatly disturbing and l feel so sorry for the niave kids and adults buying into these dubious ideas only to be chewed up by the high carb low fat diet...it is heart breaking to see and l actually have tears in my eyes thinking about it.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Suez: I am sure there would be some hardcore low
> fat high carb folks that would love you to fail on
> high fat so they could say they told you so.

The party-liners would rather people die on fruit diets than to be proven wrong. You must have missed this from anon101/anon102's post...

"I don't care if you do good on fruit or if
you die on fruit. Means nothing to me."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 12:33AM by SueZ.

Oh wow, l missed the word "die". I would have expected to see the word `bad' so l must have skipped over that word.

It is harsh talk and l am saddened by it.

"anon101/anon102's post..."

/John Rose

But yeah, these high-fruit folks (seems to be the men, not the women, perhaps due to lower long-chain fatty acid conversion?) are always viciously attacking others. Lots of insults and immaturity on their end, very telling about their mindset.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But yeah, these high-fruit folks (seems to be the
> men, not the women, perhaps due to lower
> long-chain fatty acid conversion?)

This sounds like it could be part of the problem.

I'd like to know who so many of them seem to be emotionally frozen at what seems to be around 12-16. It's weird.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

Reactive hypoglycemia, or postprandial hypoglycemia, is a medical term describing recurrent episodes of symptomatic hypoglycemia occurring within 4 hours[1] after a high carbohydrate meal (or oral glucose load) in people who do not have diabetes. It is thought to represent a consequence of excessive insulin release triggered by the carbohydrate meal but continuing past the digestion and disposal of the glucose derived from the meal.

Double vision or blurry vision
Unclear thinking
Sleeping Trouble
heart palpitation or fibrillation
fatigue
dizziness
light-headedness
sweating
headaches
depression
nervousness
muscle twitches
irritability
tremors
flushing
craving sweets
increased appetite
rhinitis
nausea, vomiting
panic attack
numbness/coldness in the extremities
confusion
coma can be a result in severe untreated episodes

Some researchers suggest that certain people may be more sensitive to the body’s normal release of the hormone epinephrine, which causes many of the symptoms of hypoglycemia. Others believe deficiencies in glucagon secretion might lead to reactive hypoglycemia.[1]

Stomach surgery or hereditary fructose intolerance are believed to be causes, albeit uncommon, of reactive hypoglycemia. myo-Inositol or D-chiro-inositol withdrawal can cause temporary reactive hypoglycemia.

fructose/glucose ratio of foods: [voluntocracy.org]

medjol dates: -1.73 (negative number indicates excess glucose)
bananas: -0.13



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 01:18AM by Panchito.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > But yeah, these high-fruit folks (seems to be
> the
> > men, not the women, perhaps due to lower
> > long-chain fatty acid conversion?)
>
> This sounds like it could be part of the problem.
>
>
> I'd like to know why so many of them seem to be
> emotionally frozen at what seems to be around
> 12-16. It's weird.

"Reactive hypoglycemia, or postprandial hypoglycemia, is a medical term describing recurrent episodes of symptomatic hypoglycemia occurring within 4 hours[1] after a high carbohydrate meal (or oral glucose load) in people who do not have diabetes. It is thought to represent a consequence of excessive insulin release triggered by the carbohydrate meal but continuing past the digestion and disposal of the glucose derived from the meal."

Carbohydrates in general give me no issues, high-fructose fruits (outside of watermelon) do. Berries, cherries, citrus and watermelon give me no problems whatsoever.

see my last correction to the post (bottom). Medjol dates have much more glucose than fructose. Rippen bananas have more glucuse than unripe. The darker the banana the more glucose.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> see my last correction to the post (bottom).
> Medjol dates have much more glucose than fructose.
> Rippen bananas have more glucuse than unripe. The
> darker the banana the more glucose.


It's not about the fructose/glucose ratio, it's about the total fructose content. One medjool date contains about 8 grams of fructose.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "anon101/anon102's post..."
>
> /John Rose
>
> But yeah, these high-fruit folks (seems to be the
> men, not the women, perhaps due to lower
> long-chain fatty acid conversion?) are always
> viciously attacking others. Lots of insults and
> immaturity on their end, very telling about their
> mindset.

Lots of people are noticing it too. A friend recently said to me in private "I don't understand why the fruitarians treat each other so poorly". They get rough, then the next moment they talk about loving others. It is almost like a schizophrenic personality or realising their poor behaviour and trying to talk about love to deflect away from their poor behaviour. I don't choose to signal anyone out, not Anon, not John, not anyone in particular. Things just don't make sense...various folks say one thing and then act completely different like they have no self realisation....like a delusion of sorts...like a psychosis. I have been reading up on sugar and mental issues to try and get some idea on what is going on because the idea of mentally unstable vegans caused by a high carb low fat fascinates me, l am completey wowed by it, and l am convinced that many don't fully realise their own behaviour because of some type of psychosis. I certainly don't think these people are completely crazy, but there does appear to be some slight mental disorder imo....like a partial psychosis with slight symptoms of schizophrenia or something. I just wish shrinks and doctors could do a proper study on this and publish it. Maybe we could contact Dr Wilson lol and ask him if he could talk to some docs about doing a study.

Again, it is not an attack on any individual or even a group of people, it is an observation made by myself and other people. It raises serious reg flags about high fruit low fat diets because it is commonly observed.

You might also want to read Raw Gosia's blog about the antics fruit eaters get up too. Wow, it certainly opened my eyes up....seems like there are very badly behaved men and women running about in the raw food scene,some may even use the word "maniac".

Recently a friend also pointed me to another vicious attack from a raw fooder to another and l was shocked at how low level this person had stooped,l was so sickened.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not about the fructose/glucose ratio, it's
> about the total fructose content. One medjool date
> contains about 8 grams of fructose.

it seems that the watermelon contradicts your theory

+1.78 Watermelon, way much higher on fructose than medjol dates. It would also depends on the glycemic load or total amount of food and the speed of its digestion and then the reaction. It could also be that some specific fruits trigger the release of epinephrine while others don't

the adrenals are really involved in carbs metabolism



[en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 01:44AM by Panchito.

"+1.78 Watermelon, way much higher on fructose than medjol dates."

Also has a much higher water content and I don't eat nearly as much calorie wise as I did with the dates. Melons digest the fastest of any foods. Either way, my experiences (both recently and previously) show an increase of skin damage (tiny freckles) with increases of fructose. Fructose in moderation is no problem, but many high-fruit eaters get the bulk of their calories from bananas and dates, which is not moderation. Again, these are just my experiences with fructose and I'm sure many high-fruit eaters can offset some of the damage by exercising copious amounts and burning lots of sugar off.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 01:55AM by jtprindl.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd like to know who so many of them seem to be
> emotionally frozen at what seems to be around
> 12-16. It's weird.


A few people have brought up the same issue, that is, childish behaviour among some of the high carb low fat vegans who consume fruit as most of their calories.

Again, this is not an attack on anyone or on a group, this is an observation made by various people on low fat high carb people eating lots of fruit.

Some people on low fat high fruit diets do well and are really mentally balanced and behave honourably, so the question is....do these diets suit people who's behaviour is cause for concern? Does the fruit bring out the maniac in some people, and if it does, should they be eating that type of diet??

I like Panchito, l like his antics and his mischeif and his pictures of heavy people and fancy charts, hier's antics are always cute and hier makes me laugh more than anyone on this forum by a long shot, heir is a sweety with a mischeify make-up. Panchito makes me smile because heir is more gentle, but heir still flies that flag for that low fat crew, pthhh.



It is good we can give a different perspective here from the usual high carb low fat stuff usually talked about. And it is good we can question the low fat high carb diet. I certainly hope no-one gets all funny about our conversation and gets angry about it, it is only talk and we don't want people to think we are talking about them in a negative light,it is only a general conversation based on observations.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 01:50AM by The Sproutarian Man.

[www.adrenalfatigue.org]

Quote

Adrenal Function in Hypoglycemia

Both stress and adrenal fatigue can contribute to hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) because of the key roles the adrenal hormones epinephrine, norepinephrine and cortisol play in blood sugar regulation. Stress (and the anticipation of stress) signals the body to raise blood sugar (glucose) levels in order to generate energy to respond to the stress. If the body cannot meet this higher demand for blood glucose, hypoglycemia can result. Stress may also provoke blood sugar swings that can have a cumulative effect on the body’s ability to maintain blood sugar balance, and aggravate hypoglycemic symptoms. In fact, some of the symptoms of hypoglycemia, such as irritability and nervousness, may sometimes be the effects of high levels of stress hormones rather than of the low blood sugar itself. During adrenal fatigue, when adrenal hormone levels are lower, it becomes harder to maintain blood sugar balance, especially in response the increased demand from stress.* It has been known for almost a century that people who are chronically hypoglycemic are often also experiencing adrenal fatigue, and that people going through adrenal fatigue almost always have some form of irregular blood sugar pattern.* Hypoglycemia is the most common of these.*

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>I like Panchito,


You know Panchito is not really raw, (80% is raw to him), and he eats a lot of fat.

I eat more nuts/fats than 801010 people and I am not full raw. I even had cooked vegan cake last weekend so my judgement now is impaired under the toxic load.

Does that destroy my image or what?