[treeoflifecenterus.com]

"So here’s letting “the fat out of the bag”: Saturated fats have nothing to do with heart disease. I will say it again. Saturated fat has nothing to do with heart disease. And every holistic physician knows that.

Heart disease is driven by inflammation.

It doesn’t matter whether your fat is low or your fat is high; if you are inflamed, there is a high chance that you are going to get heart disease. From just that one idea, everything about heart health and nutrition will start to make sense.

30 studies with a total of 150,000 people studied showed that people who had heart attacks had not eaten any more saturated fat or polyunsaturated oil than other people who had not had heart attacks (references included in footnotes).

Another huge study showed people with blood cholesterol of 160 developed just as many cholesterol plaques as people with higher cholesterol up to 260. How do you explain that? Again, simply, the plaques come from inflammation, not from cholesterol intake.

In light of these findings, it is interesting that without even trying to, I have found the healthiest results of any program I have seen in my career happening in our live, plant-sourced food cafe running at about 25-45% fat at the Tree of Life Center US. The performance outcomes of this dietary program, which is high in vegetables and nuts, are great when looked at through measures that matter – holistic measures. That is, we achieve the goal that we want, which is not lowering cholesterol, but is turning off the inflammation switch. This works because inflammation is the age-accelerating, disease-generating agent. With low inflammation, and plenty of dietary fat, your brain works better, you reverse heart disease, and you reverse diabetes, etc.

In the early 80?s I came across people on the 10% fat live-food diet, and noticed them having problems such as mental and physical imbalances, weakness, memory loss, and low vitality. I do not say avoid all carbohydrates. To me, the greens, sprouts, green vegetables, and low-glycemic fruits are the carbohydrates and do help my program be effective in lowering accelerated aging and reversing disease. When you have people in live food out there saying you shouldn’t have nuts and you shouldn’t have seeds, at that point we need to know the scientific data."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 01:44AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [treeoflifecenterus.com]
> l-cousens-m-d-holistic-veganism-letting-the-fat-ou
> t-of-the-bag-2/
>
> "So here’s letting “the fat out of the bag”:
> Saturated fats have nothing to do with heart
> disease. I will say it again. Saturated fat has
> nothing to do with heart disease. And every
> holistic physician knows that.
>
> Heart disease is driven by inflammation.

Not so fast. If saturated fat is LOADED with AGEs and AGEs damage the endothelial cells of the walls, then saturated fat is indeed the cause the of CVD

[plantricianproject.org]

"If saturated fat is LOADED with AGEs and AGEs damage the endothelial cells of the walls"

Fortunately, this isn't true. Also, AGE's aren't even that big of an issue with a diet rich in a variety of phytochemicals due to their protective effects (plenty of evidence of this). On top of that, research suggests that most AGE's from food are quickly eliminated/not absorbed and most AGE's within the body do not come from food.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 02:16AM by jtprindl.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "If saturated fat is LOADED with AGEs and AGEs
> damage the endothelial cells of the walls"
>
> Fortunately, this isn't true.

don't click the link bellow if you hate truth

Content of AGEs in food:

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

(fats are always high - carbs are always low even if cooked)

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > "If saturated fat is LOADED with AGEs and AGEs
> > damage the endothelial cells of the walls"
> >
> > Fortunately, this isn't true.
>
> don't click the link bellow if you hate truth
>
> Content of AGEs in food:
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
> 4/table/T1/
>
> (fats are always high - carbs are always low even
> if cooked)


The only thing that link shows is that cooking and pasteurizing results in the formation of AGE's. Source and quality is everything. The link also doesn't take into account the AGE's formed during the process of digestion.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only thing that link shows is that cooking and
> pasteurizing results in the formation of AGE's.

you need to put the TRUTH glasses in order to see the info. look at the truth:

AGE kU/100g

Oil, olive, extra virgin, first cold pressed (Colavita, Linden, NJ) 10,040
Oil, sesame (Asian Gourmet) 21,680

Juice, apple 2
Juice, orange, from fresh fruit 0

Now, based on the facts measured. What do you think makes more damage to the endothelial walls,

raw olive oil 10,040
Juice, apple 2

10,040 is 5 THOUSANDS times higher than 2!!! knock knock. Anybody home? That's what the study shows.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Quote

Advanced glycation end products evoke endothelial cell damage by stimulating soluble dipeptidyl peptidase-4 production and its interaction with mannose 6-phosphate/insulin-like growth factor II receptor.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 02:50AM by Panchito.

"Oil, olive, extra virgin, first cold pressed (Colavita, Linden, NJ) 10,040
Oil, sesame (Asian Gourmet) 21,680"

We've already been through this... this in no way indicates that the oils are raw. As far as extra-virgin olive oil and heart health goes...

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "CONCLUSIONS: In the absence of proven interventions for the primary prevention of atrial fibrillation, this post hoc analysis of the PREDIMED trial suggests that extravirgin olive oil in the context of a Mediterranean dietary pattern may reduce the risk of atrial fibrillation."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "CONCLUSIONS: Olive oil consumption, specifically the extra-virgin variety, is associated with reduced risks of cardiovascular disease and mortality in individuals at high cardiovascular risk."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "The study provides the first evidence that post-prandial oxidative stress may be triggered by NOX2 up-regulation. EVOO but not corn oil, is able to counteract such phenomenon suggesting that addition of EVOO to a Mediterranean diet protects against post-prandial oxidative stress".

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "The wide range of benefits associated with olive oil consumption could contribute to explaining the low rate of cardiovascular mortality found in southern European-Mediterranean countries, in comparison with other westernized countries, despite a high prevalence of coronary heart disease risk factors."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "These findings suggest that the dietary exchange of an olive oil and sunflower oil blend for extra virgin olive decreases LDL and apo AII levels, and the estimate of 10-year cardiovascular risk."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 03:16AM by jtprindl.

look. This is an expert on the benefits of olive oil and the mediterranean diet





This is an American expert on the benefits of high fat diets (her name is Sally Fallon). LOOK she got high fat freckles!!! I though you said you don't like freckles. I must be getting old must be the high AGEs of fruit



jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "The
> wide range of benefits associated with olive oil
> consumption could contribute to explaining the low
> rate of cardiovascular mortality found in southern
> European-Mediterranean countries, in comparison
> with other westernized countries, despite a high
> prevalence of coronary heart disease risk
> factors."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 08:04PM by Prana.

That response and those pictures have zero relevance to this conversation. I have an idea, since you like posting pictures so much... post your own.

According to the USDA Nutrition Evidence Library:

"What is the effect of saturated fat intake on increased risk of cardiovascular disease or type 2 diabetes?

"Conclusion

"Strong evidence indicates that dietary saturated fatty acids (SFA) are positively associated with intermediate markers and end-point health outcomes for two distinct metabolic pathways: 1) increased serum total cholesterol (TC) and LDL cholesterol (LDL-C) and increased risk of cardiovascular disease (CVD) and 2) increased markers of insulin resistance and increased risk of type 2 diabetes (T2D). Conversely, decreased SFA intake improves measures of both CVD and T2D risk. The evidence shows that a five percent energy decrease in SFA, replaced by monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) or polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), decreases risk of CVD and T2D in healthy adults and improves insulin responsiveness in insulin resistant and T2D subjects.


"Grade
"Strong"

[www.nel.gov]

If you go to the above link, there is also an Executive Summary Overview plus details of all the studies reviewed for forming the conclusion statement.

PLEASE NOTE that the question only addresses saturated fat, and is therefore not relevant to olive oil, which is only 14% saturated fat. Highly saturated fats are solid at room temperature.

The conclusion statement may also not have considered coconut oil, which is a highly saturated fat, but it is a medium-chain saturated fat and absorbed differently than the long-chain highly saturated fats from animal products. You would have to check the studies to determine which kinds of fats were used.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 06:47AM by suncloud.

Olive oil is considered to be a good source of monounsaturated fat (MUFA). See above Conclusion Statement.

That said, as a raw food vegan, I personally prefer whole food fats for their nutrient content. Whole foods such as nuts, seeds, avocado are often very good sources for many micronutrients - not just fat.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to the USDA Nutrition Evidence Library:
>
> "What is the effect of saturated fat intake on
> increased risk of cardiovascular disease or type 2
> diabetes?
>
> "Conclusion
>
> "Strong evidence indicates that dietary saturated
> fatty acids (SFA) are positively associated with
> intermediate markers and end-point health outcomes
> for two distinct metabolic pathways: 1) increased
> serum total cholesterol (TC) and LDL cholesterol
> (LDL-C) and increased risk of cardiovascular
> disease (CVD) and 2) increased markers of insulin
> resistance and increased risk of type 2 diabetes
> (T2D). Conversely, decreased SFA intake improves
> measures of both CVD and T2D risk. The evidence
> shows that a five percent energy decrease in SFA,
> replaced by monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) or
> polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), decreases risk
> of CVD and T2D in healthy adults and improves
> insulin responsiveness in insulin resistant and
> T2D subjects.
>
>
> "Grade
> "Strong"
>
> [www.nel.gov]
> d=250189
>
> If you go to the above link, there is also an
> Executive Summary Overview plus details of all the
> studies reviewed for forming the conclusion
> statement.
>
> PLEASE NOTE that the question only addresses
> saturated fat, and is therefore not relevant to
> olive oil, which is only 14% saturated fat.
> Highly saturated fats are solid at room
> temperature.
>
> The conclusion statement may also not have
> considered coconut oil, which is a highly
> saturated fat, but it is a medium-chain saturated
> fat and absorbed differently than the long-chain
> highly saturated fats from animal products. You
> would have to check the studies to determine which
> kinds of fats were used.


That stuff posted is old hat. In relation to diabetes 2, there is more to the story also...the story of inflammation is a big part of diabetes and the reason why high fat diets can turn on various people. Best not to simplify things the way it was done in the quoted post...the govt, dietitians, schools and Dept Of Ag is still in the old school. I think things will eventually change and the dreaded low fat school nonsense will realise it's error.

As for taking care of AGE's...l will post a study to address that tomorrow. There is no need to get scared about that type of stuff. Lou is high fat and he looks great, so does Gabriel. Runaway aging is not going to be a factor.

Here is a girl who is on an 80% fat diet and is 46 in this video, yet she looks much younger. She does zero carbs.

[www.youtube.com]

Mercola also does 70% fat.

The Maasal people are said eat up to 66% saturated fat and have little heart disease. The Inuit eat up to 75% saturated fat and never used to have much heart disease before processed foods and cigarettes became available. The Rendille are also said to eat about 63% saturated fat and have little heart disease. I'll need to check those things out more to make sure the Paleo site l took them from are not telling us fibs. Like with most vegan sites, you can never trust Paleo sites to be credible.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 08:56AM by The Sproutarian Man.

What are the reasons why the more fat, the better?
Before it was 64 percent, now 80 percent fat, no carb



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 09:28PM by CommonSenseRaw.

As I recall Stephanie does about 30 grams of carbs a day. Her carbs are from nutrient dense greens like kale. As I recall she has been on a ketogenic diet with no refeeding for 5 years. She did slip out of ketosis, due to stress, for a few days but that was it. The rest of the time she's been in ketosis.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2014 09:51PM by SueZ.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I recall Stephanie does about 30 grams of carbs
> a day. Her carbs are from nutrient dense greens
> like kale. As I recall she has been on a ketogenic
> diet with no refeeding for 5 years. She did slip
> out of ketosis, due to stress, for a few days but
> that was it. The rest of the time she's been in
> ketosis.

She is self trained and she does not to get the vegetarian thing at all as she posted this video saying yes, vegetarians can go on a ketogenic diet, but then proceeds to advise eggs, butter, and, get this, fish, lol. Nonetheless, I enjoy watching her videos and have learned a lot from them.

[www.youtube.com]

The Sproutarian Man Wrote (referring to suncloud's post above):
-------------------------------------------------------
> That stuff posted is old hat. In relation to
> diabetes 2, there is more to the story also...the
> story of inflammation is a big part of diabetes
> and the reason why high fat diets can turn on
> various people. Best not to simplify things the
> way it was done in the quoted post...the govt,
> dietitians, schools and Dept Of Ag is still in the
> old school. I think things will eventually change
> and the dreaded low fat school nonsense will
> realise it's error.

Hello Sproutarian Man,

I hope you will take a more thorough look at these studies. These studies are not "low fat school" at all. The evidence from these studies only applies to SATURATED fat. Most often, even a vegan with a very high fat intake will still consume a low intake of SATURATED fat.

Saturated fat is solid at room temperature. Vegan fats are not, with the exception of coconut oil, which contains lauric and stearic fatty acids, both of which have been associated with a reduction in the LDL-C/HDL-C ratio, and therefore a reduction in cardiovascular disease risk.

All fatty foods contain some saturated fats - even vegan foods like nuts and seeds. But the proportion of saturated fats to unsaturated fats in vegan foods is small.

According to Dr. Cousens' article, people in his program are on diets consisting of 25-45% vegan fat. If so, the percent of SATURATED fat in the diet is small!

[treeoflifecenterus.com]

The studies I posted above are not "old hat" and have no more to do with "the govt., dietitians, schools and Dept. Of Ag" than any study that you or Dr. Cousens have referred to. USDA merely collected the studies, which were performed all over the world. The studies were chosen based on relevance to the question and on a comprehensive checklist of procedures that indicate highest grades for methodology. Here's an example of the first study, including the Research Design and Implementation Criteria Checklist at the end.

[www.nel.gov]

You can find the checklist for all these studies by clicking on the rating symbols in the chart at the bottom of the link to the Conclusion Statement that I included in my original post.

[www.nel.gov]

I thought you liked evidence!

Again, this is not "low fat school" at all. This is saturated fat only. Saturated fat is solid at room temperature. Vegan fats are not, with the exception of coconut oil, which contain lauric and stearic fatty acids, both of which have been associated with a reduction in the LDL-C/HDL-C ratio, and therefore a reduction in cardiovascular disease risk.

> Mercola also does 70% fat.

Yes, according to Mercola. But he does 70% TOTAL fat, not 70% SATURATED fat.

[articles.mercola.com]

And Mercola eats meat. Should you eat meat because Mercola does? Do you eat meat?

> The Maasal people are said eat up to 66% saturated
> fat and have little heart disease.

Is there a credible reference for this number (a reference other than Mercola)? I would guess 66% is total fat, if anything - not saturated fat. For example whole milk is about 49% total fat, with 5 out of 8 grams saturated, i.e., about 30.6% saturated fat (5/8 of 49%).

[nutritiondata.self.com]

But regarding vegan fats, even a 100% fat vegan diet would not contain 66% saturated fats, because saturated fat makes up only a small percentage of the total fat content of plant-based fats, with the exception of coconut fat discussed above. Any vegan who wants to eat that much saturated fat, will have to eat almost exclusively coconuts.

And conclusions about Maasai are not necessarily correct. "Researcher George V. Mann wrote in 1978, 'We have collected hearts and aortae from 50 authenticated Maasai men who died of trauma and we found extensive atherosclerosis'...

"(An) explanation for the lack of reported heart attacks among the Maasai comes from their tragically short life expectancy. If life is cut short in one's 40s by an accident or an infection, plaques have not had enough time to produce a heart attack. Moreover, in a rural population with limited medical care and poor medical records, heart attacks may not be recognized or reported" (PCRM), 2014)

>The Inuit eat
> up to 75% saturated fat and never used to have
> much heart disease before processed foods and
> cigarettes became available.

I question the 75% figure for "saturated" fat. Wild meats are not often high in saturated fats. Pure whale oil for example is only 14.3% saturated fat (4g saturated fat out of 28g total fat), and over 54% monounsaturated fat. (15.2g monounsaturated fat out of 28g total fat).[nutritiondata.self.com]

Even a 100% fat vegan diet would not contain 75% saturated fats, because saturated fat makes up only a small percentage of the total fat content of plant-based fats, with the exception of coconut fat discussed above.

And conclusions about the Intuit are not necessarily correct. "A study from the University of Ottawa Heart Institute published in the Canadian Journal of Cardiology showed that cardiovascular disease has been at least as frequent among northern native populations as for others. Strokes have been particularly common, and life expectancy overall was found to be about a decade shorter. Heart disease seemed rare among northern native populations mainly because reporting of medical problems has been spotty." (PCRM)

The Rendille are also
> said to eat about 63% saturated fat and have
> little heart disease. I'll need to check those
> things out more to make sure the Paleo site l took
> them from are not telling us fibs. Like with
> most vegan sites, you can never trust Paleo sites
> to be credible.

I haven't looked for information about the Rendille, but Paleo sites are not the best resource for gathering information on plant-based fats. Do you eat meat?

Vegan diets do not contain the high quantity of saturated fat that a Paleo diet contains.

Suncloud:

I have read many studies telling that high fat is a bad idea, so no eyebrows raised here.

Now, l have a question for you....have you not been reading what l have been writing in the past few months and the studies l have been posting for pro fat and the problems with the studies supporting low cholesterol and the floors in the cholesterol/high fat/heart disease hypothesis and all the studies which run contrary to the floored studies supporting low fat etc?


You might want to scroll down half way to my most recent effort where I start off with the sentence "What is going on with cholesterol?"
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]


That is only the tip of the iceberg of what has been written on this subject. This idea that the high fat diet is dangerous is so debunked that l originally didn't want to reply to your post.

Hopefully you have a look at what l wrote, and if needed l can link you to some other writings if needed. Even the peer reviewed literature has called out a possible `medical scam' going on in regards to the low fat silliness being pushed by lobby groups such as the drug companies and food industry. With all the study l have dpone on the subject l personally do feel the low fat ideas pushed on the public is one of the most dangerous health scams ever put on the public....l have looked very carefull at ALL the medical literature (for and against low fat/high fat) to come to that conclusion.

TSM, Suncloud's posts of studies are on SATURATED fats not all fats. You seem to be missing this fact.

One thing l will say is that l don't think getting extreme energy highs or feeling all light in the head is a good thing in this world. I think that getting a solid energy that is slow burning and constant all day is the real perfection.

The problem with entense energy rushes that last 4 or 5 hours is that they eventually ease off, BUT when one finds a diet that can produce a strong and constant natural feeling energy that lasts from morning until bed without any ease up, then that is something pretty special. You want to feel great, feel grounded, and feel AS SOLID AS A ROCK all day long without any alteration of energy at all and to be 100% focussed.

Yesterday was a brilliant day. I felt solid and felt like l could have picked up mountains. No intense rush energy (silly energy), but powerful long lasting slow burning solid energy all day. I had 40oz of green sprout juice, seaweeds, algaes, lots of sprouted chia/flax with 1.5 large tablespoons of coconut fat and fermented nuts later. I felt like l was 100 foot tall and made of steel....no intense rush energy, just SOLID energy.

www.thesproutarian.com

I agree Sproutarian Man.

Except for my first few years as a raw vegan, I've never been a proponent of a low fat raw vegan diet. I think nuts and seeds are just fine and contribute many micronutrients to the diet in addition to just fat. But as long as a person likes LFRV and feels good on it, then fine. If they don't, then they shouldn't feel pressured to try to stay on it.

Many people seem to do OK on cooked food raw vegan diets, but the nutrient content is different.

I also think fruit is just fine. I love fruit and eat a lot of it. People will each choose the diet they feel is right for them. If for some reason they find it is not, they should feel free to change. No one should feel pressured.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 12:53AM by suncloud.

Yes Suncloud....one must do what they can sustain best, however l think sustaining low fat (below 15%) is a potential bad idea because there is less ALA to convert to EPA/DHA and some people report and show symptoms which line up with the research on low EPA/DHA and cholesterol levels when they go raw vegan. I don't see many doing well on low fat...many seem defensive on their diets (insecure), are prone to agression (mental issues) etc despite claiming being strong and healthy looking.

I could go on and on with calculations and science papers as to why l say below 15% fat is a bad idea and make a strong argument, but l don't have time right now.

We want strong bodies and good strong calm mind, but unfortunately we see many unsettled minds in raw veganism, and this tells me something is drastically wrong, and the more l look into this the more l am convinced that low fat is not working for most people. Non peaceful raw vegan minds are everywhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 01:08AM by The Sproutarian Man.

suncloud Wrote:

> Saturated fat is solid at room temperature. Vegan
> fats are not, with the exception of coconut oil,
> which contains lauric and stearic fatty acids,
> both of which have been associated with a
> reduction in the LDL-C/HDL-C ratio, and therefore
> a reduction in cardiovascular disease risk.


Correction: Stearic fatty acids can be synthesized from coconut oil, but native (unprocessed) coconut oil contains mostly lauric fatty acid plus smaller quantities of other fatty acids, including a very small quantity of stearic acid.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> suncloud Wrote:
>
> > Saturated fat is solid at room temperature.
> Vegan
> > fats are not, with the exception of coconut
> oil,
> > which contains lauric and stearic fatty acids,
> > both of which have been associated with a
> > reduction in the LDL-C/HDL-C ratio, and
> therefore
> > a reduction in cardiovascular disease risk.
>
>
> Correction: Stearic fatty acids can be
> synthesized from coconut oil, but native
> (unprocessed) coconut oil contains mostly lauric
> fatty acid plus smaller quantities of other fatty
> acids, including a very small quantity of stearic
> acid.
>
> [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


There is also cardiovascular healthy stearic acid containing cocoa butter!

Suncloud, we are on the same page about much of this stuff in relation to saturated fats and other issues mentioned here. In this post below l clear things up, and you will see we do think the same way on many things.





>suncloud Wrote:

>
> Hello Sproutarian Man,
>
> I hope you will take a more thorough look at these
> studies. These studies are not "low fat school" at
> all. The evidence from these studies only applies
> to SATURATED fat. Most often, even a vegan with a
> very high fat intake will still consume a low
> intake of SATURATED fat.


Yes, and l think that is the best way...to have a balanced 1:1 omega 3 - 6 ratio with some saturated fat.



> According to Dr. Cousens' article, people in his
> program are on diets consisting of 25-45% vegan
> fat. If so, the percent of SATURATED fat in the
> diet is small!

True, Dr Coisens recommends one tablespoon of coconut oil with a flax/chia meal or with AFA blue green algae, so maybe 6 tablespoons per week.

I was doing 3 tablespoons per week of coconut oil, but now l am experimenting and doing more because l find it works well for me.



>
> The studies I posted above are not "old hat" and
> have no more to do with "the govt., dietitians,
> schools and Dept. Of Ag" than any study that you
> or Dr. Cousens have referred to. USDA merely
> collected the studies, which were performed all
> over the world.



O.k, fair enough. I am about to read them all properly this morning.


> I thought you liked evidence!



I do!

> > Mercola also does 70% fat.
>
> Yes, according to Mercola. But he does 70% TOTAL
> fat, not 70% SATURATED fat.


True, but he is very high saturated fat. He has 3 - 4 tablespoons of coconut oil per day and many eggs.

Btw, l am not saying one should go high saturated fat because we want to build in a saftey factor of good levels of omega 3's to keep excessive inflammation away. All l am about is increasing the saturated fat somewhat to increase cholesterol, but never excessive saturated fat in the diet.

I have only posted studies of a group living off 50% saturated fat with no heart disease to make a strong point that saturated fat is not going to neccessarily contribute to heart disease because the LDL, HDL and total cholesterol measurements are not indicators of heart disease. If one is going to consume high saturated fat one should be consuming good levels of long chain omega 3's and have plenty of greens in the diet for good protection. If one is not consuming those things I feel that the LDL-P could risk turning inflammatory and contributing to CVD.

Once again, if one consumes high levels of saturated fat they are recommended to be consuming good levels of EPA/DHA fatty acids and perferably some greens. I don't think a diet needs to be high saturated fat...l only talked about the high saturated fat diet of people near the equator (50% saturated fat) to make a strong point.

As for making comments of some cultures `supposedly' living off 70% saturated fat, the point of this is to get people's attention so they think more about this vital subject and start questioning the low fat silliness that has brainwashed the public.


> > The Maasal people are said eat up to 66%
> saturated
> > fat and have little heart disease.
>
> Is there a credible reference for this number (a
> reference other than Mercola)?


LOL, not that l have found so far. As you know, the Paleo and Mercola sites are hardly known for their credibility. Those figures (rumours) were put there to grab poeople's attention to get them drawn into this subject. I used the words "are said" for good reason. The words "are said" = `rumoured'....therefore it means that no credible study has been able to confirm it yet.


> But regarding vegan fats, even a 100% fat vegan
> diet would not contain 66% saturated fats, because
> saturated fat makes up only a small percentage of
> the total fat content of plant-based fats, with
> the exception of coconut fat discussed above. Any
> vegan who wants to eat that much saturated fat,
> will have to eat almost exclusively coconuts.


Agreed.

>
> And conclusions about Maasai are not necessarily
> correct. "Researcher George V. Mann wrote in
> 1978, 'We have collected hearts and aortae from 50
> authenticated Maasai men who died of trauma and we
> found extensive atherosclerosis'...



Interesting, and nothing would suprise me. I would never trust those paleo people to come up with solid facts on many things, that is why they rarely quote proper studies.


>
> "(An) explanation for the lack of reported heart
> attacks among the Maasai comes from their
> tragically short life expectancy. If life is cut
> short in one's 40s by an accident or an infection,
> plaques have not had enough time to produce a
> heart attack. Moreover, in a rural population
> with limited medical care and poor medical
> records, heart attacks may not be recognized or
> reported" (PCRM), 2014)


Yes. I well believe it, l have not got around to investigating them yet, but lwill be.



> I question the 75% figure for "saturated" fat.


Yes, probably another Paleo exaggeration, they are good at twisting facts. I was not posting these figures as facts,it was to draw people into this topic. Remember, l used the words "are said" for good reason, l would never state these things as fact unless l had the studies to prove it.



>
> And conclusions about the Intuit are not
> necessarily correct. "A study from the University
> of Ottawa Heart Institute published in the
> Canadian Journal of Cardiology showed that
> cardiovascular disease has been at least as
> frequent among northern native populations as for
> others. Strokes have been particularly common,
> and life expectancy overall was found to be about
> a decade shorter. Heart disease seemed rare among
> northern native populations mainly because
> reporting of medical problems has been spotty."
> (PCRM)



Good point.

>

>
> I haven't looked for information about the
> Rendille, but Paleo sites are not the best
> resource for gathering information on plant-based
> fats.

Very true.



>Do you eat meat?


No.


Yes, and l think that is the best way...to have a balanced 1:1 omega 3 - 6 ratio with some saturated fat.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/31/2014 11:01PM by The Sproutarian Man.

"Yes, and l think that is the best way...to have a balanced 1:1 omega 3 - 6 ratio with some saturated fat."

What about 2:1 in favor of omega-3's? You think this would offer even more cognitive benefits?

Thanks for your post Sproutarian Man!

Thanks for the cocoa butter info SueZ!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to the USDA Nutrition Evidence Library:


>

> "What is the effect of saturated fat intake on
> increased risk of cardiovascular disease or type 2
> diabetes?
>
> "Conclusion
>
> "Strong evidence indicates that dietary saturated
> fatty acids (SFA) are positively associated with
> intermediate markers and end-point health outcomes
> for two distinct metabolic pathways: 1) increased
> serum total cholesterol (TC) and LDL cholesterol
> (LDL-C) and increased risk of cardiovascular
> disease (CVD) and 2) increased markers of insulin
> resistance and increased risk of type 2 diabetes
> (T2D). Conversely, decreased SFA intake improves
> measures of both CVD and T2D risk. The evidence
> shows that a five percent energy decrease in SFA,
> replaced by monounsaturated fatty acids (MUFA) or
> polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA), decreases risk
> of CVD and T2D in healthy adults and improves
> insulin responsiveness in insulin resistant and
> T2D subjects.
>
>
> "Grade
> "Strong"
>
> [www.nel.gov]
> d=250189


O.k...it's time l got down to business and had some proper discussion here.

Yes, Insulin resistance is another factor we need to take into account with the saturated fat diet. Can we fix this problem?...oh yes, it looks like we most certainly can. As with the diet l promote, if you are goping to have higher levels of saturated fat you MUST be doing certain things to protect yourself from inflammation and insulin resistance. The key is to be able to consume or convert good levels of long chain omega 3 fatty acids (EPA/DHA) without saturated fat and omega 6's and omega 9's being excessive (things must be in good balance), to consume a good amount of fiber and to avoid processed food,+ l always say to add in the greens for various reasons such as good FMD reduction of chance of plaques caused by oxidative stress. I say these things because the studies back it up. Soon l will document all this in fine detail on put it on my site.

Lets look at the studies at reducing insulin resistance caused from various fats (saturated, omega 6 and omega 9's) and how we can fix it. I will first show rat studies and then we will show how this translates to humans.

Influence of Dietary Fat Composition on Development of Insulin Resistance in Rats: Relationship to Muscle Triglyceride and ?-3 Fatty Acids in Muscle Phospholipid

Leonard H Storlien, Arthur B Jenkins
[diabetes.diabetesjournals.org]


Highlights are:

Diets high in saturated, monounsaturated (?-9), or polyunsaturated (?-6) fatty acids led to severe insulin resistance.

Substituting 11% of fatty acids in the polyunsaturated fat diet with long-chain ?-3 fatty acids from fish oils normalized insulin action.

Similar replacement with short-chain ?-3 (?-linolenic acid, 18:3?3) was ineffective in the polyunsaturated diet but completely prevented the insulin resistance induced by a saturated-fat diet


WOW, pretty interesting stuff!!! See, short chain can prevent insulin resistance in saturated fat but not in poly fats, but when long chain omega 3's are used it can prevent I.R of poly fats and saturated fats. This is exactly why we need to use coconut fat with chia/flax meals...we need to maximise conversion of the highly important EPA/DHA long chain omega 3 fats....the studies PROVE this is the best way to make the conversion for vegans (I have these studies in my files and have posted them online too).




Fish oil prevents insulin resistance induced by high-fat feeding in rats

LH Storlien, EW Kraegen et al
[www.sciencemag.org]


Diets high in fat from vegetable and nonaquatic animal sources (rich in linoleic acid, an omega-6 fatty acid, and saturated fats) lead to insulin resistance. In rats fed high-fat diets, replacement of only 6 percent of the linoleic omega-6 fatty acids from safflower oil with long-chain polyunsaturated omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil prevented the development of insulin resistance


I could post various studies and go on and on, but lets get to humans.


Diabetes is related to fatty acid imbalance in Eskimos

Ebbesson SO, Kennish J et al
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Increase in insulin resistance in Eskimos because they are haing less fish (high in omega 3 long chains fats) and eating more processed foods and high levels of saturated fat. So less fiber and less short chain and long chain omega 3's.


I could go on and on, but l am sure you get the point. There IS solutions to the above quoted stuff on I.R caused by saturated and other fats.


O.k...lam getting back to read your quoted studies Suncloud.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2014 12:12AM by The Sproutarian Man.

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Yes, and l think that is the best way...to have a
> balanced 1:1 omega 3 - 6 ratio with some saturated
> fat."
>
> What about 2:1 in favor of omega-3's?

Some people have suggested we can safely do much more omega 3 ALA in the diet, but no studies have been done on this and we still need to be careful to get enough omega 6's, so it might be possible to do 2 parts omega 3 - 1 part omega 6 but l can't say for sure.


>You think
> this would offer even more cognitive benefits?


I don't think it would. I think the body will only convert what it needs. I still think everything should be done in moderation and balance. Having a decent sized meal of chia and flax three days per week is plenty imo. But, that being said, you might want to do an experiment over a few months and see how it goes and get a blood test, and then do 1:1 for a few months and get another blood test and compare the difference in results and how you feel.


Last point =

* the store bought coconut fat is definitely not the high quality saturated fat that we should be having, the studies do say this, so we must implement protective measures when taking saturated fat.

* yes...it looks like Dr Clement is right when he said that eating coconut fat in New York etc is not the same as being in the tropics. Us city folk need to implement safety measures when eating higher fats.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2014 12:27AM by The Sproutarian Man.

The only issue I see with studies done on saturated fats and their negative effects are that many of them do not single out the source of the saturated fat or take other dietary/lifestyle habits & the effects of cooking into consideration. There are studies which prove virgin coconut oil is actually anti-inflammatory, but virgin coconut oil is primarily saturated fat.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "VCO exhibited an inhibitory effect on chronic inflammation by reducing the transudative weight, granuloma formation, and serum alkaline phosphatase activity. VCO also showed a moderate analgesic effect on the acetic acid-induced writhing response as well as an antipyretic effect in yeast-induced hyperthermia. The results obtained suggest anti-inflammatory, analgesic, and antipyretic properties of VCO"

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] - "Antioxidant enzymes were increased and on treatment with PV. The increased level of total WBC count and C-reactive protein in the arthritic animals was reduced in PV treated rats. Synovial cytology showed that inflammatory cells and reactive mesothelial cells were suppressed by PV. Histopathology of paw tissue showed less edema formation and cellular infiltration on supplementation with PV. Thus the results demonstrated the potential beneficiary effect of PV on adjuvant induced arthritis in rats and the mechanism behind this action is due to its antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects"